Knees behind toes while squating fact or fiction??!

eilo1 · 13-11-2010 02:13PM #1

As the title implie is the "keep your knees behind your toes" while squating a big myth or not.

I demoed a squat infront of a dance instructor and a personal instructor the other day and had my head torn off. I never really gave it much though but surely if your saving your knees from taking the force then it is jsut being loaded onto some other part of the body?>!?!?

So what do people think?

Edwardius · 13-11-2010 02:48PM

1. find a video of a weightlifter squatting, 2. Show it to them.

d'Oracle · 13-11-2010 05:25PM

All squats are not equal.
So it depends on what kind of squat you are doing.

eilo1 · 13-11-2010 05:49PM

just your bogstandard front squat no weight...................

d'Oracle · 13-11-2010 05:59PM

If the knee was back then the bar would have to be forward of the line or else the upperback would need to be absurdly hyperextened.

I don't think its possible to front squat and keep the knee behind the toe.

Maybe if it was really, really wide stance.

brianthebard · 13-11-2010 06:50PM

Confused by the op, were you defending the toes behind the knees or where the people you were talking about?

Brian? · 13-11-2010 07:16PM

eilo1 wrote: »

As the title implie is the "keep your knees behind your toes" while squating a big myth or not.

I demoed a squat infront of a dance instructor and a personal instructor the other day and had my head torn off. I never really gave it much though but surely if your saving your knees from taking the force then it is jsut being loaded onto some other part of the body?>!?!?

So what do people think?

Ask them to do it with a bar without falling backwards and see how they get on.

dartstothesea · 13-11-2010 07:24PM

So, a little bit of in-front-of-the-toes is unavoidable, is that correct? I always try to keep level with toes at least but dunno if I'm really succeeding at that and have had a bit of knee discomfort squatting lately.

Brian? · 13-11-2010 07:29PM

dartstothesea wrote: »

So, a little bit of in-front-of-the-toes is unavoidable, is that correct? I always try to keep level with toes at least but dunno if I'm really succeeding at that and have had a bit of knee discomfort squatting lately.

Read and re read.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:The_Lifts#The_Squat

dartstothesea · 13-11-2010 08:27PM

Ah yeah, I'm more or less doing what I thought I was supposed to be. It's been a little too long since I last read SS.

eilo1 · 13-11-2010 09:52PM

Sorry, to be clear I wasnt really sure what to make of what they where telling me.

I had heard people say "dont let your knees come over your toes when squating". But never really took any notice.

However I know both of the girls are highly qualified in the fitness industry so I was just doubting my own opinions on this.

As far as I am concerned I know I could not squat with out my knees coming over my toes. I was also thinking that if you did keep our knees back that you would be shifting the load onto another joint like your Hip or lumbar spine.

Anyway I sorry for babbling but why are personal trainers being trained to tell people to squat like this?!?!??!?!

squod · 13-11-2010 10:06PM

eilo1 wrote: »

Sorry, to be clear I wasnt really sure what to make of what they where telling me.

I had heard people say "dont let your knees come over your toes when squating". But never really took any notice.

However I know both of the girls are highly qualified in the fitness industry so I was just doubting my own opinions on this.

As far as I am concerned I know I could not squat with out my knees coming over my toes. I was also thinking that if you did keep our knees back that you would be shifting the load onto another joint like your Hip or lumbar spine.

Anyway I sorry for babbling but why are personal trainers being trained to tell people to squat like this?!?!??!?!

They were taught on a smith machine to do quarter squats with lots of weight.

g'em · 13-11-2010 10:11PM

to the best of my knowledge - and I stand to be corrected by someone who designs the training courses - some of the inforamtion provided regarding squatting (and other resistance lifts) is grossly outdated. The whole knees-over-toes thing has long since been disproven in various papers but the en masse fitness industry just hasn't caught up with the science of it yet.

Mickk · 14-11-2010 06:36PM

I thought it was true and thats the way I squat. The way I learned to squat was to wall squat (face the wall with toes about an inch from it and squat), the only way to stop falling over is to bring your knees very wide, it's a sumo squat really I suppose.

Hanley · 14-11-2010 07:36PM

It literally ALL depends on your stance width.

