Social Welfare cut but Public Service Pay not ?

Leiva

I really do not want to start off the Private 'v' Public employee argument again , but this to me is one of the most unfair aspects of the 2011 Budget .

The Croke Park agreement done great to protect existing jobs in the Public Service (fair play) but it should not stop the tide going out for public service employee's when everyone else is going down .

If Wages/Welfare are been lowered it should be across the Public service aswell.

The Croke Park agreement is just another failed contract by the same people that have been agreeing contracts for the future of our country for decades to come ...This does not inspire confidence .:(

Poccington

mixednuts wrote: »

I really do not want to start off the Private 'v' Public employee argument again , but this to me is one of the most unfair aspects of the 2011 Budget .

The Croke Park agreement done great to protect existing jobs in the Public Service (fair play) but it should not stop the tide going out for public service employee's when everyone else is going down .

If Wages/Welfare are been lowered it should be across the Public service aswell.

The Croke Park agreement is just another failed contract by the same people that have been agreeing contracts for the future of our country for decades to come ...This does not inspire confidence .:(

It was lowered long before the Welfare took a 4% hit.

_michelle_

Poccington wrote: »

It was lowered long before the Welfare took a 4% hit.

Really what about the christmas bonus that was abolished :rolleyes:?? Thats not a cut, because as far as I'm concerned & anyone else who every got it, it was a substancial cut!

wonderfulname

In all fairness the change in take home pay for a public servant over the past few years has been quite large, there's only so much someone's income can be cut, their expenditure and debts are generally two irreversibly high.

EI111

well there is a pretty significant increase in tax as public sector pension contributions are now subject to prsi as well as salaries in general being taxed more due to decreased tax credits so it balances out.

kippy

Public servants pay WILL be cut again in the next three years - just not this particular budget.
Gross pay in the public sector is still about %10-15% too high.

While they have taken cuts already in the past 24 months the tax increases for them (as well as all workers) really is a cut in pay without the name.

Absurdum

_michelle_ wrote: »

Really what about the christmas bonus that was abolished :rolleyes:?? Thats not a cut, because as far as I'm concerned & anyone else who every got it, it was a substancial cut!

you answered your own question - it was a bonus

Max Power1

IMO the dole wasnt cut enough.

As a low-medium earner my net pay is decreasing by almost 10% next year from this. €188 per week is still WAY too high for social welfare payments.

cursai

WTF....of course its cut. once again here and will be again.
4% is pathetic! its very uncool to say that but its true.
Riding the Middle Class. Didnt know i was middle class. Never had any class in my life. If a nation is judged on how we treat our weakest.....we must be in utopia

Poccington

_michelle_ wrote: »

Really what about the christmas bonus that was abolished :rolleyes:?? Thats not a cut, because as far as I'm concerned & anyone else who every got it, it was a substancial cut!

It was a bonus.

What about my wages being cut every single week of the year? You can ram your christmas bonus,.

wonderfulname

Max Power1 wrote: »

IMO the dole wasnt cut enough.

As a low-medium earner my net pay is decreasing by almost 10% next year from this. €188 per week is still WAY too high for social welfare payments.

I think its about right for someone who's actively seeking work, there should be a severe cut/ switch to food and utilities stamps once someone can be categorised as long term unemployed.

Max Power1

wonderfulname wrote: »

I think its about right for someone who's actively seeking work, there should be a severe cut/ switch to food and utilities stamps once someone can be categorised as long term unemployed.

I agree totally.

I would have favoured no change to JSB and a 25% cut in JSA

nick 56

we are in a bad way , why because of the incompetent government and its builder / developer mates. all aided even encoraged by corrupt bankers handing out cash like crazy.

Who do we blame --- council workers, teachers, etc.

Is it that we are frightend to tackle the real causes i think so. don't like the way things are find an easy target, Its the nurses obviouse aint it

PS did you have a SSIA account, 25% on top of what you saved after 5 years out of the public purse.

Anybody offering to give it back?

Lockstep

Poccington wrote: »

It was a bonus.

What about my wages being cut every single week of the year? You can ram your christmas bonus,.

Out of interest:
IIRC, enlisted troop pay is fairly low to begin with, is it being cut by much?

_michelle_

Poccington wrote: »

It was a bonus.

What about my wages being cut every single week of the year? You can ram your christmas bonus,.

