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VICK as Franchise QB in Philly?

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  • 11-11-2010 3:15pm
    #1
    neilster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭


    Andy Reid can waffle all he wants and he has a difficult situation but if Vick stays injury free and keeps playing the way he is playing and there is a playoff run without a spectacular QB collapse

    what does he do ...assuming he has continued with Vick cos he is the better QB why wouldnt the Birds sign him on a multi-year contract , that would mean a blameless reasonably talented QB in Kolb would pop up on the market .

    remember Reid approached Jeff Lurie the Philly owner with the Vick idea ...admired him from afar in Atlanta ..and thought if i could make this guy a pocket passer i would have BigBen with passing/scrambling crossed with Carl Lewis

    Maybe he is craftily allowing Vick to silence any argument ...but i cant see how they allow him walk


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    #2
    frostie500
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭frostie500


    I cant see Vick leaving Phillie at the end of the season. Kolb is good(and we should be able to get some trade value for him) but Vick has shown this year that he is an elite QB.

    In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he took a lower offer from the Eagles compared to what he could get elsewhere to stay with a franchise that give him his second chance-its also helped by having a young offence loaded with weapons at all the skill positions.

    There's no chance he leaves to go to a team that features comparable talent to the likes of McCoy, Jackson, Maclin and Celek and has Avant and Cooper as supporting recievers. The Eagles are built for success for the next five years and Vick must have a burning desire to be great at this stage in his life. He's had the wealth and knows the risks of that path so I'd be amazed if he left.

    It's a shame for Kolb but he has a bright future in this league and dont be surprised if he becomes the next Matt Schaub


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    #3
    Prefab Sprouter
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Prefab Sprouter


    Theres no denying that Vick has turned his career around and well done to the Eagles on taking a chance with him. It has turned out very well. Kolb might be another Schaub but will he get a chance?


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    #4
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    If Vick leads the team deep into the playoffs he will be resigned I suspect.

    The team hasnt fully committed to Kolb yet hes only got a deal through next year so its possible Vick could be signed to a deal.

    What do you do with Kolb then ? Vick isnt the youngest and you need to have a capable franchise QB for the future. Ive not see enough of Kofta to say if he can be groomed to be this or not.

    No way can they sign Kolb & Vick to multi year deals the expense of doing so would cripple the team so its not a straightford situation.

    Sign em both and then trade one I guess but whos going to want to sign knowing they could be shipped to any number of terrible teams


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    #5
    Peyton Manning
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,658 ✭✭✭✭Peyton Manning


    frostie500 wrote: »
    Vick has shown this year that he is an elite QB.

    You and I obviously have different definitions of the word elite.


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    #6
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    D3PO wrote: »
    If Ive not see enough of Kofta to say if he can be groomed to be this or not.

    lol guess Im hungry of course I meant Kafka :D


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    #7
    frostie500
    Registered Users Posts: 3,444 ✭✭✭frostie500


    Archimedes wrote: »
    You and I obviously have different definitions of the word elite.

    Come on Archie, when Vick has played the Eagles offence has looked as good as anything in the league. He is making plays with his arm and his legs. He is completing 60% of his throws, leading the league in QB rating, hasnt thrown an interception, averaging 8.1 yards per pass attempt and 7 yards per carry. Of the games he has started the only loss is the Washington game that he left injured.

    Vick isnt the same QB that played in Atlanta and while he still puts his body at risk there is little doubt that he is one of the most dangerous QBs in the league right now. Apart from Brady, Manning and Rivers who do have as being above Vick?


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    #8
    neilster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭neilster


    Archimedes wrote: »
    You and I obviously have different definitions of the word elite.

    I think you are plain wrong here and the board is reflecting that ..he is very seriously in the MVP hunt this season ...Rivers to lose at this point tho

    VICK
    His QB rating is 105 a career high for a Championship Game participant
    his best at Atlanta was 81
    Completion percentage is a high 60%
    No Interceptions thats a zero
    14 sacks

    MANNING /BRADY

    QB Rating 96 95.7
    Comp % 65 63
    Int 4 4
    Sacks 10 13


    His team are 5-3 largely on his back ...watch the fourth quarter when he moved up into the pocket in the last game and saved a difficult series with a breakout rushing gain and basically sealed the match when it appeared very tight ...whilst we can speculate on Vick those who get paid for this for a living and can live and die by the sword if they fail ...will look at Vick and resign him to a bumper contract based on what i have described ...we can look back to Atlanta ...we can allow the dogfighting to blind us to 2010 but Andy Reid knows and Kevin Kolb knows i think

    Kolb could land in Arizona / Carolina at this point ...Arizona wont have a very high draft pick and may see this a cheaper solution ..you could mention Washington , Seattle too. He will have his fans as its a difficult situation for Kolb when Vick is blowing the doors off


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    #9
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    So we crown players elite now after only a handful of games? Vick has shown throughout his whole career that he is an average Quarter. A few very good games doesn't make him elite or even close to it.


