Too much of Gaeilge?

Mike 1972 · 20-11-2010 12:00AM

Potatofarl wrote: »

You have a hot air balloon?? :eek:

Do try to stay on topic

Krusader · 20-11-2010 12:11AM

Wibbs wrote: »

That's the issue I'm referencing alright. My concern is this, Irish did die back to smaller and smaller enclaves in the face of English and where it was spoken it was the simple language of the folk lifestyle of those who spoke it. It hadn't been the language of philosophy and learning like it was in the middle ages. When it was a very rich and different beast. Then the dialects were mixed together into one, "New Irish", it was homogenised for educational purposes as much as anything else. So now we have the Gaelscoils and that's good, but then what? Very few second level and no third level, so again the danger is that the children learning today will speak to each other as adults with a pidgin Irish more allied with 9 years olds than adults, relying on English when sophisticated subjects are broached. Imagine if English had died back and you were trying to build a full, educated and sophisticated language from fishermen in Cleethorpes and ten year olds. Unlikely to get Yeats or Beckett outa that mix. TBH I'd have tried to revive middle Irish.

Wow!!, so lowly old fishermen are unable to have an educated and sophisticated debate in their own tongue, very judgemental of you.

Debates and current affairs are done through Irish on a daily basis in the media is that not sophisticated enough for you

Potatofarl · 20-11-2010 12:16AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Do try to stay on topic

You brought up the hot air balloon.

Novella wrote: »

"Life-saving signs" are usually pretty stupid, like "Don't walk to the edge of this cliff 'cause there is a danger you'll slip and fall". If you need a bloody sign to tell you what could kill you or what's dangerous, maybe you shouldn't be allowed out of a padded room.

Not a bad point...in fairness whether the sign at the train station not to cross the line is in english or as gaeilge it makes no difference, you'd be pretty stupid to go hanging out on the edge of the platform anyway.

OP, I've never considered that signs as Gaeilge would be an issue because I can speak Irish, and read Irish (hopefully won't get hit by a train so). Instead of taking the side that there is too much Irish and trying to reduce its use because people don't understand it, shouldn't we be thinking more along the lines of trying to increase the number who do understand it??

Krusader · 20-11-2010 12:18AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Remember seeing (monolingual) "Paisti ag Imirt"* signs on a road in Dundalk.

Distance from Dundalk to nearest international land border < 10Km
Distance from Dundalk to nearest Gaeltacht area of any significance > 100 Km

* apparently it means "children at play"

Aren't all road signs of an international/european standard, so i'm sure there would of been a picture of 2 kids on the sign also. If you drove you should be aware of what the sign means
In a safety audit you would get more marks up for the picture than the writing or language it's in.

Mike 1972 · 20-11-2010 12:24AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Aren't all road signs of an international/european standard, so i'm sure there would of been a picture of 2 kids on the sign also.

There was (is ?) no picture. I agree road signs should be of an international/european standard but this isint the case. Try driving around Dundalk and then pop up to Newry and youll see.

Krusader · 20-11-2010 12:45AM

Don't forget Speak Irish on Facebook Day tomorrow :cool::D

Mike 1972 · 20-11-2010 12:50AM

I already had enough reasons not to be on facebook but thanks all the same.

nisior · 20-11-2010 12:54AM

Some of you really shock me. How could you want to let our language die? People sacrificed their lives so that we could have our language. And for every sign in Gaeilge I'm sure there are at least 3 in English.

Mike 1972 · 20-11-2010 01:00AM

nisior wrote: »

People sacrificed their lives so that .....

People "sacrifice their (and others) lives" for all manner of things good bad or indifferent but it doesnt really add to or subtract from the intrinsic merits of that which they "sacrificed their lives" for.

Plenty of lives were ruined through leaving school without qualifications because they had failed an Irish exam too.

nisior · 20-11-2010 01:09AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

People "sacrifice their (and others) lives" for all manner of things good bad or indifferent but it doesnt really add to or subtract from the intrinsic merits of that which they "sacrificed their lives" for.

Plenty of lives were ruined through leaving school without qualifications because they had failed an Irish exam too.

Well that's the huge problem, the people who teach the students have no idea what they're going on about so then it's impossible for the students to learn the language and then they go on to become Irish teachers themselves. We've lost so much of our identity, is it really so bad that I hope that my children and my grandchildren could have a language that is Irish and not some other country's language?

Krusader · 20-11-2010 01:09AM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

People "sacrifice their (and others) lives" for all manner of things good bad or indifferent but it doesnt really add to or subtract from the intrinsic merits of that which they "sacrificed their lives" for.

