Mary Robinson tells it like it is

drkpower · 07-12-2010 04:28PM

Biggins wrote: »

Jeasus!
Are we not allowed to do those things with our weekly wages - that we all worked for?

Fcuk! I must slave away then 5 days a week and live the life of a hermit!

Would those be the excessive wages in the public sector?
Or the wages paid by private sector companies whose profits were being sustained by the bulging propert ysector, and who themselves were borrowing and expanding to rapidly?

And when you bought these things, did you not question why you were paying so much in a small European country?
And did you not refuse to purchase for that reason?
And maybe ask your politicians what exactly was happening in this over-inflated economy?

No? So you take a teeny weeny bit of the blame then.

danbohan · 07-12-2010 04:30PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

Woah, woah, woah........what's with the sweeping generalisations?

When I was employed, I worked and saved my ass off. Anything I ever wanted or bought I worked, saved and then bought it. I went out and got pissed on the weekends because I thought I deserved it after working and to socialise, NOT because I was riding the Celtic Tiger.

I am not a greedy or materialistic person and never lived beyond my means. My parents were good enough to teach me the value of money. I certainly didn't buy stupidly expensive clothes or pay a crazy price for a pint! But, like it or lump it, I know I and everybody else has to help foot the bill.

and because of that you are not saddled with massive debts and negative equity , you will now have to pay taxes closer to the taxes paid by taxpayers in other european countries for the foreseeable future , whats the problem ?

sipstrassi · 07-12-2010 04:30PM

Minstrel27 wrote: »

We did not all buy into it :mad:

Maybe not all, but most.
Myself included. Spent what I had when I had it. Bought stuff I wanted but didn't need. Saving? What's that?!

prinz · 07-12-2010 04:31PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

I am not a greedy or materialistic person and never lived beyond my means. My parents were good enough to teach me the value of money. I certainly didn't buy stupidly expensive clothes or pay a crazy price for a pint! But, like it or lump it, I know I and everybody else has to help foot the bill.

But here's the thing, there were obviously plenty of Irish people who were, and there's no shame in acknowledging that fact. Instead what we have is people denying everything, and "sure nobody I knew bought a house".... as if that was the only sign of living a lifestyle that was ridiculous.

I know people who wouldn't go to some pubs in Dublin because the pints were too cheap. Until we all accept whatever part we played in the whole thing, we are just going to focus on a scape goat and repeat the whole process the next time our standards of living improve.

seamus · 07-12-2010 04:31PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Bad management of the country's finances.

i.e. Greedy policies of spend, spend, spend to gather votes.

Poor banking regulation.

To allow the boom to continue and gather more wealth

Bad management of the housing market, leading to inflated land & property prices.

Again, greed at the base of it, "We don't want the property boom to end, build everywhere!"

A near global recession.

That added to the misery, it didn't cause it.

Ridiculous property led tax breaks.

See propery stuff above.

The Irish government bailing out foreign bond holders debt.

Which was caused by the above factors, which were all in turn a direct result of greedy fiscal policies fueling greedy investments.

At the core of this entire problem is that people wanted to get rich quickly and nobody did anything to stop it. In fact the state did everything to encourage it. That's greed.

And before the "weh, weh, I didn't buy property, I buried all my money under a tree" brigade come along, yes I know some people didn't experience the boom, and didn't try to profit from it but the rest of the country did. You're just stuck with it.

martyoo · 07-12-2010 04:31PM

She has a point in fairness.

LordSutch · 07-12-2010 04:32PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

Woah, woah, woah........what's with the sweeping generalisations?

When I was employed, I worked and saved my ass off. Anything I ever wanted or bought I worked, saved and then bought it. I went out and got pissed on the weekends because I thought I deserved it after working and to socialise, NOT because I was riding the Celtic Tiger.

I am not a greedy or materialistic person and never lived beyond my means. My parents were good enough to teach me the value of money. I certainly didn't buy stupidly expensive clothes or pay a crazy price for a pint! But, like it or lump it, I know I and everybody else has to help foot the bill.

Woah, woah, woah, Nobody said you or I lived beyond our means, but many did, its not as if its a well hidden Myth that I refer to in Post#45.

Biggins · 07-12-2010 04:38PM

drkpower wrote: »

(1)Would those be the excessive wages in the public sector?
(2) Or the wages paid by private sector companies whose profits were being sustained by the bulging property sector, and who themselves were borrowing and expanding to rapidly?

(3) And when you bought these things, did you not question why you were paying so much in a small European country?
(4) And did you not refuse to purchase for that reason?

(5) And maybe ask your politicians what exactly was happening in this over-inflated economy?

(6) No? So you take a teeny weeny bit of the blame then.

