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Too much of Gaeilge?

24

Comments

  • #32
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    Learning Irish doesn't stop people form learning other languages. In fact being exposed to other languages at an early age increase your ability to learn other languages later in life. .
    If one doesnt get hit by a train in the meantime
    Euro_Kraut wrote: »
    Gaelscoil students should have a particular advantage learning other European languages later in life having under gone immersion learning. Here in Switzerland huge money is being spent in promoting immersion learning. We are fortunate in Ireland that the infrastructure already exists. In anything we need to exploit it more.

    Im sorry this is total bull$h1t (didnt they used to make the same argument for Latin)

    "learning Irish early in life might make it easier for one to speak German later in life"

    Id imagine learning German early in life would work far better.


  • #33
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    "Life-saving signs" are usually pretty stupid, like "Don't walk to the edge of this cliff 'cause there is a danger you'll slip and fall". If you need a bloody sign to tell you what could kill you or what's dangerous, maybe you shouldn't be allowed out of a padded room.


  • #34
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Remember seeing (monolingual) "Paisti ag Imirt"* signs on a road in Dundalk.

    Distance from Dundalk to nearest international land border < 10Km
    Distance from Dundalk to nearest Gaeltacht area of any significance > 100 Km

    * apparently it means "children at play"


  • #35
    enda1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,165 ✭✭✭enda1


    ottostreet wrote: »
    taught better. I did German & Irish in secondary school, and I've learned more cantonese from my girlfriend over a couple of hours than I did in 6 years in school.

    So you're saying we should ride our teachers then...

    I see no problem with this plan and wholeheartedly endorse it!


  • #36
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    enda1 wrote: »
    So you're saying we should ride our teachers then...

    I see no problem with this plan and wholeheartedly endorse it!

    I'm less keen on the idea as most of my Irish teachers were aul fellas with beards.


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  • #37
    Corsendonk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,870 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    What if the IMF says we can't afford two languages?


  • #38
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    What if the IMF says we can't afford two languages?

    Probably use an Anglo-Saxon expletive and tell them to fuck off.


  • #39
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    I've said it in another similar thread and I'll say it again here:

    I'm from the west of Ireland (about 40km west of Galway) and I speak Irish with family and friends on a daily basis. It's the language I grew up with and it shaped how I see the world. I also promote and encourage its use.

    I get annoyed when I hear those jibes about it being on life-support. First of all it's incorrect and you could only believe that it was on its last legs if you weren't getting out enough. Sure, you'll never hear it spoken if you're from some farm in the back-arse of Offally or from some shtty housing estate in Finglas, but out west, it's still the language of commerse and society. Not only that, those from the galltacht(the English area outside the gaeltacht) who can afford it are sending their kids in increasing numbers to Irish-speaking schools. Whether or not this is due to the parents wanting their children to have Irish as a language or due to a desire to avoid having little Fiachra share a class with Pawel and Muhamed is irrelevant. The number of Irish speackers is growing.


    All that said, I don't think that so much should be spent translating documents that nobody can read. I've done translation work before and I know that less than 5% of all Irish speakers would understand your average Irish-language legal document. English ones are hard enough. Whenever I see any signs in Irish at bus or train stations, the translations are usually misspelt and I know that it's the English one that I'll read. I think it's an awful waste of money and should be stopped. I still think that place name signs should be in Irish because the place names make no sense in English.

    In all, I do agree that there is a lot of waste going on with regards to translation services but it's certainly not a dead language. One would need to be ignorant, retarded, provincial, deaf, deluded or some combination of the five to think so.


  • #40
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Remember seeing (monolingual) "Paisti ag Imirt"* signs on a road in Dundalk.

    Distance from Dundalk to nearest international land border < 10Km
    Distance from Dundalk to nearest Gaeltacht area of any significance > 100 Km

    * apparently it means "children at play"


    Signs like this are stupid. It makes no sense to put them up there in Irish.


  • #41
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    What if the IMF says we can't afford two languages?


    It's free to speak it. In fact, they even give you money for speaking it. Actually that could solve our economic problems.;)






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  • #42
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,372 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Well i saw some Poles hopping across the barriers on a railway crossing the otherday. Perhaps if they understood what the Irish for "Red lights means stop" they would not have taken such foolish actions.

    Apparently the swans on the other side can't understand the signs either.


  • #43
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,720 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    Anyone seeing a correlation here between those too intellectually challenged to learn Irish and those who need a sign to tell them not to walk onto the path of a speeding train??

    *ducks*


  • #44
    InTheTrees
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    What if the IMF says we can't afford two languages?

    :D

    My first chuckle of the day.


  • #45
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    dory wrote: »
    Anyone seeing a correlation here between those too intellectually challenged to learn Irish and those who need a sign to tell them not to walk onto the path of a speeding train??

    Hopefully that means that the likes of Myers will walk into the path of said train. :cool:


  • #46
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Dudess wrote: »
    You're being disingenuous. I'm all for keeping Irish alive, but it's not our first language.
    Our constitution says otherwise. And like the bible, the constitution never lies!


