Victim impact statement offensive...what did they expect?

bigpink

Said it was offensive what did they expect?
If they can shut down cases maybe dont do them until they have been charged instead of this farce
The judge also said he wasnt provided with a copy of it surely the court staff should have this done
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/judge-french-family-statement-offensive-and-inappropriate-483833.html

PrincessLola

Yeah lets all worry about the poor criminal's feelings, not the family of the victim :rolleyes:

FreudianSlippers

bigpink wrote: »

Said it was offensive what did they expect?
If they can shut down cases maybe dont do them until they have been charged instead of this farce
The judge also said he wasnt provided with a copy of it surely the court staff should have this done
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/judge-french-family-statement-offensive-and-inappropriate-483833.html

I think you're missing the point of victim impact statements.

TouchingVirus

Also missing the common courtesy to quote the article you're linking to.

RonMexico

I find our appalling justice system to be offensive.

mloc123

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Also missing the common courtesy to quote the article you're linking to.

Won't somebody please think of the people on a mobile device

strobe

bigpink wrote: »

Said it was offensive what did they expect?
If they can shut down cases maybe dont do them until they have been charged instead of this farce
The judge also said he wasnt provided with a copy of it surely the court staff should have this done
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/judge-french-family-statement-offensive-and-inappropriate-483833.html

They were charged, hence the court case. They were also convicted, hence the fact a victim impact statement was being read. The judge just deferred sentencing until a later date as he felt it would leave any sentence he gave wide open to appeal by the defense if he was to sentence in the immediacy of the VIS, due to it's unusual nature. He knows this legal business better than you or I, I reckon, they are to be sentenced in December.

For the non-clickers amongst us.

A judge has said the victim impact statement of the family of killed mother of two Rebecca French was "offensive and inappropriate".

Concerned that it may appear he was influenced by the report, Mr Justice Barry White has adjourned sentencing four men who admitted disposing of the 30-year-old's body which was found in the boot of a blazing car in Wexford in October 2009.

The four are Lithuanians Ricardas Dilys and Ruslanas Mineikas with an address at Goodtide Harbour, Patrick O’Connor of Ard na Dara, Clonard and Polish man Piotr Pasiak of Lower John Street.

Rebecca French’s family said in an emotive victim impact statement that those behind her death were "animals".

It continued: "People with criminal records in their own country should never be allowed to live among us."

Mr Justice Barry White was due to hand down sentences to the four men guilty of impeding her murder investigation this morning but held back because of the report which was read out in court yesterday.

He said there might be a perception that he had been influenced by the comments of the French family some of which he branded as xenophobic, and added that justice must be seen to be done.

He has put the case back until next month for the DPP to give an opinion on the victim impact report and whether Mr White should stand down as judge in the case.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

It's a victim impact statement. Stating political views has nothing to do with the impact a said criem had on the victims. Consequently, the victims come of as beign bigotted (eeven though, I accept, they may not be).

And before anyone asks how I'd react in that situation, exactly the same way if the perpetrators were Irish.

Dudess

Think the judge just wanted to ensure correct protocol was followed and without prejudice, not worry about the criminals' feelings.

Nodin

bigpink wrote: »

Said it was offensive what did they expect?
..........

Though I've no legal qualification, I'd say they were expecting something about the impact on the victims.

TouchingVirus

mloc123 wrote: »

Won't somebody please think of the people on a mobile device

I'm on a computer. I clicked the link and read the article. It's still a courtesy

mloc123

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I'm on a computer. I clicked the link and read the article. It's still a courtesy

I'm on a mobile device and don't want to cluck on it. Not having a go at you

FreudianSlippers

Here's the article for people on mobile device

A judge has said the victim impact statement of the family of killed mother of two Rebecca French was "offensive and inappropriate".

Concerned that it may appear he was influenced by the report, Mr Justice Barry White has adjourned sentencing four men who admitted disposing of the 30-year-old's body which was found in the boot of a blazing car in Wexford in October 2009.

The four are Lithuanians Ricardas Dilys and Ruslanas Mineikas with an address at Goodtide Harbour, Patrick O’Connor of Ard na Dara, Clonard and Polish man Piotr Pasiak of Lower John Street.

Rebecca French’s family said in an emotive victim impact statement that those behind her death were "animals".

It continued: "People with criminal records in their own country should never be allowed to live among us."

Mr Justice Barry White was due to hand down sentences to the four men guilty of impeding her murder investigation this morning but held back because of the report which was read out in court yesterday.

