Is Meat Murder?

--Kaiser-- · 03-12-2010 03:46PM

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

I've never understood these arguments about brain size when you look
at species like elephants who have comparable features & high intelligence.
If brain size was so important you'd think those species with bigger
brains would be more intelligent than us but that's obviously a
horrendous argument. So size isn't everything. In this context to answer
your argument I'd ask how an elephant has such a big brain based off
of a herbivorous diet? Your argument is simply an example of the fallacy
of correlation & causation. The way you put it one implies the other
yet there are examples contrary to your arguments so how does
one imply the other in one case but not in the other? In this example
the other is almost mirror opposite of your claim...

Here we go. You're speaking of absolute size. Elephants have a small brain relative to their (impressive) size.
We have very large brains relative to our size, they also use one fifth of our energy. We would not have been able to form such large societies without lots of nutrients. Fats, are especially important in the the development of our advanced brain. If we hadn't adapted to eating more animal products we would still be flinging shit at each other in the jungle.

If it does to you then that's great, I don't think it does & it seems many
others don't either but misusing science in this thread among people
who are more than open to anything semi-official to fuel their
confirmation bias is simply horrendous. You're the one who first put the
arguments out there about evolution & the detriment of B12 in a
vegetarian/vegan diet & I've just called you on that. Also if evolution
gave us X there is simply no mandate that we must keep X, in fact
the point of evolution is that if something can adapt and survive then
more the power to it. I simply believe that there is no reason why we
can't consciously choose to do this, to think for ourselves as to the
reasons why we shouldn't do something if it seems logical as opposed to
doing what was ingrained in us from children. This argument is convincing
to some & not others & that's fine, the only considerations that really
matter are health & seeing as there is no scientific basis for fears that
a vegan/vegetarian diet, when done properly, will lead us astray I don't
see the point in criticizing those who choose to go for it.

I'm not criticisng anyone for having a diet, unless they force such a diet upon their children. I'm merely refuting faulty science. Eat what you like, just don't pretend it's healthy, or more correctly, as healthy as it could be.

sponsoredwalk · 03-12-2010 04:05PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Here we go. You're speaking of absolute size. Elephants have a small brain relative to their (impressive) size.
We have very large brains relative to our size, they also use one fifth of our energy. We would not have been able to form such large societies without lots of nutrients. Fats, are especially important in the the development of our advanced brain. If we hadn't adapted to eating more animal products we would still be flinging shit at each other in the jungle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio#Criticism
I actually wasn't only speaking of absolute size but still, not only is your
method of judgement on this topic extremely liable for criticism, even if we
acknowledge it's validity elephants rank third on the chart they use so
your claim about meats and fatty foods fueling brain size is just incorrect.
One must ask why dinosaurs had such small brains with all that meat
they ate but again it requires facing contrary opinions before making
wild claims...

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I'm not criticisng anyone for having a diet, unless they force such a diet upon their children. I'm merely refuting faulty science. Eat what you like, just don't pretend it's healthy, or more correctly, as healthy as it could be.

Faulty science is that which you promulgate claiming that it's not
healthy when there are studies indicating no significant
differences, but yeah unsourced claims from you that follow previously
false claims have some validity when you want them to be true :rolleyes:

--Kaiser-- · 03-12-2010 04:17PM

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Faulty science is that which you promulgate claiming that it's not
healthy when there are studies indicating no significant
differences, but yeah unsourced claims from you that follow previously
false claims have some validity when you want them to be true :rolleyes:

I honestly don't know what you're arguing about, or which claims I made.

As regards your studies, I was referring to vegan diets this whole thread, I would consider vegetarian diets to be miles ahead of vegan diets in terms of nutrition. Not ideal, but much, much better.

OutlawPete · 03-12-2010 04:19PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I hope you're not one of those fruitcakes who think raw vegetables have 'live' digestive enzymes.....

Wish I was, as then you would be guilty of personal abuse.

Damn.

sponsoredwalk · 03-12-2010 04:33PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I honestly don't know what you're arguing about, or which claims I made.

As regards your studies, I was referring to vegan diets this whole thread, I would consider vegetarian diets to be miles ahead of vegan diets in terms of nutrition. Not ideal, but much, much better.