  • #47
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    200,000 speakers or so and rising
    I love how this stat keeps rising and rising but with little actual proof of the reality. Just because I can order a beer in French does not a French speaker make me. Ditto for the majority of so called Irish speakers. Even the most pro Irish stats show anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 actually speak it fluently.

    A good post on the matter from this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055958148
    Enkidu wrote: »
    Fair enough, but it still isn't great. Eight hundred sat through Irish, but only around three hundred and eighty four (roughly) had any benefit confered on them. If the students were equal confortable with both languages then they should have gotten the five extra bonus point. Now possibly the situation is better than this, because of uniform reduction of marks, but:

    Total number of students who, at Leaving Cert Level, have studied Irish for thirteen years: 45,984
    Numbers with good enough Irish to do papers in Irish: 384

    Ratio: 120:1

    That is roughly the success rate of the educational system.

    Also consider that the 10% bonus is for: History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Physics and Chemistry, Biology, Science and Business. Only forty people were capable of doing these through Irish well enough.
    400 out of 46,000 and only 40 for the more "intellectual" subjects.
    Read them stats and tell me anything close to 200,000 can speak, read and write Irish fluently to anything like the definition of that term. Its not because Irish speakers are intellectually slow, so the main reason seems to be a helluva lot less people actually speak it, beyond a childs level.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #48
    Krusader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I love how this stat keeps rising and rising but with little actual proof of the reality. Just because I can order a beer in French does not a French speaker make me. Ditto for the majority of so called Irish speakers. Even the most pro Irish stats show anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 actually speak it fluently.

    A good post on the matter from this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055958148

    400 out of 46,000 and only 40 for the more "intellectual" subjects.
    Read them stats and tell me anything close to 200,000 can speak, read and write Irish fluently to anything like the definition of that term. Its not because Irish speakers are intellectually slow, so the main reason seems to be a helluva lot less people actually speak it, beyond a childs level.

    obviously the LC is a major exam for alot of kids, now kids in meánscoileanna get the subjects through Irish, on the day some might feel a bit more comfortable doing them in English, but wouldn't they have to be able to understand their Irish instruction in the subject all through 5th & 6th year to get any kind of decent mark in the LC doing it through English, or have you just glossed over that fact


  • #49
    WooPeeA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,136 ✭✭✭WooPeeA


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    200,000 speakers or so and rising
    "Raisin" you mean..?


  • #50
    DJP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 359 ✭✭DJP


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Even the most pro Irish stats show anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000 actually speak it fluently.

    I seem to remember having this debate with you before. According to the census, I believe it is, and as was mentioned in the Dáil yesterday are supposed to be 76,000 fluent Irish speakers outside of the education system.

    Irish is doing well with the growing Irish language media and gaelscoileanna but is falling down in the Gaeltacht with young people there speaking it and in the business sector.

    So we need a bit of an IMF job done on the Irish language. Hopefully the 20 Year Strategy will do it. Crucially we need more second-level gaelscoileanna or gaelcholaistí (there are campaigns for eight more including two in Dublin) and the new family support centres and new cultural centres need to be built asap. And state signage needs to be dealt with including road signage- I mean in relation to new signage. And we need another Gaeilge subject for the L Cert as the new syllabus is dubbed down to much and way too easy (even insultingly so I believe) for fluent/native/people with very good Irish speakers. And the new National Training Centre should be let be developed in Baile Bhuirne in Cork. If these things happen soon I will be confident. The patient "the Irish language" is a psychotic patient in the Gaeltacht (in terms of young people) and the patient needs to be taken care of. Every month that goes by without care it becomes even harder to treat the patient satisfactorily.

    I do wonder why some people do not consider the-exciting- possibility that Irish may grow radically over the next 20 years with this new strategy if it is taken seriously from the beginning.


  • #51
    Jamiekelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Jamiekelly


    Personally, I blame rap music.


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  • #52
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Wibbs wrote: »

    400 out of 46,000 and only 40 for the more "intellectual" subjects.
    Read them stats and tell me anything close to 200,000 can speak, read and write Irish fluently to anything like the definition of that term. Its not because Irish speakers are intellectually slow, so the main reason seems to be a helluva lot less people actually speak it, beyond a childs level.


    I'm inclined to agree. Wikipedia puts the number at 70,000 - 80,000 but I would guess that it's still pushing it. There are plenty who claim to be able to speak it but they wouldn't be able to converse about anything more complicated than their hobbies or what they did for their summer holidays. Even I have difficulty reading Foinse and trying to understand the vocabulary of politics and economics. I'd say it's more like 50,000 with half of them being native speakers.


  • #53
    Scuid Mhór
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    WooPeeA wrote: »
    Right, I know it's Irish and we should protect it etc. but I think that putting life-saving signs written only in Irish without any English translation (such as "Don't cross this line" at railway stations) is a bit too much.

    So now if someone dies it's gonna be his fault as 'has been warned' or what?