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    #10
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    lads put your handbags away.

    Is Vick an elite QB - No based on his career body of work

    Is he playing at an elite level right now - Yes this season he is playing at an elite level

    Everybody is happy . Now whos for a group hug ?


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    #11
    Eire-Dearg
    Registered Users Posts: 8,900 ✭✭✭Eire-Dearg


    D3PO wrote: »
    lads put your handbags away.

    Is Vick an elite QB - No based on his career body of work

    Is he playing at an elite level right now - Yes this season he is playing at an elite level

    Everybody is happy . Now whos for a group hug ?
    128985863600949143.jpg


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    #12
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    Vick an elite QB?

    picard-facepalm.jpg

    As others have said over the course of his career he is not an elite QB. He has had his great moments but nowhere near elite.

    The next question is he having a season that is reflecting that of an Elite QB? Sure if he pulls off a whole season playing the same after the handful of games he has had so far, sure why not. But it would take more than 1 season of elite quality play to put him in that category because the rest of his career to date contradicts this season.


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    #13
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    This is like the Ryan Fitzpatrick thing all over again.

    Vick is playing exceptionally well so far this season in the games he has played which is 6 I think.

    He really hasn't done anything like this before and really until he makes the playoffs and proves he has the stones when it counts I won't rate him very highly. And even at that, one season does not make you an elite QB. He would have to come back and do the same thing again next year.


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    #14
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    eagle eye wrote: »
    This is like the Ryan Fitzpatrick thing all over again.

    How is it? No one made such claims about Ryan Fitzpatrick.


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    #15
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    How is it? No one made such claims about Ryan Fitzpatrick.

    I'll tell you how its the same, you got people raving about a QB after a couple of games.


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    #16
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I'll tell you how its the same, you got people raving about a QB after a couple of games.

    Firstly 8 games in. 50% of the regular season.

    This again. Let me ask you this at what point is acceptable for you for people to be able to form their own opinion of a player?

    Personally I believe that after 8 games if Ryan Fitzpatrick continue on the same path and continues to gain more experience as a starter and putting up good numbers in a **** team he can be a solid starter. Sure he might not but my own opinion based on what I have seen of him so far shows me he has potential.

    Personally with Vick I see him as nothing more than a good QB who is having an excellent start to the 2010 season. Confidence is up and he is making the most of his starts and it shows his fight for a regular starting spot is making him raise his game. He still has a lot to prove before ever getting a sniff in the elite circle.

    But for you to say we cannot make our own opinion of a player based on what we have seen so far is a bit mad. I don't think anyone said Fitzy was excellent right away. Most eluded to him playing well and hoping he can keep it up. But someone actually did say Vick was an Elite QB which is their opinion but many will disagree with it.


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    #17
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    Firstly 8 games in. 50% of the regular season.

    This again. Let me ask you this at what point is acceptable for you for people to be able to form their own opinion of a player?

    Personally I believe that after 8 games if Ryan Fitzpatrick continue on the same path and continues to gain more experience as a starter and putting up good numbers in a **** team he can be a solid starter. Sure he might not but my own opinion based on what I have seen of him so far shows me he has potential.

    Personally with Vick I see him as nothing more than a good QB who is having an excellent start to the 2010 season. Confidence is up and he is making the most of his starts and it shows his fight for a regular starting spot is making him raise his game. He still has a lot to prove before ever getting a sniff in the elite circle.

    But for you to say we cannot make our own opinion of a player based on what we have seen so far is a bit mad. I don't think anyone said Fitzy was excellent right away. Most eluded to him playing well and hoping he can keep it up. But someone actually did say Vick was an Elite QB which is their opinion but many will disagree with it.

    And since that Ravens game which is when the Fitzpatrick thing started he has had two pretty poor performances. His QB rating is now at 85.8 for the season which is very average. And I wouldn't be suprised if it got worse.

    With Vick he has the top QB rating in the league right now but I'd personally be surprised if that lasts.


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    #18
    tommyboyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭tommyboyle


    The talk in Philly mirrors this thread. Everyone is loving what he has been doing but it is such a small sampling. The theories here point to waiting a little longer in the season and then resigning him. This would be a great spot for his future. The oline will be back in full next year and he has all the young weapons around. Mccoy will be another westbrook. I cant say enough about maclin and djack. And he is on the record as saying andy reid and marty m. have transformed him as a qb. Minnesota would be a great place for kolb. Especially if chilly keeps his job, since him and andy are so tight.


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    #19
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    eagle eye wrote: »
    His QB rating is now at 85.8 for the season which is very average. And I wouldn't be suprised if it got worse.

    I have a feeling it is going to be another agree to disagree type argument. I will say that stats aside and the fact the Bills are sh1t from what I see in Fitzy as a football fan, a coach and a player of the game is a player with potential. For a guy carrying the weight of a ****e team on his shoulders and pulling off "very average" numbers to me is a guy with potential to be a solid starter. If you don't agree with me fair enough.