Plenty of lives were ruined through leaving school without qualifications because they had failed an Irish exam too.

And let's blame the Irish language for that :rolleyes:, it would be too difficult to blame the Dept. of Education, who have failed the majority of the population in regards to the teaching of Irish

Wibbs · 20-11-2010 01:12AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Wow!!, so lowly old fishermen are unable to have an educated and sophisticated debate in their own tongue, very judgemental of you.

Of course some can(though it does depend on ones definition of sophisticated, regardless of the group referenced). That's not the point. The point is the general environment that a language exists in. The latin of the plebeian was on average less sophisticated, more mundane than that of the patrician, again on average. A language needs both.

Debates and current affairs are done through Irish on a daily basis in the media is that not sophisticated enough for you

It depends on the quality of said debate. How broad is the vocabulary and the concepts involved?

Wibbs · 20-11-2010 01:14AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

And let's blame the Irish language for that :rolleyes:, it would be too difficult to blame the Dept. of Education, who have failed the majority of the population in regards to the teaching of Irish

It would be far easier to blame the people themselves for not actually caring beyond lip service. Our schooling in the English language is hardly exemplary yet we produce world leading writers in that language on a yearly basis and have been doing so for many a century.

Mike 1972 · 20-11-2010 01:15AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

And let's blame the Irish language for that

Where did I (or anyone else here tonight) blame the Irish language (or any other language) for anything ?

nisior wrote: »

is it really so bad that I hope that my children and my grandchildren could have a language that is Irish and not some other country's language?

If they have the inclination and try hard enough I dont see whats going to stop them.

Krusader · 20-11-2010 01:29AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Of course some can(though it does depend on ones definition of sophisticated, regardless of the group referenced). That's not the point. The point is the general environment that a language exists in. The latin of the plebeian was on average less sophisticated, more mundane than that of the patrician, again on average. A language needs both.

Irish has both

Wibbs wrote: »

It depends on the quality of said debate. How broad is the vocabulary and the concepts involved?

Its as broad as any other languge, irish and english are different in their approach.

English is a verbal language, Irish is a prepositional language for the most part respectively,
You can put a different preposition with a verb in Irish and it can mean something totally different
I'll give you an example

in English we say - to tolerate
in Irish we say - a chur suas le (to put up with)
use a different preposition
to describe - a chur síos ar (to put down on)

johngalway · 20-11-2010 01:36AM

Shame is in the news this week. With Pet Rabbit accusing Pat "The Brain" Carey of not having any, *yawn* we know that already Pet.

Shame is also a thing felt when a foreigner can speak more Gaeilge than an Irish person.

Krusader · 20-11-2010 01:46AM

johngalway wrote: »

Shame is in the news this week. With Pet Rabbit accusing Pat "The Brain" Carey of not having any, *yawn* we know that already Pet.

Shame is also a thing felt when a foreigner can speak more Gaeilge than an Irish person.

There are a good few of them aswell

Wibbs · 20-11-2010 01:47AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Irish has both

Its as broad as any other languge, irish and english are different in their approach.

English is a verbal language, Irish is a prepositional language for the most part respectively,
You can put a different preposition with a verb in Irish and it can mean something totally different
I'll give you an example

in English we say - to tolerate
in Irish we say - a chur suas le (to put up with)
use a different preposition
to describe - a chur síos ar (to put down on)

Is that not a postpositional language?

Oh I do get your point, but that doesn't negate mine that too often what passes for fluency is not even close to that in real terms.

johngalway · 20-11-2010 01:50AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

There are a good few of them aswell

There are indeed. I only went as far as Junior Cert but surpised myself with an A as Gaeilge. Now mostly forgotten! We have something unique and I really dislike all the bashing it get's. *Bites tongue*

nisior · 20-11-2010 01:58AM

johngalway wrote: »

There are indeed. I only went as far as Junior Cert but surpised myself with an A as Gaeilge. Now mostly forgotten! We have something unique and I really dislike all the bashing it get's. *Bites tongue*

As do I. I met a woman last week whose house I was viewing because I'm moving into Galway soon. I told her Irish was my first language and she said 'Oh well done, your English is phenomenal'. Some people think that Irish speakers are some backward people who live in a bubble. I grew up in the 90s and I watched the same TV as everyone else in this country, I read the same books, I listened to the same radio but still people think I have no idea. I got an A1 in my French for my LC last year but I can't remember a phrase now so I can understand how quickly people forget a language when they don't use it everyday. I don't want to pick on people for not speaking it but I wish people would just respect it and not treat people who use it everyday as though they are stupid.

johngalway · 20-11-2010 02:03AM

nisior wrote: »

As do I. I met a woman last week whose house I was viewing because I'm moving into Galway soon. I told her Irish was my first language and she said 'Oh well done, your English is phenomenal'. Some people think that Irish speakers are some backward people who live in a bubble. I grew up in the 90s and I watched the same TV as everyone else in this country, I read the same books, I listened to the same radio but still people think I have no idea. I got an A1 in my French for my LC last year but I can't remember a phrase now so I can understand how quickly people forget a language when they don't use it everyday. I don't want to pick on people for not speaking it but I wish people would just respect it and not treat people who use it everyday as though they are stupid.

