Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

National Postcodes to be introduced

1…1112141617…295

Comments

  • #392
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    I believe what we need is an accurate system (like loc8 or gocode) with a human dimension - ie. possible for people to interperate something from the first 1 or 2 characters. This won't be possilbe for all addresses but would be for cities and major towns.


  • #393
    who_am_I?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭who_am_I?


    Loc8 will do that

    Try W8l for a 3.5 km square in Crosshaven
    then Try W8l-4YK for a 100m square
    The try W8L-82-4YK for the exact location


  • #394
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    who_am_I? wrote: »
    Loc8 will do that

    But it can't do C1,C2,C3 for Cork, K1 for Kilkenny, T1 for Tralee etc. Human understandable codes are necessary.


  • #395
    who_am_I?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭who_am_I?


    conolan wrote: »
    But it can't do C1,C2,C3 for Cork, K1 for Kilkenny, T1 for Tralee etc. Human understandable codes are necessary.

    you underestimate the intelligence of normal people.

    Kilkenny is an interesting one, using a few letters to distinguish Kilkenny from Kildare or Kilarney is nearly impossible.
    The nature of traditional irish palcenames Kill - Ath - Bally makes this an impossible task and will lead to fighting.
    Kilkenny will argue it is a medieval city and important tourist destination and the name of a county, Kilarney will argue that it is a much bigger tourist destination. and deserves K1 as its post code.
    Now how do I distinguish between number 1 and lower case L when someone writes a code


  • #396
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    who_am_I? wrote: »
    using a few letters to distinguish Kilkenny from Kildare or Kilarney is nearly impossible.
    Its been done at county level (on the car number plates) but not at town level.
    It didn't take long for people to cop on to the location of an 01 phone number or a D4 address.
    In that respect, would it be helpful for Loc8 to publish a schematic map of ireland with all the (named) 3.5 km grids superimposed on it, just to give a general overview?


  • Advertisement
  • #397
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    Obviously there isn't a perfect system. Loc8 and gocode seem to have concentrated on a technical solution, without considering human adoption. There is a tradeoff between accuracy and readability. My solution, launching tomorrow, keeps the accuracy while making it easier for people to understand and remember.


  • #398
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    conolan wrote: »
    My solution, launching tomorrow, keeps the accuracy while making it easier for people to understand and remember.
    Yippee! Once more into the fray ....


  • #399
    who_am_I?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭who_am_I?


    conolan wrote: »
    Obviously there isn't a perfect system. Loc8 and gocode seem to have concentrated on a technical solution, without considering human adoption. There is a tradeoff between accuracy and readability. My solution, launching tomorrow, keeps the accuracy while making it easier for people to understand and remember.

    Cool
    I Can't wait to see it

    Did you put in for tender on the national post codes?


  • #400
    Blisterman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,495 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    The English postcodes are an absolute disaster. Here are some of the issues I've had with it.

    1. Moved into a different apartment in the same building. All mail for the building is delivered in a bag to reception who sort it. Changed only the apartment number on my bank account address. A few weeks later, try to pay my phone bill only to find out they wouldn't accept payment as the apartment number and postcode don't match. Turns out the same building has several post codes depending on apartment. Had my phone disconnected while I waited for the bank to change the postcode on my account.

    2. Lived in an apartment complex in apartment 405. This apartment complex had a single post code for the whole building Couldn't take out a mobile phone contract with O2, as the way their system works is, you type in your postcode, and select an apartment number from the list. This list has a maximum length of less than 405. Meaning my apartment wasn't able to be selected. According to O2, there is no way around this, and I can't take out a contract.

    3. Recently moved into a newly built building, and was given a new postcode. This postcode was not on the bank's computer for a month after I moved in, so I couldn't change my address, and had to go to my old apartment to collect my bank statements.

    A coordinate based system seems like it would avoid all these problems.


  • #401
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,896 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Blisterman wrote: »
    The English postcodes are an absolute disaster. Here are some of the issues I've had with it.

    1. Moved into a different apartment in the same building. All mail for the building is delivered in a bag to reception who sort it. Changed only the apartment number on my bank account address. A few weeks later, try to pay my phone bill only to find out they wouldn't accept payment as the apartment number and postcode don't match. Turns out the same building has several post codes depending on apartment. Had my phone disconnected while I waited for the bank to change the postcode on my account.

    2. Lived in an apartment complex in apartment 405. This apartment complex had a single post code for the whole building Couldn't take out a mobile phone contract with O2, as the way their system works is, you type in your postcode, and select an apartment number from the list. This list has a maximum length of less than 405. Meaning my apartment wasn't able to be selected. According to O2, there is no way around this, and I can't take out a contract.

    3. Recently moved into a newly built building, and was given a new postcode. This postcode was not on the bank's computer for a month after I moved in, so I couldn't change my address, and had to go to my old apartment to collect my bank statements.

    A coordinate based system seems like it would avoid all these problems.

