Freemasons?

PanchoVilla · 16-11-2010 02:40PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

ROFL, you quoted Eastern Star. Did you miss the bit where I said Eastern Star isn't actually Masonry, but uses the name, and copies regalia? Fail again there Pancho. You should really stop googling now and try some actual research.

So I should just take your word on that, right? OES only accepts Masons and their female relations but it's nothing to do with Masonry, nothing at all.

Owen · 16-11-2010 02:46PM

Not at all. Phone up the Grand Lodge in Molesworth Street, or even London. They'll tell you the same.

getz · 16-11-2010 02:49PM

The Recliner wrote: »

And his being a mason is mentioned where in that article?

www.crookedlawyers.com/

edendeli · 16-11-2010 02:49PM

Women aren't freemasons?, and they dont worship satan, a mason told me, so it must be true.

The Oregon Scottish Rite Freemason, January, 1996

From the Editor's Desk:

We have long promised to bring you essays and writings, controversial
or not, from Masonic leaders nation and world wide. This month,
Carolyn Clark Campbell, a Mason of an American Women's Lodge in New
York under the aegis of the Women's Grand Lodge of Belgium, presents
us an introduction to Women in Freemasonry. Sister Campbell commands
respect for her unique and balanced position in American Freemasonry.

Women in Freemasonry
by Carolyn Clark Campbell

I am a woman, an American, and a Freemason. When I tell
American men who are Freemasons this, they are generally surprised.
This is largely because of the fact that American Freemasonry has been
cut off from the rest of the world. Women Freemasons internationally
now number in the tens of thousands. There are more than 60,000 women
Freemasons in England. Women's lodges also exist in France, Spain,
Italy, Belgium, Switzerland, Denmark, Germany, Turkey, Argentina,
Canada, and now, the USA. I have undoubtedly omitted a few countries
with which I am not yet familiar. I am, by the way, the daughter of
an American Mason who was 32nd degree Scottish Rite.
http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artjun02/WOMEN-IN.htm

PanchoVilla · 16-11-2010 02:59PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Not at all. Phone up the Grand Lodge in Molesworth Street, or even London. They'll tell you the same.

I'm sure they could tell me a lot of things, but I'd rather learn things on my own.

The Order was created by Rob Morris in 1850 when, while confined by illness, he set down the principles of the order in his Rosary of the Eastern Star. By 1855, he had organized a "Supreme Constellation" in New York, which chartered chapters throughout the United States.

In 1866, Dr. Morris started working with Robert Macoy, and handed the Order over to him while Morris was traveling in the Holy Land. Macoy organized the current system of Chapters, and modified Dr. Morris' Rosary into a Ritual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Eastern_Star

After he became a Mason on March 5, 1846, he became convinced that there needed to be a way for female relatives of Masons to share in some measure in the benefits of Freemasonry. While teaching at the Eureka Masonic College ("The Little Red Brick School Building") in Richland, Mississippi in 1849-1850, he wrote Eastern Star's first ritual, titled The Rosary of the Eastern Star. He organized a "Supreme Constellation" in 1855 to charter Star chapters. In 1866, because of his planned travel abroad, he handed over the organizational authority of Eastern Star to Robert Macoy.

He later served as Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky in 1858-9.[4] Upon given a job as professor of the Masonic University, he moved to La Grange, Kentucky in 1860.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Morris_(Freemason)

Macoy was initiated in Lebanon Lodge No. 191 in New York City, January 20, 1848, passed, January 27, and Raised February 3 of that year. On August 15, 1855, he withdrew to affiliate with Adelphic Lodge No. 348. He was elected Deputy Grand Master of New York in June, 1856 and reelected in 1857. He was exalted in Orient Chapter No. 138, Royal Arch Masons, September 5, 1849 and became a member of Adelphic Chapter No. 150 on December 24, 1855. He was also affiliated with Union Chapter No. 180, Americas Chapter No. 215, and De Witt Clinton Chapter No. 142. He also received the Cryptic degrees and was a charter member of Adelphic Council No. 7, Royal and Select Masters. He was elected Grand Recorder of the Grand Council on June 4, 1855. He was also knighted in Palestine Encampment No. 18 of New York City, in February, 1851, and in March withdrew to join Morton Encampment No. 4. On April 28, 1874, he affiliated with De Witt Clinton Commandery No. 27 Knights Templar, where his membership continued for 20 years. He received the Scottish Rite degrees sometime prior to December 9, 1850, for on that date he received the 33rd Degree, Sovereign Grand Inspector General.