Well I wasnt looking for a slagging match but if your going to start go right ahead........ I can ram my christmas bonus where exactly?? Would you like me to have told my children that when Santa couldnt get a few essential for Christmas? Sorry for your wages being cut but nobody can say that it wasnt a cut as it was, simple as!

Let's not forget that public servents so a job, those on the scratch don't.

Poccington

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Out of interest:
IIRC, enlisted troop pay is fairly low to begin with, is it being cut by much?

While I can't remember the exact figure, I'm down over 100 quid.

_michelle_ wrote: »

Well I wasnt looking for a slagging match but if your going to start go right ahead........ I can ram my christmas bonus where exactly?? Would you like me to have told my children that when Santa couldnt get a few essential for Christmas? Sorry for your wages being cut but nobody can say that it wasnt a cut as it was, simple as!

Someone came on here saying how can they cut welfare and not cut PS pay. I pointed out PS cut has already taken a knock before welfare did.

It wasn't cut, you lost a bonus!

wonderfulname

_michelle_ wrote: »

Well I wasnt looking for a slagging match but if your going to start go right ahead........ I can ram my christmas bonus where exactly?? Would you like me to have told my children that when Santa couldnt get a few essential for Christmas? Sorry for your wages being cut but nobody can say that it wasnt a cut as it was, simple as!

I do have to agree, it was a bonus by name only, you can't say the private sector was any different with christmas bonuses in the boom years, it was assumed income, and household budgets were set accordingly.

kippy

RoverJames wrote: »

Let's not forget that public servents so a job, those on the scratch don't.

Okay, I dont like the term "on the scratch" (think it should be banned site wide to be honest) - many of these people would love to have a job and many are well able to work. The jobs just arent there.
And no amount of "Knocking on doors" as Bill Cullen says, will change that.
Government policy and a growing economy will.
I dont see anything in this budget that is a drastic improvement on government policy on job creation and I sure as hell didnt see anything in it to allow for economic growth.

_michelle_

RoverJames wrote: »

Let's not forget that public servents so a job, those on the scratch don't.

I am horrified that your would refer to the Job Seekers Allowance/Benefit as "On the scratch" have you no respect for the hardship that many people endure while receiving such a payment? Typical Public servant talk:mad: (Not nice is it to be tar-ed with a sweeping statement!)

_michelle_

Poccington wrote: »

While I can't remember the exact figure, I'm down over 100 quid.



Someone came on here saying how can they cut welfare and not cut PS pay. I pointed out PS cut has already taken a knock before welfare did.

It wasn't cut, you lost a bonus!

Yes it is a cut, if you get something one year & not the next then that is a cut wether you want to accept it or not is a different matter!

cson

_michelle_ wrote: »

Yes it is a cut, if you get something one year & not the next then that is a cut wether you want to accept it or not is a different matter!

A necessary cut though; I'm unsure of when the 'Bonus' came into operation but it and the level of JSA were based upon revenues from a growing economy which were substantial at the time. Both [Bonus; Economy] are gone as a consequence.

0O7

Max Power1 wrote: »

IMO the dole wasnt cut enough.

As a low-medium earner my net pay is decreasing by almost 10% next year from this. €188 per week is still WAY too high for social welfare payments.

hit the nail on the head....

its a pure joke... get €360 for workin 40hours (average)
get 188 for doing nothing...
its like gettin 172 to work....

cson

0O7 wrote: »

hit the nail on the head....

its a pure joke... get €360 for workin 40hours (average)
get 188 for doing nothing...
its like gettin 172 to work....

I'm a big proponent for Social Welfare reform but I must say your post is highly disingenuous.

It is not a choice for some people whether to work or claim JSA - some simply can't obtain employment at the present time.

0O7

the dole or "the scratch" as somebody called it is designed to survive, not live the life. get a job if you want better.

188euro is far too much.

what do ye excpect????? put a new public servant down 10% so after tax etc he will be coming out with 320, maybe he should be cut again so that he / she be better off not working????


and btw i know somebody on the dole that states he is "on the scratch" and has no intention of working as he figures its not worth the bother in this country when you can have everything for free if you dont work

Gavin "shels"

_michelle_ wrote: »

Really what about the christmas bonus that was abolished :rolleyes:??

I don't get a bonus in work, why should you get a bonus on the dole?

_michelle_ wrote: »

Would you like me to have told my children that when Santa couldnt get a few essential for Christmas? Sorry for your wages being cut but nobody can say that it wasnt a cut as it was, simple as!