Did you even read the links? Studies about vegan children are included...
I'd love to see where your studies about vegetarians being much much
better are when the stuff I've actually cited mentions no major differences
at all. Still we'll just accept your claims of unsourced yet scientific
evidence then because you say so...

As for your claims I disagree with, well first there's the one about
animals being the only source of B12, then there's the one about
raw food being contrary to evolutionary & biological knowledge,
then there's the one about vegan diets not having enough B12,
then there's the one about evolution and brain size, then there's
the one about faulty science, then there's the one about the
difference between vegan & vegetarian diets in terms of nutrition.
Quite a list you've accumulated in these past few posts wouldn't
you say & notice not a shred of evidence in support of any of these
wild claims yet I've provided in nearly every post links to back up what I
say. This to me is the sign of pure waffle & if you were in any way serious
about anything you say you'd have backed up something by this stage
with credible evidence or at least read the links I give to see that you
are in fact talking nonsense (especially since you missed the fact the last link I gave
explicitly has a section on vegan children in the UK & America, but I mean who reads scientific
studies when they claim they have scientific knowledge? :rolleyes:).

dvet · 03-12-2010 04:39PM

Dillon Petite Quark wrote: »

You got to take a look at how a slaughter house works. Many of the animals seem to be in a lot of distress/pain.

They don't get shot in the head with a bullet that follows through, they are hit with a metal bar that stuns them. <NOT TRUE>The animal is on a line, the operator doesn't spend too much time trying to make sure the animal is not aware of what is going on. <NOT TRUE>

Look, I've read half of this thread and it is ridiculous. There is a LOT of misinformation out there and silly arguments on BOTH sides. I am big into animal welfare; it's half my job! & I can tell you i have no problem eating Irish beef. This is because I know EXACTLY what goes into breeding, raising them and slaughtering them. If you want to know the truth about where your burgers are coming from, here it is:

The Actual Life of an Irish Beef Animal (good bits and bad!):

- The calves may be born to beef cows, or also to dairy cows. If born to beef cows, they are raised on their mother's milk ("sucklers") and are weaned at a few months of age. If born to dairy cows, they are weaned in the first day or 2 of life and raised on leftover cow's milk or milk replacer, as well as silage/hay and nuts.
- They usually spend their first few weeks living inside. They spend the rest of their life living outside in groups for most of the summer and autumn, and are brought inside to live in sheds when the weather is bed (winter & early spring).
- They have a few potentially stressful points in their life: being weaned, being dehorned, and being castrated (the last 2 points are done mainly for safety and don't apply to all beef calves). There are animal welfare guidelines in place for all of these procedures which mean that if farmers carry out these procedures in a welfare friendly way, they get bonuses - which encourages good systems of animal welfare on farms.
- When the animals are fully grown (around 2 years old), they are brought to the factory. Many of the experiences they undergo at the factory are familiar to them: travelling in the lorry, being placed in pens, being moved through the 'race' (a type of single file passageway).
- They are not allowed to see any other animals being killed. They do not 'hear animals in distress' - there are none, if things are being done right!(explanation following - please read!)
- Most factories, especially those more recently built, are specifically designed to minimise stress before slaughter. Experts are often brought in at great expense to design factories in such a way (look up Temple Grandin: she is a world famous animal welfare expert who is unparalled in her job, and who has improved beef factory welfare immeasurably in countless countries around the world).
- When it is their turn to be slaughtered, they walk into a small pen which is around the same length and width as their bodies (i.e. they walk in and there's a wall in front of them, so they stop).
- A man standing slightly above them (out of their normal eyeline) puts a captive bolt gun up to the correct place on their forehead and instantanously pulls the trigger.
- The most important point, so I'll make it big!! THE DESIGN OF THE CAPTIVE BOLT GUN BULLET IS SUCH THAT THE BULLET DESTROYS THE PAIN CENTRE OF THE BRAIN BEFORE PAIN IS ABLE TO BE RELAYED TO THE BRAIN ITSELF. (Therefore the animal literaly isn't ABLE to feel or know that anything has happened.)
- The animal falls down the same moment the trigger is pulled. At this time they are unconscious and unaware of anything. They are immediately lifted out of the slaughter box and the major arteries of the neck are cut cleanly with a knife. This ensures immediate and quick death, and just to reiterate, the animal is TOTALLY UNAWARE of it happening.