In 1866 Macoy published A Dictionary of Freemasonry, which comprised his own work ("General History of Freemasonry" and "Cyclopaedia of Freemasonry") as well as George Oliver's Dictionary of Symbolical Masonry of 1853. It has been reprinted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Macoy

Yeah, the OES has nothing to do with Freemasonry whatsoever. I don't know where anyone would get such a ridiculous idea.

The Recliner · 16-11-2010 03:00PM

getz wrote: »

www.crookedlawyers.com/

And am I supposed to just trawl through the site scanning for the word Mason

Either provide proper links or don't post random possibly damaging claims of pedophillia where there is no obvious connection

getz · 16-11-2010 03:26PM

The Recliner wrote: »

And am I supposed to just trawl through the site scanning for the word Mason

Either provide proper links or don't post random possibly damaging claims of pedophillia where there is no obvious connection

ok i will quote it for you,following a very successful meeting of victims of of irish solicitors at the committee dealing with judge brian curtin of the southwestern curcuit.as you probably know,the freemasons have taken an oath to help each other. the web site on freemasonary in the UK goverment link.www.independent .co.uk/news/ conservatives -at-the-heart-of-freemasonary-1580256.

Yitzhak Rabin · 16-11-2010 03:50PM

getz wrote: »

ok i will quote it for you,following a very successful meeting of victims of of irish solicitors at the committee dealing with judge brian curtin of the southwestern curcuit.as you probably know,the freemasons have taken an oath to help each other. the web site on freemasonary in the UK goverment link.www.independent .co.uk/news/ conservatives -at-the-heart-of-freemasonary-1580256.

That link doesn't link to any existing article. So last chance. Provide a credible source for your potentially libelous claim, or retract it please.

GhostInTheRuins · 16-11-2010 03:56PM

It does actually, he just pasted it wrong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/conservatives-at-the-heart-of-freemasonry-1580256.html

Yitzhak Rabin · 16-11-2010 04:20PM

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

It does actually, he just pasted it wrong

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/conservatives-at-the-heart-of-freemasonry-1580256.html

It still says absoultely nothing about Judge Curtin being a mason, let alone his being a mason resulting in a child pornography case being dropped. It doesn't even mention Curtin in the article.

So, again getz, evidence please, or remove the slur.

squod · 16-11-2010 04:29PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

ROFL, you quoted Eastern Star. Did you miss the bit where I said Eastern Star isn't actually Masonry, but uses the name, and copies regalia? Fail again there Pancho. You should really stop googling now and try some actual research.

Dunno about that.

UK (2008 mention of 20000 in Britain alone and another estimated that 60,000 female Masons belong to these two English Grand Lodges) and
France (2002 statement that of all lodges, 20% belong to mixed-gender masonry and 11% are for women only and 1988 statement of The Feminine Grand Lodge of France 3,000 members with 60 Lodges practicing only the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite and others have quoted up to 40,000 current women masons across multiple obediences)
and others across Mexico, South America and elsewhere

http://staffs.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Comasonry&action=display&thread=6521

Johnny Utah · 16-11-2010 04:39PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Not really odd TBH, as stated previously, here in Ireland we have different Lodges using different rituals/workings due to historical reasons. Stands to reason that any large organisation will have different branches doing things slightly differently. I can only comment on my own province and on how they do things. Doesn't mean that I have to be right, or the other guy has to be wrong, both scenarios can exist as a result of both lodges being separate entities.

Ah now, Paint Doctor, we're not talking about a different interpretation of secret rituals here..... this point relates specifically to the manner in which a prospective person is allowed to enter the Freemasons. Such a basic rule is not likely to change from one lodge to another, because then you may have a rigorous background check in one lodge, while the other lodge "can't really" do a check as they don't have access to a database!

Sorry, but I don't buy that, especially when you already stated that any criminal conviction would preclude membership. Sorry, PD, but you're backtracking now!:D

Furthermore, as Paddy indicated earlier, the fundamental mechanism in performing a background check is similar in all lodges:

"My mother lodge is in Scotland, but the essentials are the same."

paddymacsporran wrote: »

Regarding information about a candidate and any criminal record, I can only refer to my experience of my own lodge and it's workings. My mother lodge is in Scotland, but the essentials are the same. And to non-masons, you can pick that apart as you wish.

