Old Age Pension disgrace

Drumpot · 07-12-2010 11:56AM #1

Im sorry but I just have to say that I am disgusted that the OAP is not being touched MAINLY because of the voting power this section of society has.

I get fed up reading about how these loud voice vested interest sections of society feel they are being "attacked" as if this crisis has passed the rest of us all out!

What is clear is that we are not all in this together because the pensioners have a louder voice, they will get protected from pain.

I believe in protecting the vulnerable (means test is easiest way of working out), not people who just dont want to adjust their lifestyles.

FF's biggest legacy will be the mess they left the country in, their second legacy will be their inability to challenge the biggest vested interest groups in Ireland to make sure that we all felt collective pain. Looks like its down to those without voices to once again shoulder the most pain.

This is not an attack on pensioners, its an attack on our politicians (lab and FG will be no differant) for not dishing out the pain evenly . .

Permabear · 07-12-2010 12:29PM

This post has been deleted.

astra2000 · 07-12-2010 12:36PM

Hi I must admit I kindof agree with you, its not that I advocate cuts on welfare but I fail to see how it can be justified to cut dole and not pension, would it not have been fairer to have applied smaller cuts to all? Right now with my husband working and having a family I would be of the opinion that we would be much better off when we are pensioners as we will have no dependants mortgage will (hopefully) be paid and would only need one car.
I do have great respect for older people and the fact they have lived through much harder times than us and that unlike someone on the dole who will hopefully be able to get employment in the future and come off it this money will be their only income. Its a tough one to call.

joolsveer · 07-12-2010 12:43PM

I don't think that contributory allowances should be cut as the recipients have paid into a fund for this - a type of national insurance. My mother is 86 and receives the contributory old age pension on the basis of her own contributions and those of my late father. I would not like to see her income being cut after a lifetime of living and working in this state.

07-12-2010 12:46PM

Anyone who worked 30 or 40 years deserves their state pension, many folk exist solely on it. I would be in favour of means testing it to an extent though, lots of really wealthy pensioners there who have megabucks.

pocketvenus · 07-12-2010 12:52PM

joolsveer wrote: »

I don't think that contributory allowances should be cut as the recipients have paid into a fund for this - a type of national insurance. My mother is 86 and receives the contributory old age pension on the basis of her own contributions and those of my late father. I would not like to see her income being cut after a lifetime of living and working in this state.

What about the people who have worked for last 20-30 years and paid their PRSI etc - their dole / JB will probably be cut in line with JA. It was last year and will be this year again as it is being predicted. That is not fair either.

OAP's cannot be out there giving out about the budget etc when they are not willing to give up anything - even if it was a €5 each week or a reduction in benefits such as loss of free tv license etc it would show they are willing to help somewhat. All they are doing is with the Gov robbing their children, grandchildren etc by refusing to take a cut in anything.

Slydice · 07-12-2010 01:00PM

This blog wasa posted yesterday:
http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2010/12/presentation-to-ucc-economics-society.html

Looking at the slides on this blog gave me some perspective on the old age pensions issue.

niallers1 · 07-12-2010 01:00PM

Just remember you will be a pensioner in a few years.
I think pensioners have contributed taxes over the years and have had to endure the rat race for approx: 40 years and passed the finish line.

I think they deserve to have some comfort and perks at the end of their working life.

I think the state pension should be means tested. This is the fairest way of cutting. Those who are wealthy do not need it as much as those who have no other source of income.

DoesNotCompute · 07-12-2010 01:10PM

pocketvenus wrote: »

OAP's cannot be out there giving out about the budget etc when they are not willing to give up anything - even if it was a €5 each week or a reduction in benefits such as loss of free tv license etc it would show they are willing to help somewhat. All they are doing is with the Gov robbing their children, grandchildren etc by refusing to take a cut in anything.

I have to say, I do agree with this. OAPs should be expected to contribute (even if it is €5 a week, it would be something). After all, they do get free tv licences, fuel allowances, free travel, etc, etc.

The likes of Jackie Healy-Rae and Michael Lowry holding the country hostage and milking the publicity for all it was worth last night on the OAP issue is an outright disgrace and embarrasses us while the eyes of the world are on Ireland.

pocketvenus · 07-12-2010 01:11PM

niallers1 wrote: »

Just remember you will be a pensioner in a few years.
I think pensioners have contributed taxes over the years and have had to endure the rat race for approx: 40 years and passed the finish line.

