Victim impact statement offensive...what did they expect?

Laminations · 03-12-2010 11:26AM

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing to do with a victim impact statement, however.

Its obviously disconnected.

Making the point that this was avoidable is disconnected? Like I said part of the impact is the recurrent thoughts and scenario playing of why the murder happened and how it could've been avoided. There is the saying 'don't beat yourself up about it' for a reason. Please elaborate on why you think it's disconnected, and indeed why you think it's xenophobic

Laminations · 03-12-2010 11:28AM

Nodin wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, do you have access to the full statement?

No but I've qualified my remarks as such in a previous post. With the information I've seen I can't see the offense or the xenophobia, you have, please explain where

biko · 03-12-2010 11:30AM

The four are Lithuanians Ricardas Dilys and Ruslanas Mineikas with an address at Goodtide Harbour, Patrick O’Connor of Ard na Dara, Clonard and Polish man Piotr Pasiak of Lower John Street.

Rebecca French’s family said in an emotive victim impact statement that those behind her death were "animals".

It continued: "People with criminal records in their own country should never be allowed to live among us."

If that was the worst of the statement the I hope Judge White doesn't read After Hours.

Nodin · 03-12-2010 11:31AM

Laminations wrote: »

Making the point that this was avoidable is disconnected? Like I said part of the impact is the recurrent thoughts and scenario playing of why the murder happened and how it could've been avoided. There is the saying 'don't beat yourself up about it' for a reason. Please elaborate on why you think it's disconnected, and indeed why you think it's xenophobic

I never said it was "xenophobic", because I haven't read the full statement. What I do know is that bringing EU free movement into it will not be seen by a court of law as relevant.

Laminations wrote: »

Like I said part of the impact is the recurrent thoughts and scenario playing of why the murder happened and how it could've been avoided.

.......thats going on court guidelines or your personal reading of it?

Laminations · 03-12-2010 11:32AM

General Zod wrote: »

They weren't convicted of murder,

Indeed, and im sure this impacts on the victims, no?

so perhaps making reference to them as murderers is what the whole "presumption of innocence" thing is about.

would this reference confuse the judge and influence his sentencing? He is obviously well aware of the presumption of innocence so he can just ignore this bit rather than castigating a family struggling to come to terms with a justice system that has failed them ON TOP of their tragic loss

Laminations · 03-12-2010 11:37AM

Nodin wrote: »

I never said it was "xenophobic", because I haven't read the full statement. What I do know is that bringing EU free movement into it will not be seen by a court of law as relevant.

Even if that policy of free movement allowed the criminals the opportunity to kill your family members? Were people prevented from discussing the helplessness of not being allowed fight back when an intruder came into their homes?

.......thats going on court guidelines or your personal reading of it?

So the court proscribes how you should be impacted? Why bother asking the victims how they've been affected, just let the courts tell us how they should feel.

Nodin · 03-12-2010 11:43AM

Laminations wrote: »

Even if that policy of free movement allowed the criminals the opportunity to kill your family members? Were people prevented from discussing the helplessness of not being allowed fight back when an intruder came into their homes?
.

.

You are again engaging in faulty logic (with a little appeal to emotion at the end)

Laminations wrote: »

So the court proscribed how you should be impacted? Why bother asking the victims how they've been affected, just let the courts tell us how they should feel.

You stated

Like I said part of the impact is the recurrent thoughts and scenario playing of why the murder happened and how it could've been avoided.

And I'd asked, as I ask again now - is that going on court guidelines or your personal reading of it?

Laminations · 03-12-2010 11:54AM

Nodin wrote: »

.

And I'd asked, as I ask again now - is that going on court guidelines or your personal reading of it?

Having worked with victims of crime and having a knowledge of human cognition and psychotherapy I know a bit about the mental processes and health of victims, you?

Nodin · 03-12-2010 11:59AM

Laminations wrote: »

Having worked with victims of crime and having a knowledge of human cognition and psychotherapy I know a bit about the mental processes and health of victims, you?