In passing a candidate, we of course would refer to the local justiciary, local religious leaders, local police, army and councillors to ascertain the suitability and moral fibre of any candidate. Any rumour on conjecture would of course result in a blackballing....

Owen · 16-11-2010 05:08PM

I'm not backtracking on anything. I've been very clear that it's open to common sense, as well as trying to find out if someone has a criminal record or not. Just because you think a 'basic rule' can't change from one lodge to another doesn't make it so. There are lots of differences in procedures between Lodges, it's the reality of any organisation with more than one location/group. But sure nitpick away. I've a thick skin at this stage

Regarding the Eastern Star, the dogs on the street know it's not official Masonry. They may practise Scottish Rite, but they're not recognised by the Grand Lodge of England, or Ireland. Eastern Star was setup as a separate entity purely to allow women to join, and was done separately to official Masonry, so no, women aren't allowed to join official Masonry. Some of the French Lodges aren't recognised for the same reasons, they're unofficial offshoots with their own rules. Like the People's Judean Front, and the Judean People's Front, Splitters!!

@Pancho 'prefer to do your own research' - well, you'd want to get a start on that bucko. You've done bugger all of your own so far apart from Googling

Owen · 16-11-2010 05:09PM

Should also say I didn't read your links yet Squod, had a late night last night, and teaching again tonight, so will read them soon and get back to you. Do appreciate them though!

squod · 16-11-2010 06:42PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Should also say I didn't read your links yet Squod, had a late night last night, and teaching again tonight, so will read them soon and get back to you. Do appreciate them though!

I heartily recommend that you do.

For any other interested parties there's interesting stuff in the the condensed story of Solomon's Temple in the ''Volume of Sacred Law'' ( Masons perspective ).
Masons accounts of Bible stories differ a bit from what the Bible says.

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/solomon_temple_freemasonry.html

The two previous links.

squod wrote: »

Fancy reading it now?

squod wrote: »

Jewish Encyclodedia's take

There's also accounts of a 33rd degree masons who left the order, which I could post again.

WakeUp · 17-11-2010 02:21AM

Is anyone willing to give us a verbatim transcript of the undertaken oath of the hood? Any takers??? If its all good in the hood this shouldnt be a problem after all its only a mens club right? Hotdogs and ale's, high fives and eight ball all a bit of harmless manly bonding. Anyone???..

Owen · 17-11-2010 02:32AM

squod wrote: »

There's also accounts of a 33rd degree masons who left the order, which I could post again.

Only home now, still wrecked. Will definitely read it tomorrow, promise.

As regards the 33rd degree, is it an Irish/British 33rd degree, or one of the ridiculous American ones? In America AFAIK, you can just get all your degrees in one week or so. Which is pretty pointless, as you don't get to soak up anything in the process.

Post it up anyway, would be interesting reading material all the same!

Yitzhak Rabin · 17-11-2010 09:17AM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Only home now, still wrecked. Will definitely read it tomorrow, promise.

As regards the 33rd degree, is it an Irish/British 33rd degree, or one of the ridiculous American ones? In America AFAIK, you can just get all your degrees in one week or so. Which is pretty pointless, as you don't get to soak up anything in the process.

Post it up anyway, would be interesting reading material all the same!

This is something that confuses me. I have heard there are only three degrees of freemasonry, but it also seems common to say there are 33. Which is the correct figure?

PanchoVilla · 17-11-2010 09:54AM

yekahs wrote: »

This is something that confuses me. I have heard there are only three degrees of freemasonry, but it also seems common to say there are 33. Which is the correct figure?

From what I can understand, it differs with each Rite. The three degrees you mention might refer to the first three which I believe are the same in all Rites: Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason. I think the vast majority of Masons never get beyond the degree of Master Mason. After that each Rite has different titles for the degrees. The Memphis Rite has 90 degrees and the Mizraim Rite has 96 degrees. I believe the York and Scottish Rites each have 33 degrees. This is only what I can find online so I can't claim to be 100% correct.