(1) Your assuming that (yahoo, here we go again!) the public sector is all to blame - and by the way has no relationship with me anyway - but lets throw that in anyway, in another dig at average public sector workers who are all earning millions each of course!

(2) I have got nothing to do with the property sector - not does the vast majority of workers out there in our country!
What the property sector did was their own business - sadly then then made it ours by their inept actions!

(3) ...Which is why I sought the best cheapest prices in everything I bought!

(4) I walked away from many a stupid over priced item - and I suspect so did many, many others!

(5) LOL - You don't know me then! I asked them to their faces, publicly, privately, on radio and TV. Inside the Dail building and outside it!

(6) No - fcuk NO!!!
...And I am nothing special. Just another over paying taxed/levied/VAT'ed worker who will be starting to pay for others mistakes and stupid errors!

...Meanwhile the Drunconrda Mafia, The Golden Circle, the Bankers, the FF courted property developers and on and on... will get away with everything and in most cases - even remain un-named and allowed to scarper!

...But hey, lets take the easy route and blame everyone! Yea, that will wash!

Copper23 · 07-12-2010 04:42PM

minidazzler wrote: »

Not my fault at all TBH. I am 21, I have had no effect on the economy to date.

And its this part of ignorance that proves her point.

What you MEAN is that you have not CONTRIBUTED to the economy to date... have you effected it? YES!!! In a big way, and by what you said I take it you don't work or anything meaning you're probably more at fault that the typical 21 year old who even if they study at leasts tries to work and contribute something to the country.

I'm actually astounded at this level of ignorance. At 21 you're old enough to know better.

jimthemental · 07-12-2010 04:43PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

I certainly didn't buy stupidly expensive clothes or pay a crazy price for a pint!

Everyone hold up a second, we are missing the important issue at hand. Duggy where are the cheap pints?:)

prinz · 07-12-2010 04:50PM

Biggins wrote: »

(...But hey, lets take the easy route and blame everyone! Yea, that will wash!

As opposed to the easier route of blaming the 'suits' and denying the rate of improvement of the standard of living based upon a spend today/credit culture had anything to do with it. :rolleyes: Like I said, then you are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Or, you know, we could be adults about it and actually think things through properly.

Dudess · 07-12-2010 04:52PM

"You lived here, you benefitted, therefore you had a role"... So unless a person lived in a cave and didn't avail of any amenities for the duration of the boom, they had a part to play? Bankers/politicians/developers/regular joes who were flash are to blame, nobody else. It's pretty horrible the way some blame is being apportioned to people who DIDN'T live beyond their means (if they bought expensive pints, that's because pints are... eh... expensive; laughable to suggest buying pints during the boom was symptomatic of greed).

starbelgrade wrote: »

But, sure it's a lot easier to say that people got greedy & ignore the bigger picture.

It IS greed that led to the collapse, but that woman, in her life of wealth and privilege, is targetting the wrong people. Yep, stupid bitch is quite apt.

prinz wrote: »

By people voted in by...?

fontanalis wrote: »

They didn't walk in there by themselves.

Oh that one is STILL being clutched on to. Why, when you know there are more parties than Fianna Fáil and not everyone voted them, trot that one out?

sipstrassi wrote: »

We all bought into it. How many of us have children who have had a foreign holiday every year of their lives? (I was 32 the first time I went abroad!) How many have houses that are bigger than the ones they grew up in (usually with more siblings than their own children have)? How many households have two cars? etc. etc.

Not all of us, making the first sentence incorrect.

prinz wrote: »

I'll take that as a yes. No objections on your part then was there? You don't have to have taken out a huge mortgage to have enjoyed the benefits of the boom. I didn't take out a mortgage, couldn't afford it. Didn't spend on anything mad. Have been budgetting and scraping by for a few years now. Did I still reap the benefits of the boom - yes I did. No one can deny the average standard of living rose dramatically in the first few years of this decade.

Doesn't make you to blame - stop bending over and taking it up the arse from FF supporters and people who were flash as hell and now want the blame diverted from them.

drkpower wrote: »

Ever buy a pint that cost €6?
Ever ask Daddy for a present that cost too much?
Ever buy anything on credit?
Ever buy clothes, or other luxuries, that you really did not need?
Ever question your politicians when they continued to spend money they did not have? Or ever ask your parents why they are voting for people who advocate this?

Didn't do all of it, did some. It's everyday stuff that would not contribute to an economic downfall. I will not be told I am to blame, even just a tiny bit. People who say I and others like me are to blame are assholes frankly.

danbohan wrote: »

the truth hurts , its easier to blame everbody else . good on her , nice to see a bit of honest speaking for once

Do YOU like being told you're to blame? It ain't the truth hurting, it's just objection to that woman talking through her hole.