    Neither of those issues are with the postcode system, but with the businesses misusing the information. It does show one of the pitfalls of relying on any system too much!


  • Advertisement
  • #402
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    I would be inclined to go with an existing post code system. The UK system works very well and the Australian system is good too. They have all addresses in Oz down to three lines - street, town, post code. Given that they deal with wide open spaces over there we could substitute county codes for their state codes e.g. DU 1001

    Geo coding is too complex, generates too many codes and difficult to remember for ordinary folks.


  • #403
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,817 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Blisterman wrote: »
    The English postcodes are an absolute disaster. Here are some of the issues I've had with it.

    ...

    A coordinate based system seems like it would avoid all these problems.

    The problem is with the register - that the register (or database) of addresses is incorrect, incomplete or not kept up to date between all the users.

    You still have the problem of keeping the register of addresses up to date, even if you use a coordinate system of some sort to derive the code.


  • #404
    jetpack101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭jetpack101


    BrianD wrote: »
    I would be inclined to go with an existing post code system. The UK system works very well and the Australian system is good too. They have all addresses in Oz down to three lines - street, town, post code. Given that they deal with wide open spaces over there we could substitute county codes for their state codes e.g. DU 1001

    Geo coding is too complex, generates too many codes and difficult to remember for ordinary folks.

    These are all old systems, We have the opportunity to setup a brand new system that integrates technology that did not exist when the UK or other systems where setup.

    It would be a shame to let this slip through our fingers and install an old system.

    PS:
    I sent of a letter yesterday (mostly send email) and my return address had the LOC8 number at the bottom after my full address.


  • #405
    jetpack101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭jetpack101


    Forgot to ask,

    Has anyone any idea when and if Google will reference LOC8 codes??


  • #406
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,896 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BrianD wrote: »
    Geo coding is too complex, generates too many codes and difficult to remember for ordinary folks.

    There's nothing to stop anyone using both systems, just map the geocode to the allocated postcode, job done.


  • #407
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    jetpack101 wrote: »
    Forgot to ask,

    Has anyone any idea when and if Google will reference LOC8 codes??

    Loc8 is a proposed system, as is gocode and iCode6. PA Consulting are currently working on a contract to select a system and means of disseminating it. So Google and many others will wait till the official system is decided.


  • #408
    who_am_I?
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭who_am_I?


    conolan wrote: »
    My solution, launching tomorrow, keeps the accuracy while making it easier for people to understand and remember.

    Lets be having it then.


  • #409
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Just a small technical point Conolan... 4 decimal places of Lat/long as an origin will not guarantee 6m position accuracy across the country!!! That is why Loc8 is 7 characters plus 1 additional one used as a checker code to make it 8 - also essential in a modern system to be used in safety critcal applications.

    There are many other deficiencies in your system Conolan - but we will leave them for another day!

    And what about the other things you were broadcasting about in earlier posts - looks like you have forgotten about all those things now in your eagerness to make untested claims to the world!

    Especially what about adding names of places to your code - where did that idea go - if you are doing it for some city centres (not Dublin) why are you not doing it for every town in the country - was this not one of your criticims of others in earlier posts?

    Good luck with it......


  • #410
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    Arklow area A1
    Athlone A2
    Bray B1
    Carlow C4
    Drogheda D1
    Dundalk D3
    Ennis E1
    Naas N11-N19
    Navan N2
    Newbridge N1A-N1x
    Portlaoise P1
    Sligo S1
    Tralee T1
    Tullamore T2
    Wexford W3
    Wicklow W4
    There can be more. It's the concept I'm peddling. In 4 weeks I can hardly have a complete solution. What I'm trying to do is make an address code that is more meaningful to people than either of the two (technically excellent I'm sure) current solutions being offered..


  • #411
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,286 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    conolan wrote: »
    Arklow area A1
    Athlone A2
    Bray B1
    Carlow C4
    Drogheda D1
    Dundalk D3
    Ennis E1
    Naas N11-N19
    Navan N2
    Newbridge N1A-N1x
    Portlaoise P1
    Sligo S1
    Tralee T1
    Tullamore T2
    Wexford W3
    Wicklow W4
    There can be more. It's the concept I'm peddling. In 4 weeks I can hardly have a complete solution. What I'm trying to do is make an address code that is more meaningful to people than either of the two (technically excellent I'm sure) current solutions being offered..

    i thought maybe apply a similar system to the licence system in a format ala county-town-townsland(or housing estate/street name, )-number. Any more one-off houses built etc just add them to the index and lets face it there may not be much of them.

    (e.g TS-MH-BV-01)

    I mean considering they can make landline phone numbers unique it cant be that difficult surely. No doubt this bunch of clowns in govt will hire some over priced quango to make a pure hames of it and command big salaries


  • Advertisement
  • #412
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    What I'm trying to do is make an address code that is more meaningful to people than either of the two (technically excellent I'm sure) current solutions being offered..

    But part of Athlone (Monksland) is IH, or is that 1H and Dublin Airport starts with I/1 also?? And Ashbourne starts with "H"???