The following link provides a passage from the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry listing all the degrees of the Mizraim Rite (p. 673).

http://books.google.ie/books?id=GUS5-9IouBIC&pg=PA672&dq=Mizraim+encyclopedia+of+freemasonry&hl=en&ei=mqXjTMeUKcbLhAec88XKDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Mizraim%20encyclopedia%20of%20freemasonry&f=false

I'd love if we could get a sticky on Freemasonry outlining only what is known and can be proven about the rituals and degrees of each Rite, kind of like a Freemasonry resource thread.

Nehaxak · 17-11-2010 09:58AM

There was a post on a whistleblower's blog about the IRC in Ireland that mentioned freemason's being in the IRC - as if to suggest I presume that this was the reason for the entrenchment shown along with I suppose the secrecy and inability or unwillingness for the Irish government to act against them.

Any person on here from the freemasons with any knowledge of same (or otherwise) care to make an educated comment ?

I know from my own past, (though don't ask me to provide evidence as I will refuse to do so as I respect the privacy of others who I regard very highly and I have no axe to grind either way with freemason's regardless, or my past employers for that matter) that freemasons have a very strong influence among the NGO sector in Ireland.

PanchoVilla · 17-11-2010 10:01AM

Nehaxak wrote: »

There was a post on a whistleblower's blog about the IRC in Ireland that mentioned freemason's being in the IRC - as if to suggest I presume that this was the reason for the entrenchment shown along with I suppose the secrecy and inability or unwillingness for the Irish government to act against them.

Any person on here from the freemasons with any knowledge of same (or otherwise) care to make an educated comment ?

I know from my own past, (though don't ask me to provide evidence as I will refuse to do so as I respect the privacy of others who I regard very highly and I have no axe to grind either way with freemason's regardless, or my past employers for that matter) that freemasons have a very strong influence among the NGO sector in Ireland.

You're not gonna get Freemasons talking about any controversies here. All Master Masons swear an oath to keep silent about any brother's secrets except for murder and treason.

Absolam · 17-11-2010 03:26PM

PanchoVilla wrote: »

From what I can understand, it differs with each Rite. The three degrees you mention might refer to the first three which I believe are the same in all Rites: Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason. I think the vast majority of Masons never get beyond the degree of Master Mason. After that each Rite has different titles for the degrees. The Memphis Rite has 90 degrees and the Mizraim Rite has 96 degrees. I believe the York and Scottish Rites each have 33 degrees. This is only what I can find online so I can't claim to be 100% correct.

The following link provides a passage from the Encyclopedia of Freemasonry listing all the degrees of the Mizraim Rite (p. 673).

http://books.google.ie/books?id=GUS5-9IouBIC&pg=PA672&dq=Mizraim+encyclopedia+of+freemasonry&hl=en&ei=mqXjTMeUKcbLhAec88XKDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Mizraim%20encyclopedia%20of%20freemasonry&f=false

I'd love if we could get a sticky on Freemasonry outlining only what is known and can be proven about the rituals and degrees of each Rite, kind of like a Freemasonry resource thread.

In Irish Freemasonry there are three Craft degrees; Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason. These are the essence of Masonry. Others degrees are conferred by 'appendant bodies' up to the 33rd degree. Certain commentators (such as GETZ) will say that 33rd degree Masons are at the top, and the rest are lower degrees. Masons would say that there is nothing 'higher' than the third degree, just different avenues to explore for those interested.

Not to hash over the whole thread but picking up on some recent points;
The ''Volume of the Sacred Law'' (squod) is whatever religious book a Mason may choose, so it may be a Bible, Torah, Quran, etc. It's not a "Masonic" Bible. The Bible generally used in Lodges is a straightforward King James with a fancy cover.
Biblical stories (such as those in Kings) are used are reference points for morality stories in Masonic ritual; hardly surprising since these would have been very familiar stories to people in the 17th century. Many travelling 'mummers' groups and guild troupes did something very similar at the time.

WakeUp: There is no 'Oath of the hood'. There are oaths, and I doubt anyone would want to post a transcript of them as it would mean breaking the oath to do so.

As for the IRC; what is the IRC? I doubt the government would choose not to act against any body just because it contained Freemasons; why would it make a difference?