And behold, the appeal to authority.

This isn't about "human cognition and psychotherapy" or "mental processes and health of victims" its about the victims family having gone beyond the parameters allowed for a victim impact statement.

wolfpawnat · 03-12-2010 12:04PM

I do not see what is offensive about a person saying that people with criminal records in their own country should not be allowed here!?!?!

Seriously, I do not want to have to deal with another countries criminals, we have enough of our own. I am sure the authorities in their countries would feel the same if our criminals committed crimes in their country. Only difference is they have the Liathróidí to throw ours back to us!

That family have to suffer enough at the loss of a loved one without having to have the PC brigade on their back because they might offend someone. They are fúcking offending the rest of us with their BS!!!!

Nodin · 03-12-2010 12:07PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I do not see what is offensive about a person saying that people with criminal records in their own country should not be allowed here!?!?!

..................!!!

Its a victim impact statement to be read to a court, not a chance to discuss whatevers on their mind. Had they made the statement on the court steps after the trial, they'd be perfectly entitled to express their opinion however they wanted.

Laminations · 03-12-2010 12:08PM

Nodin wrote: »

And behold, the appeal to authority.

This isn't about "human cognition and psychotherapy" or "mental processes and health of victims" its about the victims family having gone beyond the parameters allowed for a victim impact statement.

Lol. You asked me what I was basing my opinion on. What are the parameters you mention? List them for me.... Or are you simply appealing to the authority of the judge, a man so learned that he shouldve been able to discount these transgressions and not allowed them influence his sentencing.

How would stating that criminals shouldn't be allowed free movement into Ireland even influence the sentencing for this crime?

General Zod · 03-12-2010 12:10PM

Laminations wrote: »

Indeed, and im sure this impacts on the victims, no?

would this reference confuse the judge and influence his sentencing? He is obviously well aware of the presumption of innocence so he can just ignore this bit rather than castigating a family struggling to come to terms with a justice system that has failed them ON TOP of their tragic loss

The judge is aware enough that because the family breached the terms of what should be in a Victim Impact Statement, that it was leaving grounds for a possible appeal to his sentence. So, rather than give grounds for an appeal, he's asked the DPP to examine the situation and see if a new VIS needs to be read in front of a new judge.

The Judge is doing everything in the interest of due process of law, and what he is doing is actually for the best interest of the law, and also the family.

Laminations · 03-12-2010 12:16PM

Nodin wrote: »

I never said it was "xenophobic", because I haven't read the full statement.

Don't make me laugh. You thanked the following post

Millicent wrote: »

There was reference to xenophobic statements which is not kosher.

So good = This has greatly upset our family and those men are very bad men.

Bad = This has greatly upset our family and it's just like Lithuanians to do something like this.

So how is this example comparable with what we know was said? It only feeds into your obsession with shouting 'bigot', 'xenophobe', 'racist'.

Now while I leave myself open for correction upon reading the full statement, nothing I've seen so far suggests xenophobia although you'd really love it to.
And the impact of a crime has much more to it than just the loss of the person.

Nodin · 03-12-2010 12:16PM

Laminations wrote: »

Lol. You asked me what I was basing my opinion on.

No, I asked if it was your personal opinion or based on the guidelines laid down for victim impact statements, as is fairly clear from the post. I didn't add in that you could use it to try and slipin an appeal to authority. A bit more careful reading and less "Lol" would help you greatly.

As regards whats permitted in the statement - only information pertaining to the family and victim, no attacks on the perpetrator or information outside the case.

Laminations · 03-12-2010 12:19PM

General Zod wrote: »

The judge is aware enough that because the family breached the terms of what should be in a Victim Impact Statement, that it was leaving grounds for a possible appeal to his sentence. So, rather than give grounds for an appeal, he's asked the DPP to examine the situation and see if a new VIS needs to be read in front of a new judge.