    How come you do not use the Irish version Names?

    And again, an origin with 4 decimal places of Lat/long will not guarantee 6m accuracy - that's why Loc8 Code is 7 characters plus 1 extra to support self checking in case errors are made by the human (a significant human dimension I would say!!)


  • #413
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    i thought maybe apply a similar system to the licence system in a format ala county-town-townsland(or housing estate/street name, )-number. Any more one-off houses built etc just add them to the index and lets face it there may not be much of them.

    (e.g TS-MH-BV-01)

    I think the issue with that is it's not as accurate as lat/long based code. Ireland is uniquely in the position to have the only absolutely accurate unique code per dog kennel in Europe because we are so late into the fray.

    I have another method that uses the county prefixes followed by 6 characters that's based on lat/long and as accurate as loc8/gocode/iCode6. But the 6 characters are random and meaningless.


  • #414
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    garydubh wrote: »
    But part of Athlone (Monksland) is IH, or is that 1H and Dublin Airport starts with I/1 also?? And Ashbourne starts with "H"???

    With time and resources these issues could be improved on. If there are people who are interested in improving it, I'll release my code.


  • #415
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    With time and resources these issues could be improved on. If there are people who are interested in improving it, I'll release my code.

    Oh - must have got it wrong - a few weeks ago you were saying that you had all the solutions and what you had was better than Loc8 Code.
    Were you not also saying that you give a seperate code to each apartment in an apartment block also?

    .........To be fair Conolan, I think you are just beginning to see the issues that Loc8 has spent 5 years dealing with - I guess you have now found out that there are many different issues to be considered - not least that a calculation accurcay is not a position accuracy! At least you have established now that 6m accuracy (or better) needs 7 characters and if you want to add place names or other features then there will be more extra characters.......!!!


  • #416
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    garydubh wrote: »
    Oh - must have got it wrong - a few weeks ago you were saying that you had all the solutions and what you had was better than Loc8 Code.

    I have a strong desire to see something that's easier for people to use than either of the current solutions. I don't have all the solutions. You and the gocode people know so much more than me about this stuff. But I think you both have taken an engineering or mathematical approach without considering whether people would accept it.
    garydubh wrote: »
    Were you not also saying that you give a seperate code to each apartment in an apartment block also?

    I think that level of accuracy is unnecessary and adds to the complexity of the code, therefore reduces the number of people who will use it.

    I love the accuracy inherent in lat/long but am driven by KeepItSimpleStupid.


  • #417
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    I have a strong desire to see something that's easier for people to use than either of the current solutions. I don't have all the solutions. But I think you both have taken an engineering or mathematical approach without considering whether people would accept it..

    Conolan - Loc8 code has taken all system and user requirements into account over a period of 5 years and to say it is just an engineering approach only ignores the fact that it was field tested and refined amongst users for 2 years and has designed-in elements which are user/human orientated. I think you have not taken the time to understand fully what is going on in Loc8 Codes. If your hangup is only related to your desire to have a placename in the code..... why - a placename is already in the address! In previous posts you suggested that your code would work without an address but now it is clear it is not accurate enough and you do not have seperate codes for apartments (see below) so you have to use an address with it. If you have to use an address - then why do you need a placename in the code? See NI, USA and Canadian Codes for relevant examples.
    conolan wrote: »
    I think that level of accuracy is unnecessary and adds to the complexity of the code, therefore reduces the number of people who will use it. ..

    But in earlier posts you criticised Loc8 because it was not doing this. As stated before, Loc8 Code has a provision for this. (different codes for different apartments in the same building)
    conolan wrote: »
    I love the accuracy inherent in lat/long but am driven by KeepItSimpleStupid.

    But you are using Lat/long and you are claiming 6m accuracy which is not true. You also stated that you could add placenames to the code - now you have found that it is not that easy in your 6 character target. Previously you quoted the number of properties you can add a code to if you used sequential numbering but you have not used that method. Your design ambitions seem to be changing to suit what you can achieve!

    And anyhow what is "simple" or "people friendly" about "MFARZY"


  • #418
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Maybe we wouldnt need any more mumbo jumbo crap from the government if we actually had proper street signs, house numbers, road signs and properly defined borders between areas in our towns cities and countryside maybe following telephone and electoral boundaries..Iv said it here before, I dread to see what rubbish we will be presented with when this goes ahead.


  • #419
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    charlemont wrote: »
    .. if we actually had proper street signs, house numbers, road signs .....

    I agree that we would be better off with names on all roads and numbers for all houses. However that's a separate issue to postcodes.

    A postcode would be implemented quicker and cheaper than a multi-year naming and numbering of huge numbers of dwellings.


  • #420
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,188 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Are they not naming all the roads for post codes? I've seen loads of local roads with new Lxxxx signs on them.


  • Advertisement
  • #421
    Batiste
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭Batiste


    yep this has been on the agenda for ages,will clear the confusion up somewhat...


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement