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One off housing

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Eh yes it does. I know the area in that map personally

    How do you "know the area in that map personally ?

    Don't tell me you've actually visited it using some of those pesky roads ? :eek:

    Hope you paid your taxes for those!
    .......the other users of the system must subsidise the cost of providing services to these rural dwellers. It doesn't matter to me who takes the euro out of my pocket whether it be the tax man the esb or eircom all I care about is the fact is that its not in my pocket any more.

    So how much would it cost you to drive to the farm on non-existent rural roads to collect your milk and cheese and vegetables ?

    I'd guess that all of those would be cheaper to me if regulations allowed me to get them directly from the farmer instead of being forced to subsidise the cost of them being delivered to factories and supermarkets and then drive in to purchase them.

    But then what would I know ? I'm only a country bumpkin and not a sophisticated, educated city slicker.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    It doesn't matter to me who takes the euro out of my pocket whether it be the tax man the esb or eircom all I care about is the fact is that its not in my pocket any more.

    ESB is a commercial company.
    And they more then cover their costs on linking new builds to the grid. It's not a few hundred euro....it's closer to few thousand and maybe more

    A lot if you live by the main road and if they need poles to get to your land, the price escalates.

    I was shocked when I heard the quote, maybe you would be too.
    Now you say for that money I get a lifetime of ESB maintaining my line and taxpayers pay for this? No problem, sure don't I pay for your sewage and water?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    How do you "know the area in that map personally ?

    Don't tell me you've actually visited it using some of those pesky roads ? :eek:

    Hope you paid your taxes for those!



    So how much would it cost you to drive to the farm on non-existent rural roads to collect your milk and cheese and vegetables ?

    I'd guess that all of those would be cheaper to me if regulations allowed me to get them directly from the farmer instead of being forced to subsidise the cost of them being delivered to factories and supermarkets and then drive in to purchase them.

    But then what would I know ? I'm only a country bumpkin and not a sophisticated, educated city slicker.


    You're strawmanning. There are no regulations preventing direct purchase of produce from a farmer. The reason we have supermarkets is that their scale allows them to sell more cheaply even after delivery has been factored in as a cost. This has nothing to do with one off housing, most (not all!) people who live in the countryside do not work in the countryside, they commute to towns and cities. Yes there are arguments that our towns and cities are badly designed and have problems but one off housing is not a solution, it is in fact replacing one problem with another larger one.

    One off housing is not sustainable, but I'm not against living in the countryside per-se. Development in the countryside should be done as a community centred around villages, where the appropriate infrastructure can be put in place, relatively cheaply. There was a certain amount of this tried in the boom but it was poorly implemented and too many exceptions for one off developments were made which bound the strategy to failure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    You're strawmanning.

    Maybe partially, but check out the regulations relating to Health & Safety and even "home baking for sale" and get back to me.

    More interesting is the question that you avoided. How do you know those areas personally, and did you use the rural roads to get to know them ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    How do you "know the area in that map personally ?

    Don't tell me you've actually visited it using some of those pesky roads ? :eek:

    Hope you paid your taxes for those!
    Well I wouldn't have had to go there if the person I was visiting didn't live in a one off house:D

    This actually kind of proves my point, the raison-d'etre for these roads is to provide access for one off houses and the only people who use them actually live down those boreens or are visiting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Well I wouldn't have had to go there if the person I was visiting didn't live in a one off house:D

    Fair point, however the fact remains that you used those roads.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    One off housing is not sustainable, but I'm not against living in the countryside per-se. Development in the countryside should be done as a community centred around villages, where the appropriate infrastructure can be put in place, relatively cheaply. There was a certain amount of this tried in the boom but it was poorly implemented and too many exceptions for one off developments were made which bound the strategy to failure.

    Ah, the famous Section 23. Building estates in rural areas. Not necessarily a bad thing.
    Prices were high due to the massive tax breaks so many or most bought by investors. Many hoping to flip them or write off tax.
    Very few locals would buy a house with an inflated house price due to tax incentives.