Biggins · 07-12-2010 04:53PM

prinz wrote: »

...Or, you know, we could be adults about it and actually think things through properly.

Well maybe FF should have done that years ago instead of being too busy lining their own pockets and the pockets of their close relationship friends in the property and banking sector - you know the ones that is married to them in all but name!

Cavehill Red · 07-12-2010 04:53PM

I will NOT be lectured to about greed from a grasping bitch who has hoovered up millions in pensions from this country after quitting as President in order to take up a higher paying job with the UN.

Teclo · 07-12-2010 04:55PM

Personally I believe the country has been going downhill since women were allowed into pubs.

prinz · 07-12-2010 04:57PM

Dudess wrote: »

It's pretty horrible the way some blame is being apportioned to people who DIDN'T live beyond their means (if they bought expensive pints, that's because pints are... eh... expensive; laughable to suggest buying pints during the boom was symptomatic of greed)..

....and why were the pints so expensive? Buying the pints was not symptomatic of greed but it was feeding the monster. It all added up.

CokaColumbo · 07-12-2010 04:58PM

Greed was not the cause of the recession. That is pathetic reasoning from a person of such high stature like Mary Robinson. And the financial industry is one of the most highly regulated ones in existence.

There is nothing wrong with "greed". We are all self interested; we all like to get the most out of things for our own personal betterment, and rightly so. It was the removal of risk by governments, which is so integral and fundamental to free-market capitalism, not greed, that contributed to our current predicament. Its removal created perverse incentives which allowed individuals and institutions, throughout the world, to take excessive risks. This is what we saw with the banks. Fault? Not too little government interference in the economy but too much.

We had a Celtic Tiger of two halves. The first was an export led boom which was based on production, trade, deposit-funded lending and healthy gains (i.e. a good, greedy economy in which everybody was better off). The second was an artificial bubble which was created by a tax-scheme which incentivised people to invest in the property market, e.g. section-23 for developers and tax incentives for first time buyers. The bubble was deliberately exacerbated by the government because the revenue it generated from it was massive.

Finally, the bubble and a consumption based economy (bad) was facilitated by our membership of the EMU, Economic and Monetary Union. The halving of interest rates almost overnight, around the turn of the millennium, and then historical lows of 2%, incentivised people to take on more debt than they otherwise would have, and they poured much of it into the property sector as well as other areas. An unsustainable bubble based on malinvestment throughout the economy was bound to burst, resulting in a recession.

Moral of the story: a economy based on free markets, or "greed", would not have got us where we are today.

Biggins · 07-12-2010 04:59PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I will NOT be lectured to about greed from a grasping bitch who has hoovered up millions in pensions from this country after quitting as President in order to take up a higher paying job with the UN.

...And will get massive pensions from both for ever after!
Gawd she has it tough!

Duggy747 · 07-12-2010 04:59PM

danbohan wrote: »

and because of that you are not saddled with massive debts and negative equity , you will now have to pay taxes closer to the taxes paid by taxpayers in other european countries for the foreseeable future , whats the problem ?

I'm not denying that we shouldn't and I'm not kicking up a fuss about that. I obviously don't want the cuts to be harsh but I know I'll adjust to whatever applies to me, I won't be crying "oooooh, my basic human rights! OMG!!"

prinz wrote: »

But here's the thing, there were obviously plenty of Irish people who were, and there's no shame in acknowledging that fact. Instead what we have is people denying everything, and "sure nobody I knew bought a house".... as if that was the only sign of living a lifestyle that was ridiculous.

I didn't mean that, of course I know people who pissed their money away on stupid investments. Buying 2nd / 3rd houses and watching the property crash blow up in their faces, people buying top-spec cars when they could barely afford it, and I know quite a few (and young) people who owe a crazy amount of money to banks. Hell, I couldn't understand fùckers spending €60 on a t-shirt only for it be lost / ruined and then watch them shrug their shoulders and buy another one. Heh, even I think €20 is too much for a t-shirt. :pac:

jimthemental wrote: »

Everyone hold up a second, we are missing the important issue at hand. Duggy where are the cheap pints?:)

My local pub back home used to do, in my opinion because I'm so used to it, the best Guinness for €3.20. Now, though I think they went up to €3.80 :pac:

Still, I'll adjust and keep with my 8 pack of Bavaria for €8

Dyr · 07-12-2010 04:59PM

Hi Mary,

Let me you tell you it "as it is": You're a carpet bagging geebag

Dudess · 07-12-2010 04:59PM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I will NOT be lectured to about greed from a grasping bitch who has hoovered up millions in pensions from this country after quitting as President in order to take up a higher paying job with the UN.

