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Is Irish a Dead Language?

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  • #62
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Deise, I'm doing an MA in Irish this year. You are correct, the language is not dead. It is very much in danger though.

    Unfortunately, the way you're conducting this thread is doing your cause no favours. Throwing a list of useful links up in your OP does not equate to providing proof.


  • #63
    Monsieur Folie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Monsieur Folie


    Insect Overlord wrote: »

    Unfortunately, the way you're conducting this thread is doing your cause no favours. Throwing a list of useful links up in your OP does not equate to providing proof.

    That was my point. I'm willing to listen to anything you have on proving me wrong, Deise. Saying "It's not dead!" over and over and over isn't doing much to change my mind..


  • #64
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Monsieur Folie wrote: »
    That was my point. I'm willing to listen to anything you have on proving me wrong, Deise. Saying "It's not dead!" over and over and over isn't doing much to change my mind..

    I'll see what I can do. Will post back here around 9:30 tomorrow night with some interesting articles, if I can find copies of them on-line. Trouble is, most of the ones I have access to are written as Gaeilge ;)


  • #65
    sdanseo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Confab wrote: »
    Irish is for D4 heads, wanker politicians and teachers. End of story.

    Níl mé as D4, níl mé teachta dála agus níl múinteoir mé. Tá tú mícheart. (probaly a couple of grammatical errors there)

    I'm not a D4 head, politician or teacher. Explain how my admittedly small and not very thorough ghrá for the Irish language could possibly exist then?

    Irish was spoken here for thousands of years. To let it slide into oblivion through nothing less than laziness is tantamount to pissing on Pádraig Pearse's grave. If it had been taught PROPERLY for the last few decades, rather than in a pissy, unprioritised, layabout fashion, the opinion that Irish is unimportant would be abhorrent to almost everyone.


  • #66
    Monsieur Folie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Monsieur Folie


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    I'll see what I can do. Will post back here around 9:30 tomorrow night with some interesting articles, if I can find copies of them on-line. Trouble is, most of the ones I have access to are written as Gaeilge ;)

    My Irish is average at best, but I'll be back tomorrow anyway to read (or attempt to read, if it's Irish) what you have to say.. :)


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  • #67
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Monsieur Folie wrote: »
    That was my point. I'm willing to listen to anything you have on proving me wrong, Deise. Saying "It's not dead!" over and over and over isn't doing much to change my mind..

    That was only in response to someone saying over and over again that its dead without even attempting to back themselves up.

    Anyway, The accepted definition of a dead language is a language that has no native speakers, Irish therefore cannot be dead as there are several thousand native speakers of Irish. The reason I started the thread was that it struck me that the one thing you hear more than any other as a put down for Irish is that its a dead language, despite the fact that it is simply not true.


  • #68
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    I'll see what I can do. Will post back here around 9:30 tomorrow night with some interesting articles, if I can find copies of them on-line. Trouble is, most of the ones I have access to are written as Gaeilge ;)

    Surely this highlights the problem in one sentence.

    The fact that the documents you speak of that appear in the language being discussed should need translation into english says a lot.


  • #69
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    sdonn wrote: »
    Níl mé as D4, níl mé teachta dála agus níl múinteoir mé. Tá tú mícheart. (probaly a couple of grammatical errors there)

    I'm not a D4 head, politician or teacher. Explain how my admittedly small and not very thorough ghrá for the Irish language could possibly exist then?

    Irish was spoken here for thousands of years. To let it slide into oblivion through nothing less than laziness is tantamount to pissing on Pádraig Pearse's grave. If it had been taught PROPERLY for the last few decades, rather than in a pissy, unprioritised, layabout fashion, the opinion that Irish is unimportant would be abhorrent to almost everyone.

    An absolutely preposterous suggestion.

    Padraig Pearse' contribution to irish history and the contribution of his contemporaries transcends the influence or importance of the irish language.


  • #70
    Monsieur Folie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Monsieur Folie


    deise go deo wrote: »
    That was only in response to someone saying over and over again that its dead without even attempting to back themselves up.

    Anyway, The accepted definition of a dead language is a language that has no native speakers, Irish therefore cannot be dead as there are several thousand native speakers of Irish. The reason I started the thread was that it struck me that the one thing you hear more than any other as a put down for Irish is that its a dead language, despite the fact that it is simply not true.