    Even with price drops, many have turned into ghost estates.
    Yet another wasteful scheme.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    The discussion in this thread is so off the wall it really belongs in AH.
    People shouldn't live in a stand alone house in the country, WTF. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    oppenheimer1...........Judge Dredd, Megacity 1, and the long walk into the cursed earth comes to mind.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    One-off Housing killed my cat
    By Mark Waters
    Thursday, September 18, 2003

    OK, this one's personal. One-off housing killed my cat.
    For much of my youth I lived in so-called ribbon development housing on the outskirts of Castlebar. The 'development' consisted of a number of one-off houses clinging to the sides of the busy main road. Each house was individually serviced with its own water supply, electricity supply and telephone line and septic tank. Each had its own access to the main road. Each had its own means of handling refuse disposal. In short, each dwelling was a castle, self-sufficient and living in splendid isolation from its neighbours.
    My cat was a beauty; her fur was a kaleidoscope of black, white and gold. We had rescued her from certain death after her mother -a stray- gave birth to a litter in a coal bag outside our house. She grew strong and healthy and one day produced a litter of her own. A few days after, following an unfortunate altercation with a neighbour's dog she decided it would be wise to take her five babies to a safer place. That place was in another neighbour's yard -on the other side of the busy main road.
    The arrangement worked well for a few days. The kittens were safe and their mother would cross the road a few times a day to be fed at our house. Then one day the inevitable happened. The cat was killed crossing the road by a motorist who was driving so fast that he probably didn't even notice. We did our best to nurse the motherless kittens but without their mother it was hopeless and one by one they faded away and died.

    Our cats paid the ultimate price but we ourselves suffered in little ways every day as a consequence of living in a one-off house. Services were inferior. Our electricity gave out a light that was a pale imitation of that of our friends in town. Our water supply had weak pressure. Our septic tank left our back garden looking like a marsh.

    Later when the internet arrived it came at a crawl. Our telephone line was so far from the telephone exchange that we would have been quicker driving two miles to the nearest shop and buying the newspaper rather than wait for it to download.
    And everything was so far away. Hours of our life were squandered travelling to and from school, to the sports clubs, swimming pool, and the houses of friends and, later on, to and from discos and pubs. Like most of our neighbours we were a single car household and huge demands were placed on the car. Cycling was an option only if you were willing to take your chances on the Russian roulette of the road.

    And the road itself was like a knife cutting through the heart of the community. It was so dangerous that you were taking your life into your own hands if you dared to visit your neighbour. So we didn't. We retreated into our castles, and to our televisions, barely connected to the world by our cars -the very things that were imprisoning us in our homes.

    This is the legacy of one-off housing and this is the reality of Bertie Ahern's notion of supporting one-off housing as a means of creating viable communities in the west.
    One-off housing developments may save the politicians at the next election and they may save the farmers by putting a few euros in their pockets to delay the inevitable day of reckoning before they finally accept that their lifestyle is unviable and unsustainable. But they will not save the farmers' sons and daughters. The farmers cry that their children cannot build on their land and are forced to leave. But it is not the lack of one-off housing that causes the sons and daughters to jump ship; it is the cost of living and the quality of life that the consequences of one-off developments force on them. They leave because to stay means to pay more for poorer services and to suffer boredom, loneliness and a denial of their potential to contribute to and enjoy a fully functioning community.

    A community of one-off houses has a serious disadvantage before it even starts out on the road to viability, sustainability and growth. Services cost more money and offer a poorer quality than they do in co-ordinated developments. Scarce resources are spread ever thinner across the landscape. The potential for economic development is limited. Everyone is pulling against everyone else instead of in the same direction.

    Co-ordinated development does not provide the solution to all our problems but it provides a more solid foundation from which to tackle them. It gives us the breathing space to fulfil the potential that is often frustrated by a lack of common purpose. The loneliness and isolation of the elderly and housebound, the struggle of the GAA clubs to make the numbers for teams, the difficulty teenagers face trying to get to the disco because it's twenty miles away, the drink-driving roller coaster home after a night at a pub because of the lack of taxis, the difficulty of organising a community festival; these are just a few of the things made more difficult to deal with when we have to first surmount the obstacle of a dysfunctional and disconnected community.

    We delude ourselves into thinking that one-off housing is about freedom and the rights of the individual. But if everyone is given complete freedom and the right to build where they like then no one is free. Everyone is compromised by everyone else. Without co-ordination the friction between individuals becomes so great that we all grind to a halt. With rights comes responsibilities. In the case of property rights these responsibilities are crucial. How landowners use their land has a huge impact on the broader society. It could be argued that many landowners are being so irresponsible in their attitude to the land that its potential for future generations has been irrecoverably damaged.