Therefore, from the animal's point of view, all that has happened is that they arrive in a new place, they move along a queue following the other cattle, then they walk through a door and see a wall in front of them. And that is the last thing they ever remember. No pain, minimum stress. This is why I am fine about eating irish beef. I can't speak for other countries, but beef cattle which are raised and slaughtered in Ireland, have a nice life and a stress free death.

They only exception are those killed in rituals such as Halaal killing, which I respect is a religious thing, but it is genuinely a stressful and horrible death for the animal. I absolutely REFUSE to knowingly eat halaal beef because of this. (if it wasn't for religious sensitivites then this would never be legal in ireland but unfortunately it is).

Sorry for all the highlighted info but I just wish more people knew this stuff! It's frustrating to read people coming out with untrue things again and again.

/rant over!

dvet · 03-12-2010 04:43PM

p.s. i have no idea if anyone pointed out any of this stuff already as i got so sick of reading after the first few pages!

p.p.s. a lot of 'shocking videos' etc etc that people have are from factories in other countries and aren't applicable here, which i think also misleads people regarding what really goes on. Ireland has a higher standard of welfare than many other countries (for example standards in the US are pretty shocking at times)

marco_polo · 03-12-2010 05:58PM

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-to-body_mass_ratio#Criticism
I actually wasn't only speaking of absolute size but still, not only is your
method of judgement on this topic extremely liable for criticism, even if we
acknowledge it's validity elephants rank third on the chart they use so
your claim about meats and fatty foods fueling brain size is just incorrect.
One must ask why dinosaurs had such small brains with all that meat
they ate but again it requires facing contrary opinions before making
wild claims...

Complements on the well constructed strawman, however I am not aware of any simplistic scientific theory that has proposed meat as some sort of miracle grow for brains, ie eat meat = brain grows larger. What is beyond argument is that having a large brain need alot of energy and hence requires consuming alot of calories to maintain (even when it is doing very little). It should not need to be pointed out that in the case of elephants the strategy involves consuming vast quantities of low quality vegitation, and for hominids it is theorised that adding meat to suppliment a herbivous diet was the important extra source of calories, which allowed for increased brain growth (note not caused).

A high calorie diet allow is meerly an enabling factor in allowing an organism to develop the luxury of having a larger brain, other evolutionary factors drive the actual need to develop one. Of course nowadays with much more nutrient rich domesticated plants and modern farming vegitarinism is a viable and healthy option, it is far from clear that the was the case until very recently in human history.

ScumLord · 03-12-2010 06:13PM

dvet wrote: »

- The calves may be born to beef cows, or also to dairy cows. If born to beef cows, they are raised on their mother's milk ("sucklers") and are weaned at a few months of age. If born to dairy cows, they are weaned in the first day or

Why is that? Why the difference?

- They are not allowed to see any other animals being killed. They do not 'hear animals in distress' - there are none, if things are being done right!(explanation following - please read!)

I imagine it's a simple matter of managing the cattle as well. A stressed cow would be almost impossible to deal with.

Chuchoter · 03-12-2010 06:16PM

I think its because they need the milk to sell if they are dairy cows.

Also on the B12 point, you really do need B12. Its very important in terms of not developing/treating Alzheimers. It is not naturally present in plants, though it is in dairy products.

I completely disagree with parents making their children vegan/vegetarian. It is a very hard thing to balance correctly and any missing vitamins could severely damage a child's development

ScumLord · 03-12-2010 06:17PM

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think its because they need the milk to sell if they are dairy cows.

Oh yeah, duh moment.

sponsoredwalk · 03-12-2010 06:50PM

marco_polo wrote: »

Complements on the well constructed strawman, however I am not aware of any simplistic scientific theory that has proposed meat as some sort of miracle grow for brains, ie eat meat = brain grows larger.

Ignoring the strawman comment, neither am I aware of any scientific
theory stating that meat is miracle growth for brains, however:

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I think it makes sense to have a diet which we have evolved to eat; we could not have evolved such large brains without a fatty, nutrient rich animal diet.