No you tell them Santa didn't have time to make everything or something along them lines.


As for the OP, my mother is a civil servent and is by no means on a huge wage, her pay over the last 2 years has been cut by 16% and shes working more hours a week. Myself, I'm a college student (increase of €500 in my reg fee) and on minimum wage, which I've been cut down to in the summer, if my wage goes down to the new €7.65 I'll have taken 16% decrease in wages in 5 months. NOw go back and ask yourself why Social Welfare was only cut by 4%.:rolleyes:

kippy

0O7 wrote: »

the dole or "the scratch" as somebody called it is designed to survive, not live the life. get a job if you want better.

188euro is far too much.

what do ye excpect????? put a new public servant down 10% so after tax etc he will be coming out with 320, maybe he should be cut again so that he / she be better off not working????


and btw i know somebody on the dole that states he is "on the scratch" and has no intention of working as he figures its not worth the bother in this country when you can have everything for free if you dont work

I've stated once or twice on this forum that "I am an idiot/fool" (fairly recently)
I wouldnt like people to make the justification that public servants are idiots/fool just because I stated I was an idiot/fool? Or that because I said it, public servants mustnt mind that being said about them. Because that is what you are implying.

I am not making arguments about the figures, just the terms.

_michelle_

_michelle_ wrote: »

I am horrified that your would refer to the Job Seekers Allowance/Benefit as "On the scratch" have you no respect for the hardship that many people endure while receiving such a payment? Typical Public servant talk:mad: (Not nice is it to be tar-ed with a sweeping statement!)

I'm not a public servent I was out of work myself a few years back

One third of jobseekers or whatever the correct term is were on the dole during the boom and always will be. It's there benefit that should be cut.

caseyann

Absurdum wrote: »

you answered your own question - it was a bonus

It was a bonus for kids not for parents,when things are at their most difficult :rolleyes:
Prices of presents etc.. should be cut or they should ban advertisement of anything out of reach for lower paid parents and those on social welfare.:) Instead of rubbing it in their faces.

Rodin

0O7 wrote: »

hit the nail on the head....

its a pure joke... get €360 for workin 40hours (average)
get 188 for doing nothing...
its like gettin 172 to work....

40 * 7.65 = 306 euro. Before tax.

caseyann

Gavin shels wrote: »

I don't get a bonus in work, why should you get a bonus on the dole?



No you tell them Santa didn't have time to make everything or something along them lines.

Because kids are thick?
Your boss is a stinge lol Who do you work for i worked for cadbury chocolate before and they wouldnt even give you a lousy creme egg for a Christmas bonus not even a party lol
The cuts to welfare are not bad and 8 euro a week extra isnt going to but any presents in this country anyway unless its a yo yo.
The bonus was the presents if you can buy presents and underwear for two or three kids on 300 euro or less.The main pay still goes on food bills and heating.

0O7

0O7 wrote: »

the dole or "the scratch" as somebody called it is designed to survive, not live the life. get a job if you want better.

I'd love a job. Considering I'm qualified ( and experienced) as both a Credit Controller, and also a Teacher, I'm sending out resume's daily for both positional types. I'm also sending out resumes for anything I'm even remotely qualified for, and guess what? No freaking jobs.

and btw i know somebody on the dole that states he is "on the scratch" and has no intention of working as he figures its not worth the bother in this country when you can have everything for free if you dont work

We all know one or two people pissing about because of the dole. On the other hand though we all know dozens of people out of work, on welfare, and actively looking for work. Its a pity that people like you have to look at a minority, and pass it off as the majority.

0O7

Rodin wrote: »

40 * 7.65 = 306 euro. Before tax.

i was going by 9 euro per hour

caseyann

0O7 wrote: »

i was going by 9 euro per hour

I think if you break down the social welfare payment into full time hours it works out something like 5 euro an hour full time and more partime if they were working.

rasper

RoverJames wrote: »

I'm not a public servent I was out of work myself a few years back

One third of jobseekers or whatever the correct term is were on the dole during the boom and always will be. It's there benefit that should be cut.