Wide stance - no, cos you'll end up on your toes

Mid to narrow stance - all good in the hood

dartstothesea · 14-11-2010 08:38PM

^I think I just found out exactly that today. In a good way.

squod · 24-11-2010 08:44PM

Actually heard this today from an instructor. I literally could not believe my ears.
True story.

metamorphosis · 24-11-2010 09:38PM

Yeah when i did the NCEF - it was drilled into the class that you should never ever let those knees pass over toes. I was like 'why am i surprised'.

jive · 25-11-2010 03:41AM

i tried squatting with my toes up against the wall and trying to keep my knees from touching the wall - kept falling backwards and any time i managed to do it was dodge to say the least. doing that with a bar on my back would be impossible. i thought ive been squatting incorrectly (even though i have pretty good form imo) for at least a year. good to know that it is impossible and that im not just an uncoordinated tool

BlueIsland · 25-11-2010 10:50AM

Delighted somebody started this thread cos I was only thinking about this at gym last night. I decided in gym i literally cant squat at all!! Im awful. now a HUGE amount of this has got to with flexibility which I working on. But I got so frustrated with not being able keep knees behinds toes I just out 5 kg either side and put a bench behind me. I then did 5 "squats" where i just squatted down to a seating position on bench and then powered back up. They all felt good as squats but my knees were still in front of my toes. I am just resigned to it having to be bull about keeping knees behind toes!

squod · 25-11-2010 11:29AM

Pretty shit at squats meself. Not that I want to start a row here...... This to me is a full squat (bear in mind I'm no PL'er) and I'd imagine most people would agree.

Hanley · 27-11-2010 10:47AM

Doctor14 wrote: »

.

I just find it a bit rich for people to criticise Fitness Instructors and Personal Trainers for not doing x, y or z. Think of your own job - imagine you built a road bridge based on your opinion or something you got off the internet and not the industry standard - imagine the uproar in a law court if you said this after people got injured after your road bridge collapsed?

Imagine building a bridge which you KNOW based on research and evidence is going to eventually collapse and kill people. Because that's what your analogy suggests.

None of this is based on "opinion". It's based on fact. Squatting below parallel, and with your knees going ahead of your toes is NOT dangerous. It's been show over and over again in thousands of lifters. The ones injuring themselves squatting are the ones cutting them high, lifting their heels etc etc

Your "opinion" and argument is both wrong and disingenuous.

Doctor14 · 27-11-2010 04:34PM

Hanley wrote: »

None of this is based on "opinion". It's based on fact. Squatting below parallel, and with your knees going ahead of your toes is NOT dangerous. It's been show over and over again in thousands of lifters. The ones injuring themselves squatting are the ones cutting them high, lifting their heels etc etc

Your "opinion" and argument is both wrong and disingenuous.

It is your argument that is wrong - I never said it was dangerous, I said it was outside industry standards for fitness Instructors and the reason why many won't allow it or teach it.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

SpookyBastard · 27-11-2010 07:10PM

Think the issue, doc, is suggesting that the facts that are not industry standard (i.e knees in front is not dangerous after all) are merely ' based on your opinion or something you got off the internet' and that this bridge would then collapse and you'd be in trouble...

There is an assumption that non industry standard is opinion and also that it is dangerous... unless you suggest a collapsing bridge is not dangerous ?

I see where you're coming from... FIs and PTs following the current accepted rules even if there is strong evidence to suggest that the fitness industry is wrong on this one. From a legal point it is of course better to say 'well, all i did was follow accepted guidlines for squats' but that doesn't make the safety of knees in front just an 'opinion' or 'something you got off the internet'. See what I mean?

Maybe we shouldn't expect much from trainers if there is a real worry that somebody will try to sue them for suggesting that knees in front is ok but at the same time these instructors could defend themselves with the wealth of evidence showing that the accepted standard is incorrect.

Hanley · 27-11-2010 07:20PM

SpookyBastard wrote: »

Think the issue, doc, is suggesting that the facts that are not industry standard (i.e knees in front is not dangerous after all) are merely ' based on your opinion or something you got off the internet' and that this bridge would then collapse and you'd be in trouble...

There is an assumption that non industry standard is opinion and also that it is dangerous... unless you suggest a collapsing bridge is not dangerous ?

I see where you're coming from... FIs and PTs following the current accepted rules even if there is strong evidence to suggest that the fitness industry is wrong on this one. From a legal point it is of course better to say 'well, all i did was follow accepted guidlines for squats' but that doesn't make the safety of knees in front just an 'opinion' or 'something you got off the internet'. See what I mean?

Maybe we shouldn't expect much from trainers if there is a real worry that somebody will try to sue them for suggesting that knees in front is ok but at the same time these instructors could defend themselves with the wealth of evidence showing that the accepted standard is incorrect.

Bingo. Best defence is the truth.

Case goes to court, expert produces studies showing squatting below parallel is not dangerous to the knees, what does the judge do...?

Brian? · 28-11-2010 12:32AM

Doctor14 wrote: »

It is your argument that is wrong - I never said it was dangerous, I said it was outside industry standards for fitness Instructors and the reason why many won't allow it or teach it.

Please stop putting words in my mouth.

The "standards" need to be changes so. Conventional wisdom of any kind needs to be challenged at all times, otherwise we'd still be drilling holes in the heads of the mentally ill to let te demons out.

Knees behind toes while squating fact or fiction??!

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