The Judge is doing everything in the interest of due process of law, and what he is doing is actually for the best interest of the law, and also the family.

There is a nice way if saying that. I want to know why he called a legitimate translation of the victims feelings 'offensive' and 'xenophobic'. It's totally unaympathetic to the victims.

Can you post a link to the accepted scope of a victim impact statement?

Laminations · 03-12-2010 12:22PM

Nodin wrote: »

No, I asked if it was your personal opinion or based on the guidelines laid down for victim impact statements, as is fairly clear from the post. I didn't add in that you could use it to try and slipin an appeal to authority. A bit more careful reading and less "Lol" would help you greatly.

And I've asked you to point to the part of the guidelines that limits victims to talking about direct impacts and procludes them from wondering why a crime happened and how this questioning is a torture to them

thebullkf · 03-12-2010 12:23PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I do not see what is offensive about a person saying that people with criminal records in their own country should not be allowed here!?!?!

Seriously, I do not want to have to deal with another countries criminals, we have enough of our own. I am sure the authorities in their countries would feel the same if our criminals committed crimes in their country. Only difference is they have the Liathróidí to throw ours back to us!

That family have to suffer enough at the loss of a loved one without having to have the PC brigade on their back because they might offend someone. They are fúcking offending the rest of us with their BS!!!!

so people who've committed a crime,served their sentence ..shouldn't be allowed leave/enter ireland??

you can't block foreigners,and allow irish (ex) criminals alone....jesus,people need to get offf their high horse.
the justice system is there to punish crininals,and rehabilitate where possible.. so padraig nally should never be allowed leave ireland....people jailed (even for a day,due to no TV licence,protest etc) should not be allowed visit other countries??
because thats whats being implied....

the VIS was prejudicial,simple as. Judge made the right call-now his sentencing won't seem reactionary.

Nodin · 03-12-2010 12:23PM

Laminations wrote: »

There is a nice way if saying that. I want to know why he called a legitimate translation of the victims feelings

Its not supposed to be a "translation of the victims feelings". You seem unable to grasp the concept of whats involved here.

curlzy · 03-12-2010 12:24PM

Predalien wrote: »

Justice Barry White seems to have a negative opinion of victim impact statements in general, I can't remember the case but I do recall he once described a victim impact statement in a murder case as 'disingenuous'. That's very harsh on any family of a murder victim.

I remember that case, linky:http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0706/mahonm.html anyway IMO he was completely correct in calling it disingenuous, her family/mother were complete scum who failed her over and over and over and then went on the "poor us" route in the VIS. They didn't give a **** about her when she was alive.

Liam Byrne · 03-12-2010 12:24PM

The victim impact statement doesn't say anything that I wouldn't say myself, to be quite honest.

Whether it was the appropriate platform to voice it is another story, and whether it reveals an underlying "American History X" style prejudice.

AFAIK, you can't get into America or Australia if you have a criminal record - why doesn't the same apply here ?

And the word "animals" is appropriate (although insulting to animals) and would apply to anyone of any nationality including Irish who did the same thing.

elainers · 03-12-2010 12:25PM

Laminations wrote: »

Lol. You asked me what I was basing my opinion on. What are the parameters you mention? List them for me.... Or are you simply appealing to the authority of the judge, a man so learned that he shouldve been able to discount these transgressions and not allowed them influence his sentencing.

How would stating that criminals shouldn't be allowed free movement into Ireland even influence the sentencing for this crime?

I don't think the judge is saying that this will influence his sentencing. He's saying that the defence may use the fact that it could have impacted on his sentencing in order to get an appeal for the accused in the case and get their sentences quashed. I wouldn't say he is coming out against the family in this, but at whoever in the prosecution's team who allowed them to include something which would potentially leave a loophole for those convicted to appeal on. If you think about it, then they would be let off on two technicalities!

And to be honest, I think it would be right to curtail what the family say in their victim impact statement if it may have an effect on appeals or potentially be used to quash a conviction – not doing this does not benefit the family which is surely the main point of a victim impact statement.