I think they deserve to have some comfort and perks at the end of their working life.

I think the state pension should be means tested. This is the fairest way of cutting. Those who are wealthy do not need it as much as those who have no other source of income.

By the time the majority of people today in their 20-30's get to OAP age - the state pension probably won't exist or you will have to work till you are 80 to get it.

Nobody is saying pensioners shouldn't have comfort but being realistic the majority of them are doing quiet well - no mortgage, a new / brand new car probably paid for ( no loan), also low ESB, gas, phone bills, no tv license and holidays away or weekend breaks. I know this does not apply to all but the majority are doing ok. Some small contribution needs to be made by them - if they took a €5 cut then in turn it lead to a lower reduction in other benefits thus ensuring it is spread evenly over all SW payments.

Padraig Mor · 07-12-2010 01:23PM

niallers1 wrote: »

Just remember you will be a pensioner in a few years.
I think pensioners have contributed taxes over the years and have had to endure the rat race for approx: 40 years and passed the finish line.

I think they deserve to have some comfort and perks at the end of their working life.

I think the state pension should be means tested. This is the fairest way of cutting. Those who are wealthy do not need it as much as those who have no other source of income.

RoverJames wrote: »

Anyone who worked 30 or 40 years deserves their state pension, many folk exist solely on it. I would be in favour of means testing it to an extent though, lots of really wealthy pensioners there who have megabucks.

But that's one of the problems. There's plenty of OAPs out there who have NOT worked and paid tax for 30/40 years, yet still expect a lavish pension/benefits package, the likes of which most recently-unemployed people can only dream of (despite having far higher living costs). Pensioners are possibly the most cosseted group in the country, something my mother (a pensioner herself) agrees on.

07-12-2010 01:25PM

pocketvenus wrote: »

being realistic the majority of them are doing quiet well - no mortgage, a new / brand new car probably paid for ( no loan), also low ESB, gas, phone bills, no tv license and holidays away or weekend breaks. I know this does not apply to all but the majority are doing ok. Some small contribution needs to be made by them - if they took a €5 cut then in turn it lead to a lower reduction in other benefits thus ensuring it is spread evenly over all SW payments.

Being realistic the majority of pensioners don't have new cars.

Tenger · 07-12-2010 01:26PM

Slydice wrote: »

This blog wasa posted yesterday:
http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2010/12/presentation-to-ucc-economics-society.html

Looking at the slides on this blog gave me some perspective on the old age pensions issue.

I do think people deserve to get a old age pension. Looking at that slide show however shoes how in real terms the pension has increased above the rate of inflation. Slide 12 and 14 illustrate this very well. (silde 18 also shows the jump in lecturers salaries)

Another point is that there are a group (probably small) of 'well off' pensioners. Whether through smart investment or sales of property in the last decade these OAPs may not need the state pension. I would like to see a sliding scale of means testing to allow the state to insure the funds go to the most needy OAPs. (could be as simple as no free TV above a certain theshold)

pocketvenus · 07-12-2010 01:31PM

RoverJames wrote: »

Being realistic the majority of pensioners don't have new cars.

Well from the majority of OAP's I know and from seeing them going about on the road the car's are pretty new.

A friend of mine works for a car dealership and said the biggest purchaser of cars this year was the OAP's who were trading in 04-06's for brand new ones.

I know this does not extend to everyone but the alot of urban dwelling OAP's drive pretty new cars. Some even have 2 cars in the house. One older, one newer.

Jaysoose · 07-12-2010 01:33PM

I think this is part of the reason why this budget should not be allowed through, its not realistic to leave pensioners untouched while the rest of the country gets hammerred yet again. This is another legacy of the ineptitude of this goverment and its inability to face reality.

The cuts should be across the board for everybody.

ntlbell · 07-12-2010 01:46PM

RoverJames wrote: »

Anyone who worked 30 or 40 years deserves their state pension, many folk exist solely on it. I would be in favour of means testing it to an extent though, lots of really wealthy pensioners there who have megabucks.

You don't need to be mega rich, people talk about OAP's like they're the poorest people in the country a lot of them have more disposable income than anyone else.

In a lot of cases if you're an OAP you will have no mortgage, large amount of savings, no dependant kids. free travel, fuel allowances, no tv licensne, free health care etc. their outgoings will generally be at the lowest they've ever been.

irishh_bob · 07-12-2010 01:50PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Im sorry but I just have to say that I am disgusted that the OAP is not being touched MAINLY because of the voting power this section of society has.