He said there might be a perception that he had been influenced by the comments of the French family some of which he branded as xenophobic, and added that justice must be seen to be done.

He has put the case back until next month for the DPP to give an opinion on the victim impact report and whether Mr White should stand down as judge in the case.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/judge-french-family-statement-offensive-and-inappropriate-483833.html#ixzz16n8TQYPj

Bosco boy

I think the mother of this victim is 100% right, the judical system has failed her and society and she has every right to be angry, alot more right to be angry than a judge who's ego is hurt cause he was critised, another group of people in irish society who need a root and branch reform!!

TouchingVirus

mloc123 wrote: »

I'm on a mobile device and don't want to cluck on it. Not having a go at you

Forgot my :pac:

FreudianSlippers

Bosco boy wrote: »

I think the mother of this victim is 100% right, the judical system has failed her and society and she has every right to be angry, alot more right to be angry than a judge who's ego is hurt cause he was critised, another group of people in irish society who need a root and branch reform!!

I don't think Mr Justice White was upset because his ego was hurt.

He merely thought it may be unfair to sentence in light of the statement - as in it would look like he was over-sentencing because of the statement.

In reality he saved the taxpayer money by doing this. If he sentenced on the day the Accused would have just appealed the sentence.

bigpink

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Also missing the common courtesy to quote the article you're linking to.

I linked to it whay ya you moaning about

goose2005

Bosco boy wrote: »

I think the mother of this victim is 100% right, the judical system has failed her and society and she has every right to be angry, alot more right to be angry than a judge who's ego is hurt cause he was critised, another group of people in irish society who need a root and branch reform!!

The point of a victim impact statement is so that the victim can tell about the impact the crime has had on her - not for the victim to air political views.

bigpink

What are victims suppose to say so in an impact statement?
Oh life is great and the guys that commited this crime are realy nice guys

Muff_Daddy

OisinT wrote: »

He merely thought it may be unfair to sentence in light of the statement - as in it would look like he was over-sentencing because of the statement.

For people who commit murder, there should be no such thing as 'over-sentencing'.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bigpink wrote: »

What are victims suppose to say so in an impact statement?
Oh life is great and the guys that commited this crime are realy nice guys

The are supposed to talk abotu the impact of the crime on the family - have you read any of the replies to your opening post??

bigpink

You should be allowed some free speech,it wasnt for political gain it was to point out flaws in allowing criminals into the country i dont see the problem with that

chicken fingers

Would help a lot if the actual full victim impact statement was included.
These online newspaper websites need to get in gear and have wikipedia style links to stuff like this.

TouchingVirus

bigpink wrote: »

I linked to it whay ya you moaning about

Look at the other news articles. Each one of them quoting the article, not only for people on mobiles who shouldn't have to use their bandwidth to visit the linked story, but as a common courtesy. It's not hard to quote a story

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

What are victims suppose to say so in an impact statement?
Oh life is great and the guys that commited this crime are realy nice guys

There was reference to xenophobic statements which is not kosher.

So good = This has greatly upset our family and those men are very bad men.

Bad = This has greatly upset our family and it's just like Lithuanians to do something like this.

bigpink

If they guys had previous records then that is a fact and no harm in saying so

Overheal

bigpink wrote: »

What are victims suppose to say so in an impact statement?
Oh life is great and the guys that commited this crime are realy nice guys

Something that isn't along the lines of "they're negros and they shouldn't be allowed to live among us in the first place."

I understand the political point the family is trying to make but the Victim's Impact Statement isn't the place to do that.

Ali Babba

It was offensive alright , to animals that is, animals wouldn't carry on the way the scum that killed that woman did.

OutlawPete

In fairness, that judge just wants love.

Right now, I'd say he is on a large heart shaped bed, with a few female court clerks naked, hanging on every single word he utters, with his deep authoritative, seductive voice.

He's on a mission to bring soul to our justice system.

bigpink

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Look at the other news articles. Each one of them quoting the article, not only for people on mobiles who shouldn't have to use their bandwidth to visit the linked story, but as a common courtesy. It's not hard to quote a story

I linked to it so relax will ya not my fault you cant see it

bigpink

Millicent wrote: »

There was reference to xenophobic statements which is not kosher.

So good = This has greatly upset our family and those men are very bad men.

Bad = This has greatly upset our family and it's just like Lithuanians to do something like this.

Xenophobic?
They were foreign yes?Committed crime yes?Do you think they should be in the country so?

God i love the way the people stick up for criminals in this country

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bigpink wrote: »

Xenophobic?
They were foreign yes?Committed crime yes?Do you think they should be in the country so?