Just because there was a consistent unemployment rate of 4% 150k during the bubble years(one of the lowest in EU) it doesnt mean it was the same 150k people all along, most of these people are just between jobs , finished exams , recently let go, etc
Maybe 10-20% of that 4% may be long term unemployed or even unemployable,

0O7

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love a job. Considering I'm qualified ( and experienced) as both a Credit Controller, and also a Teacher, I'm sending out resume's daily for both positional types. I'm also sending out resumes for anything I'm even remotely qualified for, and guess what? No freaking jobs.



.

would you not take a job that requires no qualification??? I saw a topaz looking for people 2 weeks ago!

just edited.... sorry i dont mean to be offensive

Browney7

Will any government ever have the political will to not just look at the figures straight up but to actually look at where the figures come from.

I'd have no problem with the following. We spend X amount on social welfare which is made up of lets say 30% newly unemployed, 40% medium term unemployed and 20% percent long term unemployed and 10% who have never worked a day in their lives. Then cut accordingly such as no cut to newly unemployed, 15% cut to medium term unemployed, 25% cut to long term unemployed and 50% cut to the rest (I'm only plucking these figures out of thin air so don't hang me from the rafters).

I have absolutely no problem with someone who has worked for the past 10 years having paid income tax and PRSI for those years getting full Job seekers for 18 to 24 months because it's a serious shock to the system to be made unemployed through no fault of your own.

The same could be said for those in public sector. No cut for lower paid, 10% cut for middle managers and the likes and 20% for higher paid civil servants.

Surely it can't be that hard to implement something like this

ainetravels

is the job seeker allowance cut on just new applicants or is it on existing ones aswell?

0O7

ainetravels wrote: »

is the job seeker allowance cut on just new applicants or is it on existing ones aswell?

existing!

Blondini

mixednuts wrote: »

I really do not want to start off the Private 'v' Public employee argument again

This is exactly what you are doing. Let me tell you a story.

After I graduated I was a private sector worker up until 2002.

I then voluntarily left the private sector and took a public sector job for much much much less money because I wanted a change in direction. My choice - no regrets.

I earn less now in 2010 in the public sector than I did in 2002 in the private sector.

When I made this decision every single person that I knew thought I was mad because I was basically "demoting myself" , "throwing my career away" ,"heading for financial ruin" and I actually had people laugh at me.

Now fast forward to 2010 and guess what .. From these same people I now hear "You're a cute hoor" , "Sure you're paid too much" , "Why don't you take a pay cut" etc etc et-f*ckin-cetera

I am sick of the hypocrisy and short-term memory of the f*ckin Joe Duffy and Indo masses. Jumping on any bandwagon regardless of the facts.

Sick of it.

ainetravels

so it is just

targeting

people looking for work? and not job seeker benefit or back to education schemes etc etc??

Bogger77

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love a job. Considering I'm qualified ( and experienced) as both a Credit Controller, and also a Teacher, I'm sending out resume's daily for both positional types. I'm also sending out resumes for anything I'm even remotely qualified for, and guess what? No freaking jobs.

PM sent, based on your location

istabrac77

They should drop th dole to 100 euros if you are on it for more than 12mths. As it stands long term unemployment is a profession.

whiteandlight

As a fully qualified teacher with experience in the classroom with the latest curriculum and having lectured it too (to teachers twice my age) to try and get my CV as good as I can I really resent the 10% pay cut to incoming people.

This means that every part time teacher (and there are a lot of them in 2nd level at least) will be taking at least a 10% paycut next September when our contracts are renewed while there are teachers above us on salaries that we will never see in our lifetime who will not take this cut. In addition this budget has stated that all incoming staff will start at level 1 on the payscale. If this applies to teachers this means despite experience and post graduate qualifications we will never get a pay rise for the foreseeable future while once again those on huge public service pensions (I'm talking 70k plus) and those who managed to get the elusive permanent job before the jobs freeze are immeasurably better off than us. The average 2nd level teacher spends 7 years before they get any sniff of a permanent contract. That means 7 years with no pay increase at all.

Just as a comparison. 2 years ago when starting a one year contract I received 39077. Next September the same work and qualifications will get me: 33352. This is a full 15% cut before any of the extra taxes etc get applied to it.

Now I know that the country is in recession and I know that many people think we dont work hard enough (for another thread but I wouldn't mind working more in the summer) but my BEEF with all of this is the fact that its only us young public servants being hit with this extra 10%? It is so unfair and its because of the croke park agreement. If everyone had been hit (particularly higher earners e.g. consultants etc) then it could have been spread better. This is aimed at the under 30s and is rotten.