Laminations · 03-12-2010 12:27PM

Nodin wrote: »

Its a victim impact statement to be read to a court, not a chance to discuss whatevers on their mind.

Ah yes, trivialise their point, sure what they said is comparable to them talking about how much they love the x-factor. You belittle them with your purposeful ignorance

General Zod · 03-12-2010 12:30PM

Laminations wrote: »

There is a nice way if saying that. I want to know why he called a legitimate translation of the victims feelings 'offensive' and 'xenophobic'. It's totally unaympathetic to the victims.

Can you post a link to the accepted scope of a victim impact statement?

I can't find one at the moment, but I'm fairly sure that calling them murderers while there is still a murder investigation ongoing is a little out of the rules.

Can't find the actual scope, but here's a good article about them http://www.articlesbase.com/journalism-articles/victim-impact-statement-ireland-3566073.html

Laminations · 03-12-2010 12:30PM

Nodin wrote: »

Its not supposed to be a "translation of the victims feelings". You seem unable to grasp the concept of whats involved here.

What is it supposed to be? You seem to fail to grasp the fragility of victims and the appropriateness of a judge branding them offensive xenophobes. You agree with the judge and what he said. I might agree with his goal but not his methods.

Nodin · 03-12-2010 12:32PM

Laminations wrote: »

Ah yes, trivialise their point, sure what they said is comparable to them talking about how much they love the x-factor. You belittle them with your purposeful ignorance

And yet more disengenous appeals to emotion. The parameters of the statement are very limited. They strayed outside them on three counts - a personal attack on the perpetrators, inference of guilt, and information unrelated (movement in the EU).

For somebody who earlier claimed to know a lot about victims, you don't seem to well advised as to whats permitted and what isn't.

Laminations · 03-12-2010 12:39PM

Nodin wrote: »

And yet more disengenous appeals to emotion. The parameters of the statement are very limited. They strayed outside them on three counts - a personal attack on the perpetrators, inference of guilt, and information unrelated (movement in the EU).

For somebody who earlier claimed to know a lot about victims, you don't seem to well advised as to whats permitted and what isn't.

Like I said, from what I've read of their statement I can't see any justification of calling them offensive xenophobes. The judges language is unsympathetic. He could've phrased his objections better or flagged these points and delivered sentence- I can't see a judge in appeal reducing a sentence that was obviously uninfluenced by a VIS which the judge criticised.

How is the statement xenophobic?

The_Minister · 03-12-2010 12:40PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

In fairness, that judge just wants love.

Right now, I'd say he is on a large heart shaped bed, with a few female court clerks naked, hanging on every single word he utters, with his deep authoritative, seductive voice.

He's on a mission to bring soul to our justice system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baZiXz1nFWY

curlzy · 03-12-2010 12:41PM

Nodin wrote: »

And yet more disengenous appeals to emotion. The parameters of the statement are very limited. They strayed outside them on three counts - a personal attack on the perpetrators, inference of guilt, and information unrelated (movement in the EU).

Will you ever cop on Nodin, there's nothing disengenuous in what he's saying. So he has feelings eh? What's disengenuous about having feelings and wanting other people to utilize theirs? What's wrong with compassion, sympathy etc??? You're going too far with your PC stuff.

Nodin · 03-12-2010 01:02PM

Laminations wrote: »

How is the statement xenophobic?

For the second time, I never said it was. It is, however, inappropriate.

Curlzy wrote:

So he has feelings eh? What's disengenuous about having feelings and wanting other people to utilize theirs? What's wrong with compassion, sympathy etc???

We're discussing matters of fact. Certain things are allowed in a statement and certain things not. In this case, certain things specifically prohibted were mentioned. Whether they should be or not is a seperate argument.

Curlzy wrote:

You're going too far with your PC stuff.

What "PC stuff" do you refer to....? A quote would be helpful.

Victim impact statement offensive...what did they expect?

Comments