    We delude ourselves into thinking that this is Ireland and that we are different. Dr. Seamus Caulfield, well known for his work with the Ceide Fields, has suggested that the definition of an Irish village is different to that of its British or European counterpart. He says that housing of the one-off type, where dwellings could be up to two miles apart and still be considered part of the village, were commonplace in the west of Ireland for much of our recent history and that planning strategy should take this into account.

    But if we accept this argument then we must also acknowledge that many of these uniquely Irish villages were unviable and have all but disappeared and all those that do survive rely on the dubious foundations of farm subsidies and the release-valve of emigration to sustain them. To accept a one-off housing policy and to encourage development along the lines of the allegedly uniquely Irish village is to condemn us to repeat the mistakes of a past which few of us would wish to return to.

    We delude ourselves into thinking that our leaders don't have the vision and ability to solve the problem. But we have county development plans and national strategies -developed with strong input from politicians- which are often models of vision, reason and common-sense but which are then totally compromised by the short-term interests of the self-same politicians.

    The conflict between the short-term interests of politicians -always with an eye on the next election- and the long-term view of the planners has lead to a paralysis that has damaged the integrity of the planning process. Furthermore when politicians have the power to influence or reverse individual planning decisions it undermines confidence and defeats the whole point of the process. The politicians should only have the power to frame policy. Then they should let the planners get on with the job of implementing that policy.

    Support for a one-off housing policy is tantamount to support for no housing policy at all. It shows a lack of any vision or hope for the viability and sustainability of communities in the west of Ireland. The long term benefit is sacrificed on the altar of blind short-term individualist thinking, a way of thinking that has stifled our potential so often in the past. The archaeologists at the Ceide Fields with justifiable pride state that their discovery proves that there were human settlements in Mayo 5000 years ago. Looking at the settlements around me today it is hard to see that we have made much progress since.


    This article was originally published in Castlebar.News (www.castlebar.ie) on September 18th 2003.

    A good pre-boom article on the topic and sums up many of my feelings. One off housing has been a disaster in this country and the place is now blighted with monstrosities such as this:

    new-ugly-house2-2.jpg

    During the boom there was 70,000 of those placed on the landscape per year.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    A good pre-boom article on the topic and sums up many of my feelings. .........

    You are ignoring what I personally feel is the most important point.
    What about people like me who would go insane living in a town or village?
    There are people who are happy living in urban areas and people who are happy living in rural ones all over the planet, and this cannot be ignored. I could only be moved to a town at gunpoint (and I really mean that).

    To take your "economic argument" to its logical conclusion then everyone should live in flat complexes like the old Ballymun flats in Dublin, this way everything could be centralised and save millions on infrastructure instead of putting it into sprawling suburbs.
    To put it simply your ideas and vision would be a nightmare of a future if it was to be implemented.

    Good planning is what is needed, not the abandonment of the countryside.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 370 ✭✭wiseguy


    Great another thread on the same subject full of opinions of people who like to judge a book by its cover and stereotype.

    After watching last night's Primetime on Limerick, I am happy my family lives in a friendly community where we all know each other and look out for each other.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Looks like a fine house, pitty about the color tho :D


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you make it sound like those houses were needed for people living locally. i'd say one third of them were occupied. there's no 'rural houses for rural people' card to be played there.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,334 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Reminder... Some of these posts, be they in favour of, or against One Off Housing are becoming a bit too personal. Address the content of the argument, and not each other please. Thanks.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    okay, i'll readdress my post which was deleted; i was in achill recently, and especially around keel, i'd say 33% of the (huge number of) houses were unoccupied and looked like they were long term unoccupied, 33% were unoccupied, but probably short term unoccupied, and the remainder occupied. the landscape was utterly ruined by one off houses which had no sense nor plan as regards use or benefit, and as a place to have a holiday home, i cannot fathom why people would still build homes there - there were damn all shops or restaurants, and no aesthetic value to the place. the 'town' looks like it's used by people to commute to their holiday homes (having done their shopping on the way, judging by the lack of facilities) and make no attempt to engage with the local community.

    i know several people built or bought one off houses in rural areas, and two have admitted that the local economy in their area seemed to be driven by the one off houses - farmers were making more money selling land or building houses on their land and selling, than they were off agriculture. that's not a sustainable strategy, as we've discovered.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom



    new-ugly-house2-2.jpg

    Ironically the image is titled ............. thisfabtrek.com/journey/europe/ireland/dublin/new-ugly-house2-2.jpg
    Not exactly the best example of countryside.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Hours of our life were squandered travelling to and from school, to the sports clubs, swimming pool, and the houses of friends and, later on, to and from discos and pubs. Like most of our neighbours we were a single car household and huge demands were placed on the car.