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Here we go. You're speaking of absolute size. Elephants have a small brain relative to their (impressive) size.
We have very large brains relative to our size, they also use one fifth of our energy. We would not have been able to form such large societies without lots of nutrients. Fats, are especially important in the the development of our advanced brain. If we hadn't adapted to eating more animal products we would still be flinging shit at each other in the jungle.

You see I'm not the one advocating it, he was & I was correcting it in my
strawman way. As for the rest of your post I have few issues with it &
honestly don't know why you're telling me things I already know while
accusing me of building up strawmen that I was actually accusing
someone else of & correcting them on, but okay accuse me...

dvet · 03-12-2010 07:35PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I imagine it's a simple matter of managing the cattle as well. A stressed cow would be almost impossible to deal with.

Yeah, there's a few very good reasons for factories to be interested in keeping stress levels down:
- the safety aspect for workers
- the fact that it's easier to get the cattle to move where you want if they're not scared (i.e. just makes your job easier)
- the fact that a lot of consumers put importance on animal welfare
- EU encouragement
- some cuts of meat are more tender if the animal they came from was relaxed at the time of slaughter (stressed animal = lower quality meat)
- also, the fact that some factory managers are interested in animal welfare of their own accord - obviously they're not all that great, but some genuinely are concerned about welfare issues, which is nice to know!

So it's kind of win win all around

(god, I'm making all the lists today aren't I!)

High energy · 03-12-2010 07:44PM

dvet wrote: »

Look, I've read half of this thread and it is ridiculous. There is a LOT of misinformation out there and silly arguments on BOTH sides. I am big into animal welfare; it's half my job! & I can tell you i have no problem eating Irish beef. This is because I know EXACTLY what goes into breeding, raising them and slaughtering them. If you want to know the truth about where your burgers are coming from, here it is:

The Actual Life of an Irish Beef Animal (good bits and bad!):

- The calves may be born to beef cows, or also to dairy cows. If born to beef cows, they are raised on their mother's milk ("sucklers") and are weaned at a few months of age. If born to dairy cows, they are weaned in the first day or 2 of life and raised on leftover cow's milk or milk replacer, as well as silage/hay and nuts.
- They usually spend their first few weeks living inside. They spend the rest of their life living outside in groups for most of the summer and autumn, and are brought inside to live in sheds when the weather is bed (winter & early spring).
- They have a few potentially stressful points in their life: being weaned, being dehorned, and being castrated (the last 2 points are done mainly for safety and don't apply to all beef calves). There are animal welfare guidelines in place for all of these procedures which mean that if farmers carry out these procedures in a welfare friendly way, they get bonuses - which encourages good systems of animal welfare on farms.
- When the animals are fully grown (around 2 years old), they are brought to the factory. Many of the experiences they undergo at the factory are familiar to them: travelling in the lorry, being placed in pens, being moved through the 'race' (a type of single file passageway).
- They are not allowed to see any other animals being killed. They do not 'hear animals in distress' - there are none, if things are being done right!(explanation following - please read!)
- Most factories, especially those more recently built, are specifically designed to minimise stress before slaughter. Experts are often brought in at great expense to design factories in such a way (look up Temple Grandin: she is a world famous animal welfare expert who is unparalled in her job, and who has improved beef factory welfare immeasurably in countless countries around the world).
- When it is their turn to be slaughtered, they walk into a small pen which is around the same length and width as their bodies (i.e. they walk in and there's a wall in front of them, so they stop).
- A man standing slightly above them (out of their normal eyeline) puts a captive bolt gun up to the correct place on their forehead and instantanously pulls the trigger.
- The most important point, so I'll make it big!! THE DESIGN OF THE CAPTIVE BOLT GUN BULLET IS SUCH THAT THE BULLET DESTROYS THE PAIN CENTRE OF THE BRAIN BEFORE PAIN IS ABLE TO BE RELAYED TO THE BRAIN ITSELF. (Therefore the animal literaly isn't ABLE to feel or know that anything has happened.)
- The animal falls down the same moment the trigger is pulled. At this time they are unconscious and unaware of anything. They are immediately lifted out of the slaughter box and the major arteries of the neck are cut cleanly with a knife. This ensures immediate and quick death, and just to reiterate, the animal is TOTALLY UNAWARE of it happening.