    I know it's a national language but we all know the reality.

    this post is a national shame.


  • #54
    johnn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭johnn


    If I ever hear another word "As Gaeilge" it'll be too soon. Slan.


  • #55
    Potatofarl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭Potatofarl


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Remember seeing (monolingual) "Paisti ag Imirt"* signs on a road in Dundalk.

    Distance from Dundalk to nearest international land border < 10Km
    Distance from Dundalk to nearest Gaeltacht area of any significance > 100 Km

    * apparently it means "children at play"

    I'd imagine people from Ráth Cairn, Co. Meath would disagree


  • #56
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Crosáidí wrote: »
    obviously the LC is a major exam for alot of kids, now kids in meánscoileanna get the subjects through Irish, on the day some might feel a bit more comfortable doing them in English, but wouldn't they have to be able to understand their Irish instruction in the subject all through 5th & 6th year to get any kind of decent mark in the LC doing it through English, or have you just glossed over that fact
    No I'm not glossing over that fact, but if they were truly fluent then it should not be an issue. So either they're not or the vocabulary itself is too limited to secure a better mark in the subject.
    Darren J. Prior wrote: »
    I seem to remember having this debate with you before. According to the census, I believe it is, and as was mentioned in the Dáil yesterday are supposed to be 76,000 fluent Irish speakers outside of the education system.
    And as I seem to recall pointing out the census is self reporting and self reporting is highly inaccurate or every man on the web would have a ten inch mickey. Even if they believe in all earnest that they are fluent to what degree are they fluent. How much of a vocabulary do they have at their disposal to discuss more technical and esoteric subjects?
    I do wonder why some people do not consider the-exciting- possibility that Irish may grow radically over the next 20 years with this new strategy if it is taken seriously from the beginning.
    If it brings back and grows a fully formed language I would be as excited as the next man.
    mcmoustache wrote: »
    I'm inclined to agree. Wikipedia puts the number at 70,000 - 80,000 but I would guess that it's still pushing it. There are plenty who claim to be able to speak it but they wouldn't be able to converse about anything more complicated than their hobbies or what they did for their summer holidays. Even I have difficulty reading Foinse and trying to understand the vocabulary of politics and economics. I'd say it's more like 50,000 with half of them being native speakers.
    That's the issue I'm referencing alright. My concern is this, Irish did die back to smaller and smaller enclaves in the face of English and where it was spoken it was the simple language of the folk lifestyle of those who spoke it. It hadn't been the language of philosophy and learning like it was in the middle ages. When it was a very rich and different beast. Then the dialects were mixed together into one, "New Irish", it was homogenised for educational purposes as much as anything else. So now we have the Gaelscoils and that's good, but then what? Very few second level and no third level, so again the danger is that the children learning today will speak to each other as adults with a pidgin Irish more allied with 9 years olds than adults, relying on English when sophisticated subjects are broached. Imagine if English had died back and you were trying to build a full, educated and sophisticated language from fishermen in Cleethorpes and ten year olds. Unlikely to get Yeats or Beckett outa that mix. TBH I'd have tried to revive middle Irish.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #57
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Potatofarl wrote: »
    I'd imagine people from Ráth Cairn, Co. Meath would disagree

    I did say "of any significance"

    In any case by road its over 70Km away so the point still stands.


  • #58
    Potatofarl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭Potatofarl


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    I did say "of any significance"

    In any case by road its over 70Km away so the point still stands.

    And what would your definition of 'of any significance' be? A Gaeltacht area is a Gaeltacht area, but I get the impression that none of them are of any significance to you anyway.

    If you avoid the M1 its actually 61.3km...looks like you over-estimated a bit saying >100km...nearly even doubled it! :rolleyes:


  • #59
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    And Im sure its even less than 60Km if one travels by hot air baloon :rolleyes:

    On second thoughts the end of the day it doesnt matter if the Gaeltacht area is in the next street.

    Number of people on the Island of Ireland who would understand "Children at Play" without having a clue what "Paisti ag Imirt" means = 1 million (very conservatively probably closer to twice that)

    Number of people on the Island of Ireland who would understand "Paisti ag Imirt"" without having a clue what ""Children at Play" means = aproximately 0


  • #60
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Number of people on the Island of Ireland who would understand "Children at Play"

    Fardners and illiterates aside, it can't be far off 100%.


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  • #61
    Potatofarl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52 ✭✭Potatofarl


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    And Im sure its even less than 60Km if one travels by hot air baloon :rolleyes:

    On second thoughts the end of the day it doesnt matter if the Gaeltacht area is in the next street.

    Number of people on the Island of Ireland who would understand "Children at Play" without having a clue what "Paisti ag Imirt" means = 1 million (very conservatively probably closer to twice that)

    Number of people on the Island of Ireland who would understand "Paisti ag Imirt"" without having a clue what ""Children at Play" means = aproximately 0

    You have a hot air balloon?? :eek:

    Tá an t-ádh leat!


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