    So that would mean if just one person still spoke it and referred to it as their native language, it could not be classified as dead? Even though by all intents and purposes, it would be completely dead with the exception of this one person that still insisted on claiming it as a native language? That's an exaggeration, but you get what I mean.


  • #71
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Monsieur Folie wrote: »
    So that would mean if just one person still spoke it and referred to it as their native language, it could not be classified as dead? Even though by all intents and purposes, it would be completely dead with the exception of this one person that still insisted on claiming it as a native language? That's an exaggeration, but you get what I mean.

    In a very tecnical sence in the same way a species is not 'extinct' until the last example is actually dead, however in the case of it being concidered dead you can assume it is dead when there is little chance of it being pased on to the next generation, this is not the case with Irish though, the last Native Irish speaker hasent been born yet,:)

    Also the Gaelscoil movement, which has expanded increadably over the past 30 years means that if anything the trend of decline is more likley to be reversed than it is to continue.


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  • #72
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,050 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Monsieur Folie wrote: »
    My Irish is average at best, but I'll be back tomorrow anyway to read (or attempt to read, if it's Irish) what you have to say.. :)

    I've found one from 2006 that's written in both Irish and English, outlining the hope that Ireland could develop into a bilingual country. Some of the percentages given are probably a little inflated (I love the language but I doubt as much as 3% of the population run their households in Irish) but it does begin to show that there is still a sizable minority keeping the language alive.

    http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/StatementontheIrishLanguage2006.pdf
    orourkeda wrote: »
    Surely this highlights the problem in one sentence.

    The fact that the documents you speak of that appear in the language being discussed should need translation into english says a lot.

    Indeed it does say a lot. It says that not only are there educated professionals working in the language, but also that there is an awareness of an audience who can read documentation in Irish.

    The fact that a huge proportion of the country cannot do so says a lot about how poorly Irish is approached from an educational point of view.
    orourkeda wrote: »
    An absolutely preposterous suggestion.

    +1.

    Trying to usurp the language for pseudo-political causes does more harm than good, and the association with militant republicanism is an unfortunate one.


  • #73
    arid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 ✭arid


    It's not dead it's on life support and it saddens me how some Irish people seemingly delight in this fact. :confused:


  • #74
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    arid wrote: »
    It's not dead it's on life support and it saddens me how some Irish people seemingly delight in this fact. :confused:

    Why?


  • #75
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Monsieur Folie wrote: »
    So that would mean if just one person still spoke it and referred to it as their native language, it could not be classified as dead? Even though by all intents and purposes, it would be completely dead with the exception of this one person that still insisted on claiming it as a native language? That's an exaggeration, but you get what I mean.

    Another thing to note is that if a language 'dies' that isent necessarily the end, The last native speaker of the Manxs language(Isle of Man) died in the 60's but since then the language has under gone a revival and there is now a school that teaches kids through Manxs on the Isle of man, Meaning that there is a good possibility that it will once again have native speakers in coming years.

    The revival was made possible in part due to recordings made of it in the 30's by the Irish Government.(Manxs is a close relative of Irish linguistically)


  • #76
    Monsieur Folie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,988 ✭✭✭Monsieur Folie


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Another thing to note is that if a language 'dies' that isent necessarily the end

    Yeah, I don't disagree with you there..

    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    I've found one from 2006 that's written in both Irish and English, outlining the hope that Ireland could develop into a bilingual country. Some of the percentages given are probably a little inflated (I love the language but I doubt as much as 3% of the population run their households in Irish) but it does begin to show that there is still a sizable minority keeping the language alive.

    http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/StatementontheIrishLanguage2006.pdf

    A lot of the things mentioned in that do sound like they'd give the Irish language a massive boost, but the majority of them don't seem to have implemented in my locality. I haven't a clue where the nearest Gaelscoil is to here, for one thing. That probably explains how I formed my perspective on it, though, because with the exception of a few people travelling to the Gaeltacht every year, Irish is never used outside of school where I live (to my knowledge).

    So, after looking at the bigger picture, Irish isn't dead..


  • #77
    DyldeBrill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭DyldeBrill


    Irish is not dead at all.I'm a student at the moment studying in an Acadamh out in carraroe.I'm from Dublin myself and I could not believe how much its spoken around those areas.Yes I know its the Gaeltacht but even tg4 is becoming more popular and radio stations are adopting the language too.I think its growing


  • #78
    arid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 ✭arid


    orourkeda wrote: »
    Why?