Therefore, from the animal's point of view, all that has happened is that they arrive in a new place, they move along a queue following the other cattle, then they walk through a door and see a wall in front of them. And that is the last thing they ever remember. No pain, minimum stress. This is why I am fine about eating irish beef. I can't speak for other countries, but beef cattle which are raised and slaughtered in Ireland, have a nice life and a stress free death.

They only exception are those killed in rituals such as Halaal killing, which I respect is a religious thing, but it is genuinely a stressful and horrible death for the animal. I absolutely REFUSE to knowingly eat halaal beef because of this. (if it wasn't for religious sensitivites then this would never be legal in ireland but unfortunately it is).

Sorry for all the highlighted info but I just wish more people knew this stuff! It's frustrating to read people coming out with untrue things again and again.

/rant over!

Thanks for that, now could you provide such detailed information on the lives and welfare of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and lamb? Cows aren't the only animal people eat, in fact I would say most people eat a lot more chickens and pigs than cows. I am particularly interested in the information on broiler chickens (not free-range) Remembering the fact that a single chicken being killed only provides food for roughly 2 people for 1 dinner. Whereas a single cow being killed provides food for maybe 20-30 people for 1 dinner. I don't know why there is so much emphasis on welfare for cows when it's the chickens and pigs being killed in larger numbers and much worse conditions.

Btw I already know the answers, just interested to see would a meat-eater actually admit to having knowledge of it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 03-12-2010 07:59PM

Mrmoe wrote: »

Meat is not murder. I generally don't get along well with people who do not consume meat.

It's more to do with the fact that they force their opinions and ways on you. A guy I know goes out with a vegitarian, he's not allowed eat any meat around her... two of them are fools.

dvet wrote: »

Look, I've read half of this thread and it is ridiculous. There is a LOT of misinformation out there and silly arguments on BOTH sides. I am big into animal welfare; it's half my job! & I can tell you i have no problem eating Irish beef. This is because I know EXACTLY what goes into breeding, raising them and slaughtering them. If you want to know the truth about where your burgers are coming from, here it is:

The Actual Life of an Irish Beef Animal (good bits and bad!):

- The calves may be born to beef cows, or also to dairy cows. If born to beef cows, they are raised on their mother's milk ("sucklers") and are weaned at a few months of age. If born to dairy cows, they are weaned in the first day or 2 of life and raised on leftover cow's milk or milk replacer, as well as silage/hay and nuts.
- They usually spend their first few weeks living inside. They spend the rest of their life living outside in groups for most of the summer and autumn, and are brought inside to live in sheds when the weather is bed (winter & early spring).
- They have a few potentially stressful points in their life: being weaned, being dehorned, and being castrated (the last 2 points are done mainly for safety and don't apply to all beef calves). There are animal welfare guidelines in place for all of these procedures which mean that if farmers carry out these procedures in a welfare friendly way, they get bonuses - which encourages good systems of animal welfare on farms.
- When the animals are fully grown (around 2 years old), they are brought to the factory. Many of the experiences they undergo at the factory are familiar to them: travelling in the lorry, being placed in pens, being moved through the 'race' (a type of single file passageway).
- They are not allowed to see any other animals being killed. They do not 'hear animals in distress' - there are none, if things are being done right!(explanation following - please read!)
- Most factories, especially those more recently built, are specifically designed to minimise stress before slaughter. Experts are often brought in at great expense to design factories in such a way (look up Temple Grandin: she is a world famous animal welfare expert who is unparalled in her job, and who has improved beef factory welfare immeasurably in countless countries around the world).
- When it is their turn to be slaughtered, they walk into a small pen which is around the same length and width as their bodies (i.e. they walk in and there's a wall in front of them, so they stop).
- A man standing slightly above them (out of their normal eyeline) puts a captive bolt gun up to the correct place on their forehead and instantanously pulls the trigger.
- The most important point, so I'll make it big!! THE DESIGN OF THE CAPTIVE BOLT GUN BULLET IS SUCH THAT THE BULLET DESTROYS THE PAIN CENTRE OF THE BRAIN BEFORE PAIN IS ABLE TO BE RELAYED TO THE BRAIN ITSELF. (Therefore the animal literaly isn't ABLE to feel or know that anything has happened.)
- The animal falls down the same moment the trigger is pulled. At this time they are unconscious and unaware of anything. They are immediately lifted out of the slaughter box and the major arteries of the neck are cut cleanly with a knife. This ensures immediate and quick death, and just to reiterate, the animal is TOTALLY UNAWARE of it happening.