All Master Masons do not swear an oath to keep silent about any brother's secrets except for murder and treason; we swear an oath which contains some elements of that statement which do not amount to the construal of PancoVilla. Not going to tell you what it does contain (as above), but it certainly does not contain any demand that would be repugnant to a law abiding citizen of the State of Ireland.

squod · 17-11-2010 05:43PM

Absolam wrote: »

Not to hash over the whole thread but picking up on some recent points;
The ''Volume of the Sacred Law'' (squod) is whatever religious book a Mason may choose, so it may be a Bible, Torah, Quran, etc. It's not a "Masonic" Bible.

I didn't think it was a masonic Bible. But it is true then that other religions are treated as equal to the Christian faith.

Absolam wrote: »

Biblical stories (such as those in Kings) are used are reference points for morality stories in Masonic ritual; hardly surprising since these would have been very familiar stories to people in the 17th century.

That's the point I'm making/asking about. A fraternity which is (by some accounts) older than Solomon. Yet a large chunk of the rituals come from Solomon's story and his temple. Why Solomon and not ?Josiah, or the Kings who raised temples in Solomon's place after him.

Edit; have you read the book of Kings?

PanchoVilla · 17-11-2010 07:21PM

Thanks Absolam. I can understand your reluctance to post the oath as you are sworn to secrecy, and this may be why the "profane" have come to distrust Freemasons. I mean, I honestly wouldn't like "having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven" for revealing the secrets of Freemasonry. I've found a transcript of the full Master Masons initiation ritual as provided in Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor by Malcolm C. Duncan [1866]. I imagine this book, and many other Masonic texts, would not ave been made available to the general public until fairly recently. It includes the oath.

"I, Peter Gabe (Master gives three raps with his gavel, when all present assemble round the altar), of my own free-will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God, and this worshipful Lodge, erected to him and dedicated to the holy Sts. John, do hereby and hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will always hail, ever conceal, and never reveal any of the secrets, arts, parts, point or points, of the Master Masons' Degree, to any person or persons whomsoever, except it be to a true and lawful brother of this Degree, or in a regularly constituted Lodge of Master Masons, nor unto him, or them, until by strict trial, due examination, or lawful information, I shall have found him, or them, as lawfully entitled to the same as I am myself.

"I furthermore promise and swear, that I will stand to and abide by all laws, rules, and regulations of the Master Masons' Degree, and of the Lodge of which I may hereafter become a member, as far as the same shall come to my knowledge; and that I will ever maintain and support the constitution, laws, and edicts of the Grand Lodge under which the same shall be holden.

"Further, that I will acknowledge and obey all due signs and summonses sent to me from a Master Masons' Lodge, or given me by a brother of that Degree, if within the length of my cable-tow.

"Further, that I will always aid and assist all poor, distressed, worthy Master Masons, their widows and orphans, knowing them to be such, as far as their necessities may require, and my ability permit, without material injury to myself and family.

"Further, that I will keep a worthy brother Master Mason's secrets inviolable, when communicated to and received by me as such, murder and treason excepted.

"Further, that I will not aid, nor be present at, the initiation, passing, or raising of a woman, an old man in his dotage, a young man in his nonage, an atheist, a madman, or fool, knowing them to be such.

"Further, that I will not sit in a Lodge of clandestine-made Masons, nor converse on the subject of Masonry with a clandestine-made Mason, nor one who has been expelled or suspended from a Lodge, while under that sentence, knowing him or them to be such.

"Further, I will not cheat, wrong, nor defraud a Master Mason's Lodge, nor a brother of this Degree, knowingly, nor supplant him in any of his laudable undertakings, but will give him due and timely notice, that he may ward off all danger.

"Further, that I will not knowingly strike a brother Master Mason, or otherwise do him personal violence in anger, except in the necessary defence of my family or property.

"Further, that I will not have illegal carnal intercourse with a Master Mason's wife, his mother, sister, or daughter, nor suffer the same to be done by others, if in my power to prevent.

"Further, that I will not give the Grand Masonic word, in any other manner or form than that in which I shall receive it, and then in a low breath.

"Further, that I will not give the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress, except in case of the most imminent danger, in a just and lawful Lodge, or for the benefit of instruction; and if ever I should see it given, or hear the words accompanying it, by a worthy brother in distress, I will fly to his relief, if there is a greater probability of saving his life than losing my own.