    Ah yeah......all of the sprawling estates that involve a two-mile drive to the nearest actual road and another 2 miles to the school, sports club, swimming pool, etc, involve no cars whatsoever.....that's why Dublin is completely car-free. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭keithcan


    A key dimension to this is good planning. And guess who has held the reins there for the lask yonks? That's right, the very close relatives of those who have done their worst at national govt level. No wonder we've ended up with ghost estates and the legacy of bad planning. But yet again, we get what we vote for, whether at local or national level.

    Good planning needs balance, sutainability, etc., but also an understanding of the valid expectation of a good amount of people to seek to live in rural settings, often out of an attachment to place that is notably strong esp in rural Ireland. And that's a good thing, key to community spirit, etc.

    The National Spatial Strategy was brought out a decade ago and meant to bring 'order' to planning, but failed miserably. It's now been 'refreshed' and extraordinarily, wants to tip the country back on the east coast, believing that Dublin will drive the economic recovery - see link http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentandHousing/PlanningDevelopment/NationalSpatialStrategy/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,24144,en.pdf

    There's been some serious nonsense posted about the cost of 'subsidising' rural dwellers which, thankfully, has been countered by the obvious fact that rural dwellers pay far more for services. For example, transport in the cities is massively subsidised. By all taxpayers. Including rural-dwellers. Yet the latter get a puny Rural Transport Scheme. We don't expect buses down every road; we'd settle for 2% of the publicly subsidised transport provision that urban areas get. But we won't see it and we'll make do.

    One only has to take a quick look at the concentration of deprivation, anti-social behaviour, etc. in urban areas to see how the model our planners have overseen is nowhere that anyone sensible would want to live.

    Maybe when we the risen people effect the change we're about to at national level (not sure I believe that will really really happen) we'll then look at getting smarter people at local level too and good planning might follow. This does have to have regard to some constraints on one-off housing, but only within a publicly debated and accepted planning context that isn't either black (no rural housing) or white (unrestricted one-offs).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭flutered


    looking at that primetime program made me glad of where i am living, now a few points, who subsidised the m50, the new terminal at dublin airport, us rural dewellers, the same ones who some of whom will never use them facilitys,and as in my case will never want to, all that new infrastrusture was not built for our use, it was built to enable exporters easy and fast acess to seaports.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    flutered wrote: »
    looking at that primetime program made me glad of where i am living, now a few points, who subsidised the m50, the new terminal at dublin airport, us rural dewellers, the same ones who some of whom will never use them facilitys,and as in my case will never want to, all that new infrastrusture was not built for our use, it was built to enable exporters easy and fast acess to seaports.
    You'd swear "rural dwellers" lived out in the boonies of Broken Hill with the above.
    I think you need to read up on EU structural funding because thats where the bulk of the money that was required came from.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    flutered wrote: »
    looking at that primetime program made me glad of where i am living, now a few points, who subsidised the m50, the new terminal at dublin airport, us rural dewellers, the same ones who some of whom will never use them facilitys,and as in my case will never want to, all that new infrastrusture was not built for our use, it was built to enable exporters easy and fast acess to seaports.

    Ehh you forgot that rural dwellers lost their local Garda stations and now they don't ahve alocal Garda because more Gardaí are necessary to patrol urban areas where drug gangs spend a lot of their time trying to gun each other down.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    jmayo wrote: »
    Ehh you forgot that rural dwellers lost their local Garda stations and now they don't ahve alocal Garda because more Gardaí are necessary to patrol urban areas where drug gangs spend a lot of their time trying to gun each other down.

    okay, let's demolish all towns and cities and just have people living on side of our 100k of roads in concrete, lemon bungalows. then there would be no crime, we would all know our neighbours and other drivel about sustainable once-off houses.

    Alot of those 100k of roads should be re-zoned as agricultural roads. If you have to live in middle of nowhere because you don't like living in a town then go for it and accept the long-term consequences for yourselves and families. It's about scarce resources. string development along a country road has blighted our countryside and been responsible for thousands of young people dying needless because they lived so far from towns. The countryside is no place for young people unless they or their parents work the land.

    it's a hugely emotive issue but I'd like one person that lives in a one off house in remote area to outlined the long-term benefits for their families as they see them and then realistically outlined the long term bad consequences. It can't be all good. be honest now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,422 ✭✭✭Avns1s


    This argument is ongoing for years and will still be ongoing when I am six foot under in the nearby rural cemetry. (I presume that this will be sustainable and that I can have a "one off" grave without the environmental lobby objecting!!)

    I think the fundamental point that is forgotton, is that the services and infrastructure in place in rural areas, are there primarily to support and economic function, that is, the production of food. If the roads in rural Ireland didn't exist, telephone lines didnt exist, ESB lines didn't exist, how would the farmers conduct their business?

    Its unlikely that the farmers of Ireland would trek for miles over fields to gather sheep and cattle or vegetables. Agriculture is a business and needs its ESB and Broadband the same as any other business. How would the cows be milked so the townies could have milk on the rice crispies in the morning??

    The reality is that the infrastructure is in place for decades and will be in place unless we want to import all of our food. One off housing is merely piggy backing on those services and arguable making them more sustainable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    If you have to live in middle of nowhere because you don't like living in a town then go for it and accept the long-term consequences for yourselves and families. It's about scarce resources.

    Many of which we produce in the countryside.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Why should the countryside only be used for agriculture? its the 21st century ffs.

    me and my OH are in middle of moving to our new built high spec house in the country, which will also be an office for both of us, and yes there is broadband
    and yes we pay more for everything from water to electricity including very high once off installation charges despite all of these services already running on the road we are on only few meters away.
    as for sewage i had to pay for an expensive treatment plant which has cleaner water coming out the other end of the bio system than taps in city :P

    we work via internet, there is absolutely no reason for us to be crammed into some small tiny apt/house in the city and waste hours commuting, the people i work with mostly are not even in this country or continent for that matter, ive never even met most of them face to face. thats how some business is done in 21st century

    we knew exactly what we were doing by moving out, but i would need to be a millionaire to afford a similar sized home build to same high standards in the city, a house that was build under my supervision (and not some cowboys) to an A rated standard with plenty of insulation and other "green" stuff

    also use third of the house as a large office for company saving on rent
    and finally as added bonus have alot of land now to grow fruit and veg on.


    btw I find it highly hypocritical some people moaning about houses in country, yet the same people want to blanket the whole countryside in windmills and pylons to connect these


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    it's a hugely emotive issue but I'd like one person that lives in a one off house in remote area to outlined the long-term benefits for their families as they see them and then realistically outlined the long term bad consequences. It can't be all good. be honest now.

    If it's so bad why do millions and millions of people all around the planet choose to do it?
    It's not just a matter of economics, all people are different and have different priorities. Some people would go mad living in an isolated part of the country and others mad from living in suburbia.
    To not understand this and think all people must feel the same way you do is a tad naive.
    I live in the country because of the peace and the feeling of tranquility here, something you can't quantify.
    I grew up in the countryside and when I look back wouldn't have had it any other way, when I was old enough I moved to the city and had all the fun that entailed and now years later am back in the country, I feel I've had it all.
    In a small country like this and with the interweb, mobile phones and modern transport links one is not quite as isolated as in the mid 19th or even 20th century.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,422 ✭✭✭Avns1s


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    btw I find it highly hypocritical some people moaning about houses in country, yet the same people want to blanket the whole countryside in windmills and pylons to connect these

    Funny thing is that many of those who promote the environmental aspects of green electricity production are the same nuts who are behind the objections to wind energy projects on the basis of their impact on the landscape! Go figure!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Avns1s wrote: »
    Funny thing is that many of those who promote the environmental aspects of green electricity production are the same nuts who are behind the objections to wind energy projects on the basis of their impact on the landscape! Go figure!!