Therefore, from the animal's point of view, all that has happened is that they arrive in a new place, they move along a queue following the other cattle, then they walk through a door and see a wall in front of them. And that is the last thing they ever remember. No pain, minimum stress. This is why I am fine about eating irish beef. I can't speak for other countries, but beef cattle which are raised and slaughtered in Ireland, have a nice life and a stress free death.

They only exception are those killed in rituals such as Halaal killing, which I respect is a religious thing, but it is genuinely a stressful and horrible death for the animal. I absolutely REFUSE to knowingly eat halaal beef because of this. (if it wasn't for religious sensitivites then this would never be legal in ireland but unfortunately it is).

Sorry for all the highlighted info but I just wish more people knew this stuff! It's frustrating to read people coming out with untrue things again and again.

/rant over!

Not quite sure where you got this brainwashing information from but you are insinuating that every factory is like this. While I agree that there are some great modern factories, there are many more that do not operate in this way. As I already stated, I witnessed this first hand. Cow trashing about after it's throat is slit because the stun gun wasn't effective, "Oh that happens from time to time" was the operators reply. It's not all rosey in a slaughter house as you may like to believe. Slitting the throat of a mamal does not give it an instant death.

Want to give us the real reasons why the throat is slit?

dvet wrote: »

p.s. i have no idea if anyone pointed out any of this stuff already as i got so sick of reading after the first few pages!

p.p.s. a lot of 'shocking videos' etc etc that people have are from factories in other countries and aren't applicable here, which i think also misleads people regarding what really goes on. Ireland has a higher standard of welfare than many other countries (for example standards in the US are pretty shocking at times)

America is way down at the bottom imo. Sickening stuff.

High energy wrote: »

Thanks for that, now could you provide such detailed information on the lives and welfare of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and lamb? Cows aren't the only animal people eat, in fact I would say most people eat a lot more chickens and pigs than cows. I am particularly interested in the information on broiler chickens (not free-range) Remembering the fact that a single chicken being killed only provides food for roughly 2 people for 1 dinner. Whereas a single cow being killed provides food for maybe 20-30 people for 1 dinner. I don't know why there is so much emphasis on welfare for cows when it's the chickens and pigs being killed in larger numbers and much worse conditions.

Btw I already know the answers, just interested to see would a meat-eater actually admit to having knowledge of it.

I'm sure many meat eaters do, but do you think that would change their eating habbits?

High energy · 03-12-2010 08:05PM

Dillon Petite Quark wrote: »

I'm sure many meat eaters do, but do you think that would change their eating habbits?

Fair enough, but I didn't know for years (ignorance is bliss, etc) and it changed mine when I found out what was happening in these factories. One of the main reasons I don't eat meat !

dvet · 03-12-2010 09:01PM

Dillon Petite Quark wrote: »

Not quite sure where you got this brainwashing information from but you are insinuating that every factory is like this. While I agree that there are some great modern factories, there are many more that do not operate in this way. As I already stated, I witnessed this first hand. Cow trashing about after it's throat is slit because the stun gun wasn't effective, "Oh that happens from time to time" was the operators reply. It's not all rosey in a slaughter house as you may like to believe. Slitting the throat of a mamal does not give it an instant death.

Want to give us the real reasons why the throat is slit?

Number 1 - well, that's more than a little patronising :rolleyes: I'm actually a vet, so not only did I get extensive training on this whole topic over the course of years, i also have spent a lot of time in slaughter houses,all over Ireland. A large part of many large animal vet's jobs is factory work, as it is a legal requirement for factories to have vets on the premises at all times; they are responsible for overseeing welfare issues, to ensure that the animals are healthy and the resulting products are fit and safe for human consumption; and also to take samples to check for antibiotic residues etc which are not allowed to pass into the food chain).
I also grew up in the countryside surrounded by neighbours who raised animals for beef and a large part of my day is spent on farms working with cattle, sheep etc, so I know exactly how they are raised and what is involved. So that's where I got 'this brainwashing information from'!!