"All this I most solemnly, sincerely promise and swear, with a firm and steady resolution to perform the same, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind what-ever, binding myself, under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, 1 my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven, that no more remembrance might be had of so vile and wicked a wretch as I would be, should I ever, knowingly, violate this my Master Mason's obligation. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/dun04.htm

The parts I bolded seem to be fairly unambiguous. I failed to find any mention of adhering to the laws of any nation, only to those of the Grand Lodge. Even then, those laws seem to only pertain to other Master Masons and anyone else is fair game. I recommend anyone interested in this to read the whole text, especially the reenactment of Hiram Abiff's murder.

The following link also includes the initiation rituals of the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh degrees of the York Rite. I have not had a chance to read them yet.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/index.htm

WakeUp · 18-11-2010 01:53AM

Absolam wrote: »

WakeUp: There is no 'Oath of the hood'. There are oaths, and I doubt anyone would want to post a transcript of them as it would mean breaking the oath to do so.

Thanks for the reply. Don’t take this personally you seem like a decent auld skin like Yekah’s and many other brothers and wannabe brothers I’m not having a go at any of you on a personal level. But here is the thing. Secrecy naturally makes one suspicious well it makes me suspicious anyway.

On the one hand brothers claim “well there is nothing secret about the hood at all where did you get that from, it’s just a club we get together drink beer play darts watch midget porn and generally just take it easy” or something along those lines. Then on the other hand I ask about an oath and you tell me that by posting a transcript of an oath you would be breaking that oath and cant do it therefore that makes its a secret oath right? What’s so fcking secret about these oaths excuse the language I’m intrigued.

Panchovilla has posted an oath there in his last post and I’ve seen that before. If that is indeed an oath of the hood it can only be described as disturbing and that’s being generous.
Imagine me joining lets say the local men’s bowling club. I walk in and ask may I join. They say sure you can join but first we have to do a backround check on you. I say sound. That comes back all good. Then they tell me I have to sign an oath. I say fine out with your oath. Then they say by the way if you break that oath or tell anyone about it we will sever your body in two, take out one of your bowels burn it to ash then scatter that ash to the four winds of heaven. Nice one, where do I sign. Not exactly normal is it, to be honest I’d call the Siochána and have them down there in five min’s telling them there’s some crazy dude in that there bowling club threatening to cut me up. Surely you can see why people would have questions and might be suspicious?

Might I enquire as to your status within the hood? Would you be an overlord I mean higher than entry level. Any spare knowledge going there for a minion like myself?

Cavehill Red · 18-11-2010 02:13AM

King Mob wrote: »

You realise that the vast majority of scientists are in some way religious, right?

Would love to see a link for that.
The last survey of professional scientists I saw had over 90% of them as atheists.

Absolam · 18-11-2010 10:34AM

squod wrote: »

I didn't think it was a masonic Bible. But it is true then that other religions are treated as equal to the Christian faith.

Yes, insofar as Freemasonry does not favour or promote any religion at all, but encourages members to be diligent in their religious duties as the member sees them.

squod wrote: »

That's the point I'm making/asking about. A fraternity which is (by some accounts) older than Solomon. Yet a large chunk of the rituals come from Solomon's story and his temple. Why Solomon and not ?Josiah, or the Kings who raised temples in Solomon's place after him.

The fraternity is not by any reasonable account anywhere near as old as the first accounts of Solomons Temple, but I think the story would have been much more common amongst ordinary people than the story of Josiah, and therefore more accessible as a lesson.

squod wrote: »

have you read the book of Kings?

Yes. Not because of Freemasonry, or because I'm a Christian. Just because I like to read.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

Thanks Absolam. I can understand your reluctance to post the oath as you are sworn to secrecy, and this may be why the "profane" have come to distrust Freemasons.

I have never in twenty four years of being a Mason heard a Mason use the word 'profane'. I only ever hear it from anti Masons.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I mean, I honestly wouldn't like "having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven" for revealing the secrets of Freemasonry.

Would anybody? But then, has it ever been done to anybody? Yet people such as yourself seem to believe they've had the secrets revealed to them. So lots of links on the internet, and a dearth of severed bodies.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I've found a transcript of the full Master Masons initiation ritual as provided in Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor by Malcolm C. Duncan [1866]. I imagine this book, and many other Masonic texts, would not ave been made available to the general public until fairly recently. It includes the oath.

It includes an oath, from 1866. Not what I would call up to date reading, for conspiracy theorists or Masons.