    Now that I think of it, during my time in power generation i got to visit alot of power plants across the country, in almost all cases (poolbeg be an exception) all of the large powerplants providing most of the electricity (even more on the days when there's **** all wind) are in the countryside from that giant on the Shannon called Moneypoint to the carved up mountaintop in Wicklow (which is a really cool place!)

    I would love to see the face on Gormley if they had to build a 1000MW coal eating monstrosity like Moneypoint in his constituency :D, most of this electricity is used in the cities

    Also instead of destroying the countryside in windmills i strongly believe that if we start now could have a nuclear plant replacing Moneypoint in 10 years time when it days are numbered, no need to build new pylons since the largest cables in country go from there, no thats to simple a solution :(

    Thats what the English are doing now, instead of destroying their countryside which they protect a bit more than here, they will build more nukes


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭flutered


    JustinDee wrote: »
    You'd swear "rural dwellers" lived out in the boonies of Broken Hill with the above.
    I think you need to read up on EU structural funding because thats where the bulk of the money that was required came from.
    to whose benefit ?.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,693 ✭✭✭flutered


    okay, let's demolish all towns and cities and just have people living on side of our 100k of roads in concrete, lemon bungalows. then there would be no crime, we would all know our neighbours and other drivel about sustainable once-off houses.

    Alot of those 100k of roads should be re-zoned as agricultural roads. If you have to live in middle of nowhere because you don't like living in a town then go for it and accept the long-term consequences for yourselves and families. It's about scarce resources. string development along a country road has blighted our countryside and been responsible for thousands of young people dying needless because they lived so far from towns. The countryside is no place for young people unless they or their parents work the land.

    it's a hugely emotive issue but I'd like one person that lives in a one off house in remote area to outlined the long-term benefits for their families as they see them and then realistically outlined the long term bad consequences. It can't be all good. be honest now.

    where are dublin trying to source their water, from the shannon no less, if they kept their network up to date there would be no need of this requirement.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    flutered wrote: »
    where are dublin trying to source their water, from the shannon no less, if they kept their network up to date there would be no need of this requirement.

    totally agree. but isn't that a different issue. poor water infrastructure in probably all of our cities due to inept councils, bad political governance etc.
    We should have privatized water supply 30 years ago and we'd be much better off now.

    a nice view of string development in Achill, makes it look real pretty, doesn't it


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 cill-bill


    i can tell you exactly the planning in the country is ****, there are something like 36 planning councils in ireland, the counties, plus the cities and areas of dublin, but they are all inward looking, even tough they only govern extremely small populations in comparison to other countries. in germany, a federal state, there are 4 governing states in the country, planning for a hugh are with hugh populations. the further problem in ireland is that everyone wants everything in areas where they shiouldnt be, why would a village have a cinema? its unviable. if people lived in cities, they would have all the facilities they needed, but then again the cities would have to be planned correctly, which of course they arent. the notion of not allowing tall buildings in ireland lead to high property prices, thus urban sprawl, and innifician infrastructure. green belts do work, ut only if they are inforeced, and people are willing to live in town houses or apartments, but again the standars are so low in most apartments, due to poor planning, and nobody caring as long as the councels collected taz from the development. all in all, irelands plannig is BS. all my lectureshave even admitted it was their generation that messed it all up, but none taking individual blame, blinded by their own arrogance. take henrietta street in dublin for instance, the ****ty new apartment building put on the first georgin street in dublin is one of the biggest mistakes ever, all all my lectures slag it, except the lecturer who granted permission. he simply defend his poor judgement...rant over


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    cill-bill wrote: »
    i can tell you exactly the planning in the country is ****, there are something like 36 planning councils in ireland, the counties, plus the cities and areas of dublin, but they are all inward looking, even tough they only govern extremely small populations in comparison to other countries. in germany, a federal state, there are 4 governing states in the country, planning for a hugh are with hugh populations. the further problem in ireland is that everyone wants everything in areas where they shiouldnt be, why would a village have a cinema? its unviable. if people lived in cities, they would have all the facilities they needed, but then again the cities would have to be planned correctly, which of course they arent. the notion of not allowing tall buildings in ireland lead to high property prices, thus urban sprawl, and innifician infrastructure. green belts do work, ut only if they are inforeced, and people are willing to live in town houses or apartments, but again the standars are so low in most apartments, due to poor planning, and nobody caring as long as the councels collected taz from the development. all in all, irelands plannig is BS. all my lectureshave even admitted it was their generation that messed it all up, but none taking individual blame, blinded by their own arrogance. take henrietta street in dublin for instance, the ****ty new apartment building put on the first georgin street in dublin is one of the biggest mistakes ever, all all my lectures slag it, except the lecturer who granted permission. he simply defend his poor judgement...rant over

    good post, no offence but you either wrote that very quickly or you need to improve your English writing skills. you do say rant, so maybe written in anger?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 Arts student