God i love the way the people stick up for criminals in this country

Again, are you actually reading any of the replies? If so, please quote one responce in this thread where someone sticks up for the criminals.

Millicent

bigpink wrote: »

Xenophobic?
They were foreign yes?Committed crime yes?Do you think they should be in the country so?

God i love the way the people stick up for criminals in this country

What? Why are you attacking me? Do you understand what xenophobic means? I'm guessing you're probably at least familiar with the mentality from your response to me.

I was simply doing you a courtesy and outlining for you the problem with the impact statement. Who was sticking up for anyone?

Nodin

bigpink wrote: »

You should be allowed some free speech,it wasnt for political gain it was to point out flaws in allowing criminals into the country i dont see the problem with that

It's a Victim Impact Statement..........

FreudianSlippers

This is a much better article BTW:

RT&#201 wrote: »

The judge in the case of four men who pleaded guilty to impeding the investigation into the killing of Rebecca French last year has asked the DPP to consider whether he should recuse himself from the case.
Mr Justice Barry White has asked the Director of Public Prosecution to consider the victim impact statement from Ms French's sister, Rachel, in determining his decision.
Mr Justice White was due to sentence the four men in the case today in the Central Criminal Court.
Two of the men last month pleaded guilty to impeding the investigation into the killing of Rebecca French at Ard Na Dara, Clonard, Wexford.
Ricardas Dilys, 28, and Ruslanas Mineikas, 26, of Goodtide Harbour and formerly of Davitt Road South, both in Wexford town, were on trial for her murder when they made the pleas.
They had pleaded not guilty to her murder but the murder charges were dropped when a legal technicality meant their admissions in garda custody could not be used against them.
Two other men, 41-year-old Patrick O'Connor of Ard Na Dara, Clonard, Wexford, and 27-year-old Piotr Pasiak of Lower John Street in Wexford had already pleaded guilty to impeding the investigation in the same way.
Ms French's body was discovered by firefighters in the boot of her burning car at Cod's Lane on 9 October 2009.

Rachel French expressed anger with the justice system as no one was to be prosecuted for the killing.
This morning, Mr Justice White described that statement as offensive, inappropriate, and xenophobic.
He said he had no advance knowledge of the contents of the statement, a copy of which was handed to him as the evidence was being presented.
He said it lacked an appreciation of the presumption of innocence, an appreciation of the concept of joint enterprise and an appreciation of the judicial function.
Mr Justice White said he was not sure if the criticisms were directed at him, the DPP, or the Minister for Justice.
But he said if he was to sentence the men today justice might not be seen to have been done and it could seem that he was influenced.
He said he appreciated the feelings of the French family but 'we are an ordered and lawful society'.
The judge said this was clearly a case involving a substantial custodial sentence but he said if there were an appeal on the severity of sentencing the material in the victim impact statement would be before the Court of Appeal.
He also said he wanted the DPP to consider whether the original victim impact statement should be redacted and an appropriate report presented before a different judge.
Mr Justice White also said he wanted the DPP advised that he would not accept victim impact statements presented to him 'on the hoof' at the same time as they were being presented in court.
He said he appreciated the matter of sentencing should not be unduly delayed and said the case should come back before him on 10 December.

Millicent

OisinT wrote: »

This is a much better article BTW:

Okay, judging from that, it would appear that the judge doesn't know what "xenophobic" means either.

Nodin

...it would help if the full text of the statement was available....

Bosco boy

I think the real issue here is a decision by the judge to exclude statements made by the accused which were vital to the prosecution case. legislation intoduced around the time of the killing was confusing to say the least and statements taken vital to the case were excluded after a number of days of legal arguement, I think that is part of the reason the family spoke out today! I might be wrong.

FreudianSlippers

I have colleagues who were there and 100% of them said that the statement was xenophobic. I didn't hear it so I can't say, but without the full statement we only have the Judge's opinion.

I can say that Mr Justice Barry White is a very fair judge and a very good man who makes clear and appropriate decisions.

ilovelamp2000

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some restrictions on freedom of movement so that foreign criminals can't enter the country and settle here. Most sane countries have something in place to deal with these situations.

To import crime is senseless, considering we've got enough of it already.

FoxT

I am surprised that the people who wrote the Impact statement were not advised on what they could & could not write.

I thought that the V.I.S. is supposed to be limited to a description by the victim(s) on the impact the crime had on them. It is not ( & should not be) a platform for the victim to express their personal views on immigrants, the justice system, or whatnot.