It annoys me when people say Ireland is like a dictatorship, bla bla, but there is a real cowing minions feel to Irish society - someone in a position of authority feeds us crap and there is a resounding chorus of "Yes boss, you're right". The nonsense of "Respecting your betters or you're a begrudger" is probably related to that too.

LeixlipRed · 07-12-2010 05:01PM

Thanks for the Mary, who's this ****ing we?? **** off you upper class twat

Dudess · 07-12-2010 05:01PM

prinz wrote: »

....and why were the pints so expensive? Buying the pints was not symptomatic of greed but it was feeding the monster. It all added up.

That to me looks more like the pint-buyer was exploited - and to say they shouldn't have bought pints so is just disingenuous; ordinary good people deserve to do something enjoyable like go for a point.

prinz · 07-12-2010 05:03PM

Dudess wrote: »

That to me looks more like the pint-buyer was exploited - and to say they shouldn't have bought pints so is just disingenuous; ordinary good people deserve to do something enjoyable like go for a point.

...and at the same time, some of the most expensive pubs and clubs in Dublin, for example, were jammed to the door. Irish people loved to be exploited, make them feel wealthy.

kfallon · 07-12-2010 05:07PM

Fooking clitbag is only going mad cos we didn't vote her Ireland's greatest person or whatever that thing was called!

Poor man's Mother Theresa

Dudess · 07-12-2010 05:09PM

prinz wrote: »

...and at the same time, some of the most expensive pubs and clubs in Dublin, for example, were jammed to the door. Irish people loved to be exploited, make them feel wealthy.

Sure. Never said there weren't flash people. I wasn't in those queues though - I'm not buying this collective responsibility sh1t, I'm just not, no matter what you say. It's a shame you and others would be so willing to put up with being told you're part of the problem, like some idiot who maxed several credit cards. I know you're not being considered EQUALLY to blame, but you shouldn't be considered to blame at all. Just because you didn't live like an Albanian peasant farmer in a country that was awash with money (real or not) does not make you in any way to blame.

I find this meekness saddening, frustrating and infuriating.

Pace2008 · 07-12-2010 05:12PM

Dudess wrote: »

I find this meekness saddening, frustrating and infuriating.

Agreed. The level of deference to authority displayed by some posters, even today in this thread and the wikileaks one, is a bit worrying.

Cavehill Red · 07-12-2010 05:12PM

Dudess wrote: »

It annoys me when people say Ireland is like a dictatorship, bla bla, but there is a real cowing minions feel to Irish society - someone in a position of authority feeds us crap and there is a resounding chorus of "Yes boss, you're right". The nonsense of "Respecting your betters or you're a begrudger" is probably related to that too.

The stereotype of the 'fighting Irish' is a myth. I've never encountered any other people as pathetically, stomach-churningly craven in the face of their masters.
We tugged forelocks to the Brits and we've tugged forelocks to the likes of Robinson, Haughey, Ahern, and Cowen since.
We'll bend over today and take this black mambo bailout up the jacksie without so much as a whimper. We'll nod sadly when these scumbags, their pockets bulging with our cash in their pensions, tell us we have to take the pain.
We'll nod our heads with regret when they lecture us about how we, who worked our tails off and paid through the nose for everything from a pint to a house, were greedy, even as they were responsible for lining their own pockets and bringing down the economy they used to milk us dry.
I guess this is what happens after centuries of social engineering, where anyone with any drive, ambition or backbone got up and left for good. We've bred ourselves to the position of serfs to an elite class, including Robinson, who see us as their helots.

prinz · 07-12-2010 05:13PM

Dudess wrote: »

I find this meekness saddening, frustrating and infuriating.

It's nothing to do with being meek. The problem is those "flash people" you talk about are shoulder to shoulder with the rest laying 100% of the blame on the banker et al. Of course the "flash person" mentality was partially to blame, and if we ignore it, we will repeat it.

It's not mutually exclusive who to blame for the mess. It's not about a deference to authority or any of that shíte. It's about having the cop on to know that the country went a bit mad. It doesn't take anything away from the bastardos who were supposed to be regulating and prudent. Nothing whatsoever.

Lumen · 07-12-2010 05:25PM

The whole "everyone's to blame because they went shopping" argument is horseshít pedalled by the guilty and the masochistic.

I have paid my taxes, met all my private financial obligations, brought money into the state and employed a number of people. I am surely not alone in meeting these perfectly ordinary responsibilities. I also advised any friends who would listen not to speculate on the property market.

Mary R can shove her generalisations up her arse.

Mary Robinson tells it like it is

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