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The parts I bolded seem to be fairly unambiguous. I failed to find any mention of adhering to the laws of any nation, only to those of the Grand Lodge. Even then, those laws seem to only pertain to other Master Masons and anyone else is fair game. I recommend anyone interested in this to read the whole text, especially the reenactment of Hiram Abiff's murder.

They do seem fairly unambiguous; I'd say that Pope Pious IIs proclamations on Islam were unambiguous too, but that most Irish Roman Catholics today wouldn't really agree with them (or even know about them).

PanchoVilla wrote: »

The following link also includes the initiation rituals of the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh degrees of the York Rite. I have not had a chance to read them yet.http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/dun/index.htm

Not quite sure why you're posting these or how you think they're relevant if you haven't read them; perhaps you think it will needle Masons to see them posted? I've seen lots of rituals, some accurate, some not, posted on the internet. I'm not a York Rite Mason so I won't comment on these other than to say it looks like it could be someones take on a variation of Masonic ritual.

WakeUp wrote: »

But here is the thing. Secrecy naturally makes one suspicious well it makes me suspicious anyway. On the one hand brothers claim “well there is nothing secret about the hood at all where did you get that from, it’s just a club we get together drink beer play darts watch midget porn and generally just take it easy” or something along those lines. Then on the other hand I ask about an oath and you tell me that by posting a transcript of an oath you would be breaking that oath and cant do it therefore that makes its a secret oath right? What’s so fcking secret about these oaths excuse the language I’m intrigued.

Well, there is nothing secret about Freemasonry; wander up to Molesworth Street and take a tour. Are there secrets in Freemasonry? Yes. If you want to know what they are (rather than think you know what they are) then become a Freemason. Them being secrets, we're hardly going to tell you what they are just because you say on the internet you're suspicious and interested. If you're really that interested, you can join and find out, if you're not then it won't bother you too much.

WakeUp wrote: »

Panchovilla has posted an oath there in his last post and I’ve seen that before. If that is indeed an oath of the hood it can only be described as disturbing and that’s being generous.

As I previously posted I've never heard of 'an oath of the hood'. Even so, if you are generously disturbed, whose concern is that?

WakeUp wrote: »

Imagine me joining lets say the local men’s bowling club. I walk in and ask may I join. They say sure you can join but first we have to do a backround check on you. I say sound. That comes back all good. Then they tell me I have to sign an oath. I say fine out with your oath. Then they say by the way if you break that oath or tell anyone about it we will sever your body in two, take out one of your bowels burn it to ash then scatter that ash to the four winds of heaven. Nice one, where do I sign. Not exactly normal is it, to be honest I’d call the Siochána and have them down there in five min’s telling them there’s some crazy dude in that there bowling club threatening to cut me up. Surely you can see why people would have questions and might be suspicious?

Hmmm. Not sure if it's normal for a bowling club, since I'm not a member of one

. But by your argument, the people who would have questions and might be suspicious are the ones who've been asked to take an oath such as you've described. Because anyone who hasn't taken an oath like that doesn't actually know about it do they?

WakeUp wrote: »

Might I enquire as to your status within the hood? Would you be an overlord I mean higher than entry level. Any spare knowledge going there for a minion like myself?

Feel free. I'm not 'within the hood', have no knowledge of such an organisation, nor of their structures. If they're anything like your local bowling club, they sound pretty strange though

squod · 18-11-2010 11:18AM

Absolam wrote: »

Yes, insofar as Freemasonry does not favour or promote any religion at all, but encourages members to be diligent in their religious duties as the member sees them.

A yes it is then. Thank you.

Absolam wrote: »

The fraternity is not by any reasonable account anywhere near as old as the first accounts of Solomons Temple, but I think the story would have been much more common amongst ordinary people than the story of Josiah, and therefore more accessible as a lesson.

The key point is why Solomon? I take it you have read Kings.

Then did Solomon build a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, in the mount that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the children of Ammon. And so did he for all his foreign wives, who burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Then, if anyone knows anything bad about that person - like they have a criminal record, or if they're a bad person in society, then can be refused membership.

Like I've pointed out before, if you have any sort of wrong doing in your past, you're not allowed join.

There's obvious debate about Solomon, we can only say he was judged.

Wherefore Jehovah said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant

Solomon isn't the kind of person I'd expect to find in your lodge, he certainly doesn't fit your membership criteria. Yet he is there, in the majority of your rituals.