    I’ve heard some of the most ridiculous arguments here, can some of you not come up with a more convincing argument against people living in the countryside seen as you hate the concept so much? Its barren and most often flat featureless open fields we are talking about for god sake, all 20 million acres of it nationwide. I doubt every square inch of it is need in this day and age, what with all the mechanised agriculture. I think people, including myself are more than entitled to live in the countryside and I’m saying this as somebody who lives and has grown up in a town. I do agree however about paying ones way, but I think there is a bit of patronising going on here because I know many people who live in the countryside and pay their own way.

    With technology taking over in all areas of our lives whether its for energy or simply the use of the internet, the trend is toward decentralization. I personally would love to have a little home in the countryside and I don’t understand what the problem is, or how I’d be harming anybody else in doing so.

    One thing I will agree on though is that we do need to monitor environmental and design issues. I think eyesores are as unacceptable in the countryside as in the town or city and more should be done to avoid this in future, I would even suggest a nationwide programme such as the Cork Rural Guidelines which proved successful, particularly when it came to things such as housing types and roadside / garden vegetation, because I believe the countryside belongs to everybody. But to depopulate wide open spaces doesn’t make one ounce of sense. I would certainly prefer to live in nature than in some ugly gerry-built housing estate throwin up by FF cowboy builders.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    I would not defend the poor standard of private housing estates around the country on edges of towns, small villages. However lets take Achill, wouldn't it be better to have 3 or 4 small quaint villages, rather than house upon house on 1 acre plots dotted along side the main road for miles on end as can be seen in attachment above. take a look at it on google street view. it's awful.

    Again not defending poor housing planning or standards in towns and cities which have been awful for decades. FF/FG coucillors have ensured that since the foundation of State.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25 Arts student


    I would not defend the poor standard of private housing estates around the country on edges of towns, small villages. However lets take Achill, wouldn't it be better to have 3 or 4 small quaint villages, rather than house upon house on 1 acre plots dotted along side the main road for miles on end as can be seen in attachment above. take a look at it on google street view. it's awful.

    Again not defending poor housing planning or standards in towns and cities which have been awful for decades. FF/FG coucillors have ensured that since the foundation of State.

    Quaint villages?? Villages in this country are a shambles and the only accomadation available in them is in housing estates, and it's the same thing nationwide - ugly houses throwin up for a quick buck by corrupt cowboys with carboard walls and poor insulation surrounded by sterile self-same houses. How exactly are Irish villages quaint?


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    apart from the ones built 100 years ago, they are not. I hate driving through the awful towns and villages of country. Bar a small percentage, I couldn't agree more.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    If you have to live in middle of nowhere because you don't like living in a town then go for it and accept the long-term consequences for yourselves and families.

    We do. It's called slow broadband, expensive waste collection, added fuel bills and a complete lack of public transport.
    The countryside is no place for young people unless they or their parents work the land.

    What kind of a ridiculous statement is that ?

    It's certainly not particularly "liberal" to impose your standards and beliefs on others, now is it ?
    it's a hugely emotive issue but I'd like one person that lives in a one off house in remote area to outlined the long-term benefits for their families as they see them and then realistically outlined the long term bad consequences. It can't be all good. be honest now.

    It's not all good, but all things considered, it's better.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,703 ✭✭✭Nermal


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    yes we pay more for everything from water to electricity including very high once off installation charges despite all of these services already running on the road we are on only few meters away.
    as for sewage i had to pay for an expensive treatment plant which has cleaner water coming out the other end of the bio system than taps in city :P

    Are you paying extra for your fire brigade service? For your ambulance? Are you paying the full cost of your child's trip to school, or the full cost of providing tiny schools up and down the country?