Exactly!

The way I was taught in school was píss poor until we read a book, english title muder on the dart. Jesus then everyone was riveted to Irish class and even read ahead! Secret is in teaching it in an interesting way and not droning, drilling and bateing it into people.

nisior · 20-11-2010 02:09AM

johngalway wrote: »

Exactly!

The way I was taught in school was píss poor until we read a book, english title muder on the dart. Jesus then everyone was riveted to Irish class and even read ahead! Secret is in teaching it in an interesting way and not droning, drilling and bateing it into people.

Yes exactly, teachers tend to focus on the grammar instead of teaching how to have a basic conversation. I had a French teacher for 3rd year and all she did was grammar and I ended up hating French up until 5th year until we got a better teacher who, instead of focusing on the grammar, taught us how to communicate in French. Once you have an understanding of how to speak to someone in a language the whole thing will become alot more simple, you'll be more interested in the stories/plays/poetry. I don't really know if my point is coming across though because I am slightly sleep deprived right now

Krusader · 20-11-2010 02:10AM

johngalway wrote: »

Exactly!

The way I was taught in school was píss poor until we read a book, english title muder on the dart. Jesus then everyone was riveted to Irish class and even read ahead! Secret is in teaching it in an interesting way and not droning, drilling and bateing it into people.

Dúnmharú ar an Dart, have read it myself, good book for learners

Sardonicat · 20-11-2010 02:13AM

nisior wrote: »

Yes exactly, teachers tend to focus on the grammar instead of teaching how to have a basic conversation. I had a French teacher for 3rd year and all she did was grammar and I ended up hating French up until 5th year until we got a better teacher who, instead of focusing on the grammar, taught us how to communicate in French. Once you have an understanding of how to speak to someone in a language the whole thing will become alot more simple, you'll be more interested in the stories/plays/poetry. I don't really know if my point is coming across though because I am slightly sleep deprived right now

All I had to look forward to reading was Peig (shiver)

nisior · 20-11-2010 02:15AM

Sardonicat wrote: »

All I had to look forward to reading was Peig (shiver)

Even I hated that!!! They really need to have some more modern material to engage teenagers with. They aren't doing the language any favours forcing people my age to study Peig!!

johngalway · 20-11-2010 02:17AM

See, this is the crux of the issue. They taught Peig when they should have been teaching Dúnmharú ar an Dart!

I'm in my thirties and I remember that book! Teenagers are mischievous twats, appeal to that side of them and you'll capture their imagination!

Shame on me for forgetting my national language!

People say it's of no value

Well will someone explain to me why the fúck foreigners learn it then? People can't see the wood for the trees. Visualise that for a second. We're pissing on our own language when people from other countries complain they can't find an Irish person in the Services industry to talk to !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF we had more pride in our own culture, instead of bending over to a globalized culture we'd be making money hand over fist!

Ireland of the thousand welcomes.

Sardonicat · 20-11-2010 02:18AM

nisior wrote: »

Even I hated that!!! They really need to have some more modern material to engage teenagers with. They aren't doing the language any favours forcing people my age to study Peig!!

I wouldn't read it at my age, and I did my LC 20 years ago.

nisior · 20-11-2010 02:19AM

johngalway wrote: »

See, this is the crux of the issue. They taught Peig when they should have been teaching Dúnmharú ar an Dart!

I'm in my thirties and I remember that book! Teenagers are mischievous twats, appeal to that side of them and you'll capture their imagination!

Shame on me for forgetting my national language!

Lads in my class literally set Peig on fire they were that bored with it in my Irish class!!

Krusader · 20-11-2010 02:20AM

Sardonicat wrote: »

All I had to look forward to reading was Peig (shiver)

Ah! Peig bhocht, an créatúr,

I've never read Peig, dying to see what the fuss is about

Sardonicat · 20-11-2010 02:24AM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Ah! Peig bhocht, an créatúr,
I've never read Peig, dying to see what the fuss is about

That!

Too much of Gaeilge?

Comments