I get fed up reading about how these loud voice vested interest sections of society feel they are being "attacked" as if this crisis has passed the rest of us all out!

What is clear is that we are not all in this together because the pensioners have a louder voice, they will get protected from pain.

I believe in protecting the vulnerable (means test is easiest way of working out), not people who just dont want to adjust their lifestyles.

FF's biggest legacy will be the mess they left the country in, their second legacy will be their inability to challenge the biggest vested interest groups in Ireland to make sure that we all felt collective pain. Looks like its down to those without voices to once again shoulder the most pain.

This is not an attack on pensioners, its an attack on our politicians (lab and FG will be no differant) for not dishing out the pain evenly . .

the descision to shield pensioners from the depression is not simply down to fianna fail political opportunism , irish people have always been mushy headed and sentimental when it comes to certain groups , all nurses are selfless angels of mercy , all pensioners are penniless and shivering with the cold beside thier turf fire

i for one have never understood the notion that one automatically becomes poor upon reaching the age of 66 yet all people over this age in ireland are lumped into the MOST VULNERABLE category , i honestly dont blame fianna fail for going with this descision , the next goverment wont cut it either as thier is overwhelming public support for maintaning the fiction that the old are inherintly weak , poor and vulnerable

irishh_bob · 07-12-2010 01:52PM

RoverJames wrote: »

Anyone who worked 30 or 40 years deserves their state pension, many folk exist solely on it. I would be in favour of means testing it to an extent though, lots of really wealthy pensioners there who have megabucks.

even you never worked a day in your life , you get 218 euro per week plus a multitude of other perks and as for those on the contributory 232 per week , thier is no way thier prsi contributions could have merited the increases awarded in the OAP this past decade

the groutch · 07-12-2010 01:58PM

whichever party is has the means testing of ALL state pensions in their mandate will most likely get my number 1 vote next year. it is ludicrous that there are pensioners out there that are nearly as wealthy as our TDs, and are still able to claim a state pension

irishh_bob · 07-12-2010 01:59PM

RoverJames wrote: »

Anyone who worked 30 or 40 years deserves their state pension, many folk exist solely on it. I would be in favour of means testing it to an extent though, lots of really wealthy pensioners there who have megabucks.

yeah means testing :rolleyes:

we tried that with the medical card two years ago , what happened , every pensioner in the country ( and thier children worried about a potentially smaller inheritance ) headed for dublin , the country went into uninformed hysteria and the result was that a retired pensioner can earn up to 699 euro per week and a retired couple up to 1398 euro per week while still qualifying for free trips to thier local GP

the facts go out the window when having a conversations about sacred cows in this country

Sesshoumaru · 07-12-2010 01:59PM

niallers1 wrote: »

Just remember you will be a pensioner in a few years.
I think pensioners have contributed taxes over the years and have had to endure the rat race for approx: 40 years and passed the finish line.

I think they deserve to have some comfort and perks at the end of their working life.

I think the state pension should be means tested. This is the fairest way of cutting. Those who are wealthy do not need it as much as those who have no other source of income.

The state isn't a magic pot of gold. We all contribute while paying taxes for the day to day running of the government. Did the taxes these pensioners paid turn into a magic pot of gold? No! It went where my tax euros today go to, the day to day running of the sate.

While they were younger and working, their taxes paid for Gardai to patrol the street, for doctors, nurses, firemen, the army, navy, air corp & everything else the state provides for on a daily basis. Right now my taxes have to pay for the upkeep of the state and now for these pensioners who are living longer than ever before.

Max Power1 · 07-12-2010 02:05PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

even you never worked a day in your life , you get 218 euro per week plus a multitude of other perks and as for those on the contributory 232 per week , thier is no way thier prsi contributions could have merited the increases awarded in the OAP this past decade

IMO they should leave the contributory pension as is (or a token decrease of say5%), and half the non contributory pension.

After all, who gets the non contributory pension? People that dont work. There was no excuse for not having a job during the celtic tiger years, but yet these scroungers and bottom dwellers get almost the same as someone who paid PRSI for 40 years? Outrageous.