How were they permitted to bring that statement before the judge? It clearly was not in their best interest to do so, yet somebody, somewhere must have authorised it? Or did they just walk in & plonk it on the bench?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some restrictions on freedom of movement so that foreign criminals can't enter the country and settle here. Most sane countries have something in place to deal with these situations.

To import crime is senseless, considering we've got enough of it already.

Currently being discussed here

Fratton Fred

ilovelamp2000 wrote: »

I don't think it would be a bad idea to have some restrictions on freedom of movement so that foreign criminals can't enter the country and settle here. Most sane countries have something in place to deal with these situations.

To import crime is senseless, considering we've got enough of it already.

I Think that may be contrary to the EU's freedom of movement directive though, which is one of the most core principles of the EU.

To look at it another way, at least we get to export a few criminals as well.

Dudess

bigpink wrote: »

What are victims suppose to say so in an impact statement?
Oh life is great and the guys that commited this crime are realy nice guys

Oh that chestnut - pretend there's no other alternative.

ilovelamp2000

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I Think that may be contrary to the EU's freedom of movement directive though, which is one of the most core principles of the EU.

To look at it another way, at least we get to export a few criminals as well.

None of the rights are absolute. Having a restriction on it based on previous criminal history seems sensible.

One of the duties of the Irish State is to protect its citizens, by allowing dangerous criminals to freely enter the state they aren't doing that.

PrincessLola

goose2005 wrote: »

The point of a victim impact statement is so that the victim can tell about the impact the crime has had on her - not for the victim to air political views.

Fair enough. Maybe I wonder if the family had anyone advise them on the impact statement?

Gummy Panda

I thought the Victim Impact Statement has to be screened before being read in court after the Holohan case where the mother read out allegations of sexual abuse that weren't included in the case?

Predalien

Justice Barry White seems to have a negative opinion of victim impact statements in general, I can't remember the case but I do recall he once described a victim impact statement in a murder case as 'disingenuous'. That's very harsh on any family of a murder victim. He really should just accept they are a part of our legal system. Also in delaying sentencing isn't he admitting that he isn't able to distinguish between what he can take into account and what he should disregard (the xenophobic elements of the statement for example).

Predalien

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I thought the Victim Impact Statement has to be screened before being read in court after the Holohan case where the mother read out allegations of sexual abuse that weren't included in the case?

They are screened but there's nothing to stop people deviating from the script as I believe Majella Holohan did.

OutlawPete

Guess those criminals were fun loving ones as they were heard singing on the way back to their cells:

"Barry White, saved our lives".

Terry

Overheal wrote: »

Something that isn't along the lines of "they're negros and they shouldn't be allowed to live among us in the first place."

I understand the political point the family is trying to make but the Victim's Impact Statement isn't the place to do that.

+1, but I do have certain issues with that which I'll cover later.

bigpink wrote: »

Xenophobic?
They were foreign yes?Committed crime yes?Do you think they should be in the country so?

God i love the way the people stick up for criminals in this country

I agree to a certain extent. Again I'll cover that later.

FoxT wrote: »

I am surprised that the people who wrote the Impact statement were not advised on what they could & could not write.

This is 100% correct.
The Garda taking the statement should have advised them on how to proceed.

In saying that, if a family member of yours was murdered by foreigners, how would you react?
We're talking about days after the guilty party have been identified, and not a couple of years after the fact when you have had time to calm down.

If the person who killed my father was found in the morning and he turned out to be foreign (EU or not), I'd question why he was allowed into this country in the first place. I'd ask questions about his past, and wonder if he had a criminal history.

There is absolutely no reason why we shouldn't have the same restrictions on repeat criminals as the U.S. Canada and Australia have.
Repeat Irish offender? Then you don't have access to the above countries. Why should we be any different when it comes to allowing people in?

On top of that, any foreigner here who repeatedly offends should be deported. If the initial offence is something like murder or manslaughter, then they should be deported as soon as they have served their sentence here.

The hippy liberals here piss me off as much as the right wing lunatics. Neither side can ever see logic.
You have the liberals whining about the Irish immigrants in the U.S. not being deported when the right are calling for mass deportation here.
Then you have the right whining about how the left want to support all the immigrants who are criminals.

There's a middle ground.
Deport illegal immigrants. All of them.
If you break the law, then face the punishment. It's that ****ing simple.

Three foreign people have been accused of killing someone.
If they are guilty, then they should face their punishment and then be deported.
If they are innocent, then they can walk free with their heads held high.