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Breaking news: 'Sinn Féin may take Govt to court over bailout deal'

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Comments

  • #32
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    sensibleken wrote: »
    There was an article in the times today with Pat Rabbitte saying they were breaching the constitution, which seems fairly clear cut, and will consider brining a challenge once he receives clarrification from the government

    Looks like it's a case of Sinn Fein getting In Before The Pat Rabbitte then. :D


  • #33
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Looks like it's a case of Sinn Fein getting In Before The Pat Rabbitte then. :D

    Are you saying that he's living on burrowed time?


  • #34
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Millicent wrote: »
    Considering that they just successfully fought against the government's refusal to hold a by-election in Donegal, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

    +1.. I'd say SF are a lot less likely to just huff & puff than the other main parties are. I don't agree with pretty much any of their policies but some of the posts in this thread just show the idiocy of people.. those who would rather allow things to stagnate and become impossible to change than they would to show agreement with someone regardless of how much sense it makes.. simply because of who they are


  • #35
    problemchimp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭problemchimp


    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    Sinn Fein can say what they want because they know they'll never have to follow up on it.
    Well they followed up on forcing a by election in Donegal, Kenny and co just shouted from the sidelines pretending they want to be in power. Like it or not the Shinners are here to stay and they have a decent % for a small party. Oh and before you start about terroists, lets not forget FF gun running or sinn fein the workers party slipping quietly into the Labour party.


  • #36
    Gunsfortoys
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭Gunsfortoys


    Can someone give me a RATIONAL explanation as to why they are against this?

    I am no advocate of Sinn Fein but they seem to be the only party to contest anything in the political system today.

    I have heard NOTHING from the other partys in relation to the bailout, just empty rhetoric and nonsense.


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  • #37
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Millicent wrote: »
    Considering that they just successfully fought against the government's refusal to hold a by-election in Donegal, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

    They had a basis and reasoning for that challenge.

    Can't see how they have that here.


  • #38
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Well, who else will galvanize the pro-paedophile vote?


    I think that's a bit unfair on Gerry tbh.

    I'm not a shinner but fair play to Sinn Fein for at least openly saying that they would challenge the deal, maybe other political parties will take note and follow suit.

    Even Dermot Ahern came out and said that the ECB had forced the government into accepting the bailout.


  • #39
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    problemchimp wrote: »
    ...and before you start about terroists, lets not forget FF gun running or sinn fein the workers party slipping quietly into the Labour party.

    True. Let's not.


  • #40
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    They had a basis and reasoning for that challenge.

    Can't see how they have that here.

    As Dionysus pointed out, it could be challenged on the basis of undermining the constitution, so they possibly do have a basis. As for reasoning, I'd say the reasoning would be self-evident, no?


  • #41
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Gunsfortoys wrote: »
    Can someone give me a RATIONAL explanation as to why they are against this?

    Because there are an awful lot of Irish people who, when they hear the words "Sinn Fein are suggesting..." they don't wait to hear the end of the sentence, they have already made their minds up to oppose it.


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  • #42
    phill106
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,838 ✭✭✭phill106


    Dionysus wrote: »
    If the government does not have a vote in the Dáil it would seem that Sinn Féin could be on strong grounds under Article 29 Section 5 & 6 of Bunreacht na hÉireann?

    5. 1° Every international agreement to which the State becomes a party shall be laid before Dáil Éireann.

    2° The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann.

    3° This section shall not apply to agreements or conventions of a technical and adminstrative character.

    6. No international agreement shall be part of the domestic law of the State save as may be determined by the Oireachtas.

    Here

    Other than that, I'm not sure what the constitutional basis of their opposition is.
    The government/imf/europe would have to do some fast talking to say that the bailout is not an international agreement.


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 45,738 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fair play to them

    I hope they follow through with it and win.

    Some people would rather see us get screwed over by Europe and have to pay for the wrong doings of this inept government for the next 50 years.

    The same fools will probably vote FF next election.


  • #44
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    phill106 wrote: »
    The government/imf/europe would have to do some fast talking to say that the bailout is not an international agreement.

    Neither the IMF nor the ECB/ European Fund are nations.


  • #45
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    TheZohan wrote: »
    I think that's a bit unfair on Gerry tbh

    Context, dear Zohan, context.

    Alarmingly, it's who you keep out, not who you vote in, that decides the future in this island.


  • #46
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Millicent wrote: »
    As Dionysus pointed out, it could be challenged on the basis of undermining the constitution, so they possibly do have a basis. As for reasoning, I'd say the reasoning would be self-evident, no?

    The bailout doesn't fail under the remit of that section of the constitution. I really can't see how this can be challenged on constitutional grounds.


  • #47
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    Because there are an awful lot of Irish people who, when they hear the words "Sinn Fein are suggesting..." they don't wait to hear the end of the sentence, they have already made their minds up to oppose it.

    Exactly. I'm in no way a Shinner but they are looking better and better these days. At least they are trying to come up with solutions and I find it amazing how many people dismiss it as showboating.

    Whatever people think of Sinn Fein, they are a democratically elected party. People's instant reaction to whatever Sinn Fein says without even considering whether there is a grain of sense in it saddens me. It's the same sort of attitude that meant there wasn't much uproar when they weren't invited to the all-party budget talks. I can't imagine people standing for that sort of treatment if it was aimed at Fine Gael or Labour.


  • #48
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    The bailout doesn't fail under the remit of that section of the constitution. I really can't see how this can be challenged on constitutional grounds.