    There are a vast number of ways in which you're not paying your way - you just haven't thought of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Nermal wrote: »
    Are you paying extra for your fire brigade service? For your ambulance? Are you paying the full cost of your child's trip to school, or the full cost of providing tiny schools up and down the country?

    There are a vast number of ways in which you're not paying your way - you just haven't thought of them.

    Whose taxes in years gone by helped pay and establish cities fire brigade services? cities ambulance? cities schools? cities sanitation?
    Because I can tell you in earlier years the country mice outnumbered the city mice.
    It's only now ye started squeakin'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 289 ✭✭feicim


    Considering that dispersed settlements has been the Irish way for the last 10000 years why do have them an taisce people and the planning people telling us that we cant live in the country anymore and should instead focus on towns and cities. I mean what exactly is gong on here, you wouldnt believe the amount of people I know that have been turned down permission because of these busybodies sticking their noses into the affairs of our parish and what gets built there.
    .. ancient Irish living patterns in rural places.

    You didn't get the "ancient irish" building their crannógs and hill forts and what have you in the middle of nowhere and then whinging because they have no bus service and bad roads and no broadband, and they are 2 hours or whatever from the nearest hiospital.

    Developments that are in clusters and near to infrastructure are cheaper to maintain and are more sustainable.

    The average "modern" Irish person isn't up to speed on the intracies of sustainable development etc and needs to be protected from him/herself. If you percieve a professional, educated planner a busybody who's trying to spoil everybodies fun you're a bit of the mark.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Nermal wrote: »
    Are you paying extra for your fire brigade service? For your ambulance? Are you paying the full cost of your child's trip to school, or the full cost of providing tiny schools up and down the country?

    There are a vast number of ways in which you're not paying your way - you just haven't thought of them.

    Theres a school less than 2KM away on a quiet road, of course there is no public transport (nor expect any) so pay plenty for the privilege of using own car
    I pay plenty for own healthcare and get nothing from state despite paying plenty in "social" charges, and i don't expect the fire brigade ever to arrive in time hence the insurance.
    Me and my company pay more than enough taxes, thank you very much :(


    god forbid people/companies choose to live/work where they want on this little island!
    maybe we should have a centrally planned authority :rolleyes: directing peoples lives, telling us where we can or cannot live and work :rolleyes:
    i know they can keep an eye on us proles via 2 way televisions in our rooms piping in fresh daily propaganda
    oh wait where was that tried/heard before :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,709 ✭✭✭jd


    mikom wrote: »
    Whose taxes in years gone by helped pay and establish cities fire brigade services? cities ambulance? cities schools? cities sanitation?
    Because I can tell you in earlier years the country mice outnumbered the city mice.
    It's only now ye started squeakin'

    Cities pay their way and more in modern civilisations. I've no real problem with people wanting to live in the countryside, but long distance commuting is just not sustainable.
    I have sisters living in Germany and Italy, in villages, and villages do work.
    However, people should be allowed self built houses in existing villages and clusters, but surely building houses miles from everybody else is a bit pointless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    jd wrote: »
    Cities pay their way and more in modern civilisations. I've no real problem with people wanting to live in the countryside, but long distance commuting is just not sustainable.
    I have sisters living in Germany and Italy, in villages, and villages do work.
    However, people should be allowed self built houses in existing villages and clusters, but surely building houses miles from everybody else is a bit pointless.

    My commute is about 20 seconds it takes me to walk from my bedroom to the home office

    beat that :P


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,709 ✭✭✭jd


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    My commute is about 20 seconds it takes me to walk from my bedroom to the home office

    beat that :P

    Mine too when I work from home.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    jd wrote: »
    Mine too when I work from home.

    :) (i was about to make a joke but will hold back :D)


    anyways if you if you had the option of working from home all time
    would you not choose a bigger (well built) house for your family, with fresher air, less crime/noise and land which you can use for growing veg etc?
    and not cost you most of your life in mortgage payments


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    jd wrote: »
    but surely building houses miles from everybody else is a bit pointless.

    Ah..Heaven.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Liberalbrehon


    What kind of a ridiculous statement is that ?

    It's certainly not particularly "liberal" to impose your standards and beliefs on others, now is it ?

    you're right it's not, it was a throw away remark.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    you're right it's not, it was a throw away remark.

    Consider it thrown away, so!


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