Number 2 - Stun gun operators are trained in the right spot to aim for before they are allowed to use them. This is not a very big area so accuracy is important. After an animal is stunned, a good stun gun operator monitors for signs that it may not have worked properly; these include coordinated breathing efforts, eye movements etc. If there is any doubt about it they stun the animal again, before it is bled. All animal's skulls are checked by vets down the line and if the vet sees extra stun marks on too many animals then a report is made about it, and the stun gun operator that is responsible is reprimanded/is made to do further training/etc. So there is quite strict measures taken to ensure things like this happen as rarely as possible.

Number 3 - I don't understand what you mean by 'real reasons'. The reason is to cause their death in a quick and effective manner. The stun gun's job is to produce an unconscious and unresponsive state - it does not kill the animal. The purpose of cutting the main blood vessels of the neck is to make them bleed out i.e. this is what actually causes their death, not the stun gun.

I HATE animal cruelty. I have a great respect for all animals and I am not against people being vegetarian at all. I never have been. What I don't like is people spreading around information that isn't true. My intention was to clarify what really goes on, as a lot of people don't really know - and to that end, If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

dvet · 03-12-2010 09:26PM

High energy wrote: »

Thanks for that, now could you provide such detailed information on the lives and welfare of chickens, turkeys, pigs, and lamb? Cows aren't the only animal people eat, in fact I would say most people eat a lot more chickens and pigs than cows. I am particularly interested in the information on broiler chickens (not free-range) Remembering the fact that a single chicken being killed only provides food for roughly 2 people for 1 dinner. Whereas a single cow being killed provides food for maybe 20-30 people for 1 dinner. I don't know why there is so much emphasis on welfare for cows when it's the chickens and pigs being killed in larger numbers and much worse conditions.

Btw I already know the answers, just interested to see would a meat-eater actually admit to having knowledge of it.

High energy, I'm going to ignore that slightly narky last line (;)) as I agree with you that intensive chicken and pig farm production have some major welfare issues, and I'm not entirely happy with them. As I've stated above, I am big on pro-animal welfare, and I HATE the thought of any animals suffering. In my original post my intention was to clear up some of the outright bull that kept popping up in earlier posts (both pro and anti meat eating), and a lot of that was directed at beef, so that's why I focused on it. If you want my opinion on other types of meat:

Battery chicken farming is indefensible in my opinion. Free range is better but still not perfect. The way they are slaughtered is not nice.

I actually love pigs and am not a big fan of how they are kept, (particularly sows - the piglets that are reared for meat have a comparitively good life, although still not great obviously). The difficult thing though is that some of the practices that seem to be cruel are actually a 'cruel to be kind' option... i.e. there's very real reasons why all of these things are done. Farrowing crates are there to prevent the very real, and very common problem of sows crushing their piglets when they lie down. Tail docking is done to prevent pigs from literally chewing the tails off of other pigs - not doing it is a fast way of causing some pigs to horribly mutilate each other. Sows being kept in seperate stalls rather than loose pens during their pregnancies helps to protect them from each other; fighting is common in groups of sows when kept together, and they can be really vicious. (its something that i worry about when the new legislation comes in in 2013; it seems like a welfare improvement but i suspect it's going to make things worse in some cases). A huge problem with pig farming is that it's impossible to make a living from it unless you have really huge numbers of animals. Having really huge numbers of animals then makes these intensive farming practices neccessary. Living in such large numbers in such close quarters makes the pigs more likely to bite/fight/etc, which in turn makes the 'cruel to be kind' practices a necessity. So it's a vicious circle - but that's a story for another day! As for the slaughter method of pigs, I don't really see any problems with those.

As for lambs, they are pretty naturally reared and i wouldn't see any welfare issues with how they're kept or how they're slaughtered.

And for all the reasons stated in my above posts, I am totally fine with how cattle are reared and slaughtered.

Anyway... i don't think 've ever done so much typing in one evening!!

Is Meat Murder?

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