    Depends on your interpretation, I'd wager. Be interesting to see if they have a case.


  • #49
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    The bailout doesn't fail under the remit of that section of the constitution. I really can't see how this can be challenged on constitutional grounds.

    That's the whole point in challenging it.. if it was clear cut either way then there would be no question. Look at all the spiel coming from Rabitte about the deal and yet he continues to sit on his hands and do nothing about it.

    The 'government' that have agreed to sell us down the river are not the ones that will have to deal with the problems when we hit the rapids over the next few years. The opposition parties should have some say in this as they are the ones who will need to make it work in the long run


  • #50
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    My name is URL wrote: »
    That's the whole point in challenging it.. if it was clear cut either way then there would be no question.

    That's exactly what I'm saying though. It is clear cut and there is no question afaics.

    It's not in breach of the articles Dionysus posted.


  • #51
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    That's exactly what I'm saying though. It is clear cut and there is no question afaics.

    It's not in breach of the articles Dionysus posted.

    The British, Danish and Swedish loans are all bilateral agreements afaik, and made up part of the bailout plan, so maybe it could be challenged on that point?


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  • #52
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    My name is URL wrote: »
    The British, Danish and Swedish loans are all bilateral agreements afaik, and made up part of the bailout plan, so maybe it could be challenged on that point?

    It's based through the EFSF fund and the IMF though.


  • #53
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    It's based through the EFSF fund and the IMF though.

    There's a breakdown of the deal here - http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-28/irish-emergency-loan-details-published-by-eu-ministers-text-of-statement.html

    I've no idea how the ESFS works but surely the fact that the 3 bilateral loans are separately included in that part of it should have some bearing on the constitutionality of it?


  • #54
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Can't see how it would tbh.


  • #55
    phill106
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,838 ✭✭✭phill106


    prinz wrote: »
    Neither the IMF nor the ECB/ European Fund are nations.

    Ireland however is.


  • #56
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Yet again Sinn Fein are the only ones to stand up to this disgrace of a government.

    Until they actually do something, it's just empy words.
    Whatever people think of Sinn Fein, they are a democratically elected party. People's instant reaction to whatever Sinn Fein says without even considering whether there is a grain of sense in it saddens me. It's the same sort of attitude that meant there wasn't much uproar when they weren't invited to the all-party budget talks. I can't imagine people standing for that sort of treatment if it was aimed at Fine Gael or Labour.

    When Sinn Fein come up with good, workable economic policies then people will start to take them seriously.

    What is Sinn Feins answer to the current economic crisis?

    How would they get us out of this mess?

    How do they intend to create employment?

    I've read their policy documents on their website and it's full of blanket statements with little in the way of being innovative.

    No concept of developing entrepreneurship or what it entails. Statements such as we need coordinated training infrastructure for the unemployed (duh) and investment in broadband (nothing new there.)


  • #57
    Millicent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    Until they actually do something, it's just empy words.



    When Sinn Fein come up with good, workable economic policies then people will start to take them seriously.

    What is Sinn Feins answer to the current economic crisis?

    How would they get us out of this mess?

    How do they intend to create employment?

    I've read their policy documents on their website and it's full of blanket statements with little in the way of being innovative.

    No concept of developing entrepreneurship or what it entails. Statements such as we need coordinated training infrastructure for the unemployed (duh) and investment in broadband (nothing new there.)

    You could level the same criticisms at any current party, in fairness. I'm not a Sinn Feiner, but their views on social change and their budgetary submission seemed to be, afaics, reasoned and measured.


  • #58
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    When Sinn Fein come up with good, workable economic policies then people will start to take them seriously.

    Do you have the same attitude with Fianna Fail, who have proved that their economic policies over the last 10+ years to have been neither good nor workable, and by association the main opposition parties, judging by their election promises and lack of opposition to the most harmful aspects of the Fianna Fail economic policies over the same period would have done much differently?

    There seems to be the attitude that SF are economic minnows compared to the other political parties, when in actual fact virtually ALL Irish politicians were and are economically retarded judging by their lack of appreciation of just how dangerous the Celtic Tiger actually was.


  • #59
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    So what is their great plan then? Come February when the country has run out of money, how do they propose to pay the teachers, nurses, firemen, garde etc?


  • #60
    yizorselves
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 353 ✭✭yizorselves


    Its good to see Sinn Féin gaining popularity.


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  • #61
    Sticky_Fingers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    So what is their great plan then? Come February when the country has run out of money, how do they propose to pay the teachers, nurses, firemen, garde etc?
    Congratulations on graduating from the FF school of its our only option. Perhaps while your busy chearleading the kicking of this can of debt down the road you can explain why we cannot tell the ECB/IMF that the deal is rotten and we want to renegotiate. This thing stinks of a rushed bodge job all to shore up the creaky economies of the rest of the PIIGS and to save the precious Euro.

    It seems that the technocrats in Brussels are more in love with their institutions and rules then the lowly plebs that the structures were supposedly set up to serve in the first place. We're been sold down the river on this deal and we are probably going to default anyway so if its a choice of now or 3 years down the road when we are even further in the hole, I plum for now.

    You want solutions, I don't have any, you want alternative plans to get us out of this mess, again I don't have any but I do know a crappy deal when I see one and this "solution" thats been foisted upon us by the government is IMO the worst possible course of action we can take. We were told that the bank bailout was a necessary evil back in 08 and here we are again been resold the same mouldy **** sandwich just because the powers that be cannot bear to accept that the fundamental system is deeply flawed and may need to be tore down.


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