    Because it's sad. It's our language, it's a part of who we are.

    Nobody has to like it but the whole strong hatred towards it I don't get. Some cultural cringe/inferiority complex or something? :confused: I mean lots of things are compulsory at school but nobody hates them with the same intensity. What exactly is going on to cause that? We have no reason to be ashamed of our own culture.

    Nobody has to like it or has to speak it. Don't think it makes them less Irish if they don't. I just don't get why someone would hate it.


  • #79
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Monsieur Folie wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't disagree with you there..




    A lot of the things mentioned in that do sound like they'd give the Irish language a massive boost, but the majority of them don't seem to have implemented in my locality. I haven't a clue where the nearest Gaelscoil is to here, for one thing. That probably explains how I formed my perspective on it, though, because with the exception of a few people travelling to the Gaeltacht every year, Irish is never used outside of school where I live (to my knowledge).

    So, after looking at the bigger picture, Irish isn't dead..

    :) I consider the thread to be an outstanding success(Rocky start excepted)

    Indeed, many proposals have not been properly implemented, take point 6 for example, the support for Gaelscoileanna has been stalled. There hasent been a new one recognized by the state since 2008, there are currently campaign's for 16 new gaelscoileanna to be recognized around the country.

    For your local Gaelscoil. Naisc

    This one has decided to go ahead without state support. It is being supported by the local community and Irish Language organisations. Naisc


  • #80
    EverEvolving
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭EverEvolving


    I haven’t read the entire thread so I don’t know if this has been said or not; however … It's not dead no, but apart from the romanticism of it being our original language then I don't see the point in it being taught in schools when a useful language could be taught instead - German, Spanish, French & Mandarin would all be a hell of a lot more useful to Irish kids than the Irish language.

    I was told before that learning Irish in school "taught you how to learn a language" but I don't agree with that, maybe it teaches you that verbs are not always as they are in English but that is all.

    I think learning a language is very different to learning another subject; it’s not something you can study and learn off or even understand like maths or science, it’s something you have to comprehend and almost feel.

    If Irish was more widely spoken then obviously it would be useful but like it or not, most people don’t speak it because it cannot be used daily, if it was then it would possibly flourish.

    Don’t get me wrong, I like the sound of the Irish language - me and my sister speak Irish, German and Spanish in mixed sentences to each other and only we can comprehend the sentence structure so it’s good when discreet communication is needed.


  • #81
    orourkeda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,918 ✭✭✭✭orourkeda


    arid wrote: »
    Because it's sad. It's our language, it's a part of who we are.

    Nobody has to like it but the whole strong hatred towards it I don't get. Some cultural cringe/inferiority complex or something? :confused: I mean lots of things are compulsory at school but nobody hates them with the same intensity. What exactly is going on to cause that? We have no reason to be ashamed of our own culture.

    Nobody has to like it or has to speak it. Don't think it makes them less Irish if they don't. I just don't get why someone would hate it.

    How can a language that the majority of us dont speak be a part of us?

    The cultural impact of the Irish language in modern Ireland is verging on the negligible


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  • #82
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Monsieur Folie wrote: »
    I haven't a clue where the nearest Gaelscoil is to here,

    Also, One of the 16 new Gaelscoileanna being campaigned for is in New Ross.:)


  • #83
    sdanseo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Insect Overlord wrote: »
    Trying to usurp the language for pseudo-political causes does more harm than good, and the association with militant republicanism is an unfortunate one.

    The two are inextricably linked, and I was using the fact to illustrate a point, nothing more.

    Without wanting to sound like a typical American spouting on about freedom and military successes and other malinformed bull**** that they come up with - people fought to gain this country's independence from an occupying force who were documented to have beaten and even killed people for speaking Irish in front of them. To ignore the language when people sacrificed so much for it and other liberties we now take for granted is bad enough, but most people seem to do so only because they simply aren't arsed broadening their horizons to learn a little culture.

    When I was in school, the attitude to Irish was why fúcking bother, bah its basically a free period - and the teacher I had at lower level seemed to give up and agree. Didn't bother setting much work, didn't ensure homework was done, accepted that her class was full of lazy morons who couldn't give two shíts about Irish. (I was genuinely slow at the language, and I was relegated to pass level pre-JC and couldnt get back up to honours despite desperately wanting to - another sign of the stupidity of how it's taught).