I detest this image of the pensioner as "huddled in the cold etc". They get MORE (even on the non contributory pension) then someone who is on Jobseekers Benefit (the contributory one)

the groutch · 07-12-2010 02:06PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

yeah means testing :rolleyes:

we tried that with the medical card two years ago , what happened , every pensioner in the country ( and thier children worried about a potentially smaller inheritance ) headed for dublin , the country went into uninformed hysteria and the result was that a retired pensioner can earn up to 699 euro per week and a retired couple up to 1398 euro per week while still qualifying for free trips to thier local GP

the facts go out the window when having a conversations about sacred cows in this country

it didnt work because FF have no balls to stand up to pensioners

gollem_1975 · 07-12-2010 02:06PM

OAP V JSB etc.

JSB and JSA are not intended to be payments for someone just because they are not working.

the intention is that is payment to tide them over while they are "seeking" work.

It is not intended that the OAPs will be out looking for work / competing for work with those under 65 so I do see some rationale for the OAP to be higher than JSB rates.

having said that I wouldn't oppose a cut in the OAP considering the scenario where everything else seems to be getting a cut (share the pain etc.)

Max Power1 · 07-12-2010 02:07PM

the groutch wrote: »

it didnt work because FF have no balls to stand up to pensioners

But they vote in their droves :rolleyes:

Max Power1 · 07-12-2010 02:08PM

gollem_1975 wrote: »

OAP V JSB etc.

JSB and JSA are not intended to be payments for someone just because they are not working.

the intention is that is payment to tide them over while they are "seeking" work.

It is not intended that the OAPs will be out looking for work / competing for work with those under 65 so I do see some rationale for the OAP to be higher than JSB rates.

having said that I wouldn't oppose a cut in the OAP considering the scenario where everything else seems to be getting a cut (share the pain etc.)

Even if the contributpry JSB payment is lower than the non contributory pension? So you sit on your hole for 40 years claiming the dole, then get an increase at 66? Whereas Joe Soap who got laid off at 55 after 30 years working and paying PRSI gets less?

Hardly fair IMO

Idbatterim · 07-12-2010 02:12PM

why the hell on the likes of Vincent Browne, does he always go on about the vulnerable being attacked? we are the most broke nation in europe, with low taxes and very generous welfare. Ofcourse alot of people here reckon there is nothing wrong with being as well or better off than someone who actually goes out and works!

gollem_1975 · 07-12-2010 02:16PM

the groutch wrote: »

it didnt work because FF have no balls to stand up to pensioners

considering the current economic crisis (the details of which came into the public eye some time after those OAP protests) I think the government had bigger fish to fry then "standing up to them" (the savings wouldn't have justified it either)
If the opposition had rowed in behind the government perhaps they would have stood up.
The protest were an early barometer for the government for the idea that people would not take a cut in their "entitlements" in the national interest.. we didn't cause this etc.

If the government should have stood up to anyone with regards to the OAP medical card issue it should have been the Irish Medical Organisation with regard to the generous deal the GPs got for looking after Medical card payments!(I wonder will FG's James O'Reilly tackle this when he is in government since he was the main negotiator for the IMO afaik

)

Tim Robbins · 07-12-2010 02:25PM

Isn't it obvious what is happening folks?

FF are leaving every tough decision to Labour / FG.

We all know the country will not get out of this mess until:

1. There is a default on senior bond holders
2. There are massive cuts to social welfare - pensioners and dolers.
3. There are savage cuts to the public sector.
4. College fees treble

Money doesn't grow on trees, it doesn't fall from the clouds. Some major pain will be a coming and FF just don't want all of it on their hands. They'll be twice the cute hoors in opposition and the labour / fg co-alition won't last two years.

gollem_1975 · 07-12-2010 02:28PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

Even if the contributpry JSB payment is lower than the non contributory pension? So you sit on your hole for 40 years claiming the dole, then get an increase at 66? Whereas Joe Soap who got laid off at 55 after 30 years working and paying PRSI gets less?

Hardly fair IMO

yes when you put it like that it doesn't seem fair.

to follow on from your analogy - that 55 year old can also sit on their hole claiming the dole just like the other person in your example and then also get an increase at 66. It may not be fair but at least its equal if you know what I mean.

OT - based on what (little) i know about life expectancy.. someone who sits on their hole for 40 years on the dole , considering the lifestyle that goes along with that, will not be collecting OAP for a long time.

It seems like the whole area of Social Welfare payments/benefits needs to be looked at in Ireland.

Idbatterim · 07-12-2010 02:39PM

I think the dole and pension should be at different rates, an absolute subsitence rate, i.e half the normal rate for those who never worked or intend on working.

Old Age Pension disgrace

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