_michelle_

0O7 wrote: »

the dole or "the scratch" as somebody called it is designed to survive, not live the life. get a job if you want better.

188euro is far too much.

what do ye excpect????? put a new public servant down 10% so after tax etc he will be coming out with 320, maybe he should be cut again so that he / she be better off not working????


and btw i know somebody on the dole that states he is "on the scratch" and has no intention of working as he figures its not worth the bother in this country when you can have everything for free if you dont work

So what because one person says he doesnt want a job all the other 400,000 od thousand are the same. God would you get a grip on reality!

wonderfulname

istabrac77 wrote: »

They should drop th dole to 100 euros if you are on it for more than 12mths. As it stands long term unemployment is a profession.

I agree to a point, I think there should be food stamps or the like, 100e is still fine for a single person, in fact with rent allowance I'd be able to live a pretty ok lifestyle on that, I could even fit in a trip or two to the offie. On the other hand for someone with dependants it could spell the end of them.
Give people on the dole that long what they need to survive without room for luxury expenditure like fags, drink or drugs (and I'm not saying that everyone spends the dole on that, just that in the minority, but none the less notable no. of cases that abuse the system). The only way to do that is to budget for them, i.e. food/utility stamps.

kippy

Musicmental85 wrote: »

As a fully qualified teacher with experience in the classroom with the latest curriculum and having lectured it too (to teachers twice my age) to try and get my CV as good as I can I really resent the 10% pay cut to incoming people.

This means that every part time teacher (and there are a lot of them in 2nd level at least) will be taking at least a 10% paycut next September when our contracts are renewed while there are teachers above us on salaries that we will never see in our lifetime who will not take this cut. In addition this budget has stated that all incoming staff will start at level 1 on the payscale. If this applies to teachers this means despite experience and post graduate qualifications we will never get a pay rise for the foreseeable future while once again those on huge public service pensions (I'm talking 70k plus) and those who managed to get the elusive permanent job before the jobs freeze are immeasurably better off than us. The average 2nd level teacher spends 7 years before they get any sniff of a permanent contract. That means 7 years with no pay increase at all.

Just as a comparison. 2 years ago when starting a one year contract I received 39077. Next September the same work and qualifications will get me: 33352. This is a full 15% cut before any of the extra taxes etc get applied to it.

Now I know that the country is in recession and I know that many people think we dont work hard enough (for another thread but I wouldn't mind working more in the summer) but my BEEF with all of this is the fact that its only us young public servants being hit with this extra 10%? It is so unfair and its because of the croke park agreement. If everyone had been hit (particularly higher earners e.g. consultants etc) then it could have been spread better. This is aimed at the under 30s and is rotten.

It sucks but theres a history of this in the public service - pre and post 1995 for one and indeed I believe there have been differences to the pensions in a few phases of the public service.

_michelle_

cson wrote: »

A necessary cut though; I'm unsure of when the 'Bonus' came into operation but it and the level of JSA were based upon revenues from a growing economy which were substantial at the time. Both [Bonus; Economy] are gone as a consequence.

Well just lucky I'm not reliant on it eh?? Wouldnt want you in power would we.....:rolleyes:

whiteandlight

Differences in pensions yes but an extra 10% ontop of 5% cuts and upped taxes sucks royally. I wish I'd been born 4/5 years earlier!

_michelle_

Gavin shels wrote: »

I don't get a bonus in work, why should you get a bonus on the dole?



No you tell them Santa didn't have time to make everything or something along them lines.


As for the OP, my mother is a civil servent and is by no means on a huge wage, her pay over the last 2 years has been cut by 16% and shes working more hours a week. Myself, I'm a college student (increase of €500 in my reg fee) and on minimum wage, which I've been cut down to in the summer, if my wage goes down to the new €7.65 I'll have taken 16% decrease in wages in 5 months. NOw go back and ask yourself why Social Welfare was only cut by 4%.:rolleyes:

Wow so what about the cut in the last two budgets?? Not a cut eh..... Really I would of thought a "Free" college education would of thought you more!;)

kippy

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Differences in pensions yes but an extra 10% ontop of 5% cuts and upped taxes sucks royally. I wish I'd been born 4/5 years earlier!

Not just pension differences..........

Yep, it sucks royally but my friend, that is life sadly.
I could point out to you 10 things that the "youth" have had in the past few years that may never be seen again, and the same for recent pensioners of every sector.