    Put it in perspective - there are people who devote their lives to archaeology, digging up tiny pieces of heritage from thousands of years ago.

    Irish was around in huge majority until not long before the turn of the last century.

    A little extra work to keep alive a bit of heritage which is intrinsic to the whole character of this country is something every citizen of Ireland should be happy to do - and in my opinion if they're happy to cast aside something as important as what was until very recently our primary language, then they by default cast aside their right to be Irish. That doesn't and never will mean that everyone has to speak it or be fluent in it - but to have respect for it.


  • #84
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    sdonn wrote: »
    If it had been taught PROPERLY for the last few decades, rather than in a pissy, unprioritised, layabout fashion, the opinion that Irish is unimportant would be abhorrent to almost everyone.

    One would have thought that the language would have taken off after independence (1922), but here we are eight decades later with many people beginning to ask questions as to the relevancy of the Irish language in day to day life, which then begs the question "Does the Mandatory/Compulsive teaching of Irish still have a place in modern Ireland"? Does the massive cost justify the very poor overall results?

    Irish is not dead, but its certainly not the spoken language of the the Irish people today (minority acknowledged).


  • #85
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Saila wrote: »
    Tá, air aigh leat go dti sneachta

    Where is the English translation?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056112233


  • #86
    Kev_ps3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    Thousands of people speak is regularly so its clearly not dead.


  • #87
    CrazyRabbit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭CrazyRabbit


    CrazyRabbit wrote: »
    The fact that I cannot answer this question in that language despite being here for 35 years would indicate that the answer is not a positive one.
    flahavaj wrote: »
    That just shows you're a bit stoopid tbh.

    I can answer the question in French or Dutch though. I'm not stupid, I just never seen any benefit to learning Irish which is an personal indication of how useless it is.

    (btw...personal insults are against the charter. Perhaps you should read it)


  • #88
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No, it's not dead. Not yet. They need to completely revamp the way they teach Irish for it to survive. TG4 does a relatively good job of keeping Irish cool, as it were, with extremely well written shows like Ros na Rún and by getting relatively well known people to speak Irish; the Cold Case team in that advert and Stephen Fry as a cameo.


  • #89
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    old_aussie wrote: »
    Where is the English translation?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056112233

    For a small post like that I think it would be very off form for any kind of infraction to be handed down, I have seen a thread in AH a few weeks ago that ended up being half in Russian(Google Translate)

    'Ничего не было сделано, то об этом.'

    Now, if Russian is allowed for short little posts then I don't see why Irish should be treated differently, Especially when if you wanted to know what was said it is literally a half a minute job to put it into google translate and find out.


  • #90
    Greyfox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,146 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    arid wrote: »

    Nobody has to like it but the whole strong hatred towards it I don't get. Some cultural cringe/inferiority complex or something? :confused: I mean lots of things are compulsory at school but nobody hates them with the same intensity. What exactly is going on to cause that? We have no reason to be ashamed of our own culture.

    Nobody has to like it or has to speak it. Don't think it makes them less Irish if they don't. I just don't get why someone would hate it.

    Because so many of us resent the fact that we spent 12 or so years learning a language that was for so many Irish people a complete and utter waste of time (and taxpayers money), I like so many others only remember about 20 words of Irish which is a shocking waste of 12 years.

    As it's been pointed out many times it's the absolutely terrible way the language is taught that breeds this resentment and I at one time hated Irish with a passion. I no longer hate the language but that's only because I haven't had to use an Irish word for over ten years, it's more indifference now. Many of us just don't see the point when we could of been learning a usefull language like French or German instead.

    Also I think making Irish optional would be one of the ways of making less people hate Irish but I don't see this happening and instead Irish will be forced on my kids as well.


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  • #91
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    sdonn wrote: »
    The two are inextricably linked, and I was using the fact to illustrate a point, nothing more.

    No they are not,
    Pearce and Co did indeed fight for Irish freedom and for an 'Irish' Ireland, But that dosent then mean that anyone can gain legitimacy for their cause by wrapping the green flag round themselves.

    Irish is not the sole property of republicans, It belongs to everyone on this Island, including Unionists.


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