And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked .... for thyself understanding to discern justice; behold, I have done according to thy word: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there hath been none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee

Solomon had such wisdom that people came to ask him questions from all over the gaff. Which he answered. The story goes on to describe Gods anger at Solomon for choosing false gods over him. The man with the greatest wisdom in the world chooses Chemosh and Molech before God.

Absolam · 18-11-2010 11:45AM

squod wrote: »

But it is true then that other religions are treated as equal to the Christian faith.

Actually, in the interests of specificity I should say that the Masonic Order will only admit as a member a man who expresses a belief in a supreme being. Beyond that any discussion of religion is banned at meetings and attendant meals, so as to preserve harmony between members who would be of different faiths.

squod wrote: »

The key point is why Solomon? I take it you have read Kings.

I did answer the point above, but I take it from your quote that you're inferring that Masonic references to the building of Solomons Temple refer to his building of a 'high place for Chemosh'. This is not the case, the chapters relevant to Masonry are in 1 Kings 5 to 7, dealing with the building of the first Temple. If you do choose to take a tour of Freemasons Hall in Molesworth St, you'll see the Chronicles & Kings references below scenes high on the walls of Grand Lodge Room. This isn't a great pic, but they're above the portraits.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/48720645_961c640ab6_z.jpg?zz=1

squod wrote: »

There's obvious debate about Solomon, we can only say he was judged. Solomon isn't the kind of person I'd expect to find in your lodge, he certainly doesn't fit your membership criteria. Yet he is there, in the majority of your rituals.

I would say the predominant image of Solomon in Christian mythology is as a wise king, and it is for this he is lauded and used as a positive example. His position in some Masonic lessons is for that reason; he is a recognisable symbol of wisdom.

squod wrote: »

Solomon had such wisdom that people came to ask him questions from all over the gaff. Which he answered. The story goes on to describe Gods anger at Solomon for choosing false gods over him. The man with the greatest wisdom in the world chooses Chemosh and Molech before God.

And yet the majority of Christians would not think of Solomon as an idolator, they would think of him as a wise temple builder. None of which has anything to do with Freemasonry, other than that the original Freemasons would have been aware of his most well known activities (building the Temple) and found him a useful example for illustrating a lesson. Don't forget, in the seventeenth century most Bibles would have still been in Latin, and most people couldn't read. So a lot of Solomons story was unknown to the vast majority of people, including most Freemasons.

IceMaiden · 18-11-2010 05:46PM

I think its true to say that it’s a tangled web when looking in to the origins of the craft & the various off-shoots or bodies that try to work in similar ways. Perhaps religions & Christianity could also be said to come from a similar confused & manipulated origin.Interpretation of ancient written works is debatable & various interpretations have been about for some time, be that amateur ,professional or scholarly .

The true origins of Freemasonry supposedly still remains uncertain after numerous works by various people for a number of years, however as with religion & history still old documents appear either being released for interpretation/viewing or secreted away in private collections only for use by a few.Discoveries of historical artefacts & scripts still occasionally get made & perhaps one day further historical matter of Masonry will come to light.

The old testament has at least two texts that could be connected as already mentioned the book of
I kings ,:- v 1-6 Hiram the king of Tyre sent a embassy to Solomon ,having learnt he was anointed king in succession to his father & because Hiram had always been a friend of David.
Solomon sent the message I therefore plan to build a temple ,, so now have cedars of Lebanon cut down for me

Following that is some description of the temples construction etc.
King Solomon sent for Hiram of Tyre , the child of the Widow belonging to the tribe of Naphtali, his father was a Tyrian ,worker of bronze & cast two pillars for Solomon

In IIChroniclesII 3-14 It basically gives a similar account:- Solomon despatched a message to Huram king of Tyre //I build a house for the name of Yahweh my God ,Send me a skilled man in gold, silver ,bronze,iron,scarlet,crimson,violet & engraving , he is to work with my skilled men .
King of Tyre replied I send you a skilled craftsman ,Huramabi the son of a Danite by a Tyrian father ,he’s skilled in the use of gold,silver,bronze etc,Some conclude its debatable if Solomon’s Temple was built by a Phoenician master builder & dedicated to the God of Israel or to Astarte ,

Freemasons?

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