    I will say though when it comes to talking about QBs and don't take this personally but in the modern game you only seem to ever fought in defense of Tom Brady and Tim Tebow if there are any others there wasn't many more. If I am wrong I do apologise in advance. But I would love to know what qualities you base your opinion on when someone says a guy like fitzy has the qualities right now to grow into a decent NFL starter.


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    #20
    tommyboyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭tommyboyle


    I was always prejudiced to think you want an ivy league doctor and a state college qb but fitzy is making me wonder. In a league of super hyped draft picks he is holding his own. Imagine the difference he would make in san fran. Or if he was the backup in dallas. He would look like a pretty good starter.


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    #21
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I'm not continuing with this any longer except to answer one question. And thats what I see in QBs that I like. Two things, great leadership and making good decisions consistently.

    Fitzpatrick has not been making good decisions in his last two games and thats much like last year where he looked great in some games and poor in others.

    The likes of Brady, Brees, Manning very rarely make a bad decision and thats what sets them apart. You go through all the starters in the league and you will see that I rate them based mainly on that. Brady has the odd stinker, its a one every two years type thing with him, same with Brees and Manning in the playoffs.

    The very best to me are the ones that continue to do this in high pressure playoff games. You see the likes of Rivers who is great in regular season games but when he hits the playoffs he starts making bad decisions.

    I think the quote by Gruden about Tebow says all I think about the guy. I do believe he will make it because the guy is a born winner. He has shown in college that he is a clutch player. It remains to be seen if I'm right about that but when Josh McDaniels who imo is an outstanding offensive coach decides to take him in the first round it speaks volumes to me. We shall see over the coming years how this story unfolds.


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    #22
    tommyboyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭tommyboyle


    I dont see how anyone would compare fitz to the upper echelon. There is a vast difference between the top dogs and the guys at the bottom. I do think that fitz does fit in the middle somewhere.


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    #23
    neilster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭neilster


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    How is it? No one made such claims about Ryan Fitzpatrick.

    I kind of get both what you say and eagle says .... no-one mentioned Fitzy as elite but i have to take my hat off to him ..he is an upgrade on what was there before ..he has improved and i would doubt Bills will look for a QB in the draft

    As to Vick its obvious that he is playing unlike he did in Atlanta ...his stats are way up ..and the sample is small but he certainly has convinced A Reid who is who he needs to convince

    And Chucky his highest QB rating in Georgia was 81 in 2004 ..its now a league highest at 105

    Is it my imagination or are people not watching those 6 weeks at all or are they unwilling to praise Vick ...definitely its half way throught the season ...Vick will be a free agent in 8 weeks time or slightly longer and id say its definitely an issue in the Eagles front office at present


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    #24
    tommyboyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭tommyboyle


    If vick's play continues at this level there is no way he will ever see free agency. I feel bad for kolb but if this vick is for real, he will stay here for a long time


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    #25
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    eagle eye wrote: »

    The likes of Brady, Brees, Manning very rarely make a bad decision and thats what sets them apart. You go through all the starters in the league and you will see that I rate them based mainly on that. Brady has the odd stinker, its a one every two years type thing with him, same with Brees and Manning in the playoffs.

    The very best to me are the ones that continue to do this in high pressure playoff games. You see the likes of Rivers who is great in regular season games but when he hits the playoffs he starts making bad decisions.


    So you base every QB on the elite bunch then? Thought so. You see the problem lies in that no one said Fitzy would be elite or the best of the best or the very best. Whats wrong with saying a QB can have a good career in the NFL without having to be the best? For me there is many types of QBs. Elite being the top. Not every QB can be in that category and not every QB will be good enough to be in that category.

    Elite: Best of the Best, Guys who can make average teams look great and win Superbowls

    Excellent: Guys who consistently put up excellent numbers but they cant punch it in when it matters in the playoffs and need help from other winners around them to do it.

    Solid Starters: Guys who will be a long term NFL starter who continually put up good numbers but can get unlucky and be on teams that are woeful. But give them more than enough game winners on either side of the ball and you never now they could get it done.

    Average at best: Guys on the fringe of sh1t and solid. Doesnt matter what you give them they choke more often than not.

    Sh1t: Ryan Leaf, JeMarcuss Russell, Enter many different QBs here.

    My point being not every QB will be great doesn't mean we can't turn around and say they have potential to fit in a category above and make a good career for themselves in the NFL. How awesome would the league be if it was full of the same type of QBs that the elite guys are.


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    #26
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,866 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »
    So you base every QB on the elite bunch then? Thought so.
    No I don't rate them all based on the elite bunch. I rate them by how many mistakes they make and how they lead their team.

    You could have a time where there is no elite QB in the NFL as unlikely as that is to happen.

    As I said those three have set themselves apart from the rest through consistency and years of it.

    There is no way that Vick is an elite QB right now. And by the same token there is no way that Ryan Fitzpatrick belongs even in the solid starter category. He has to prove he belongs there by showing 'solid starter' consistency. I reckon based on what I seen of him both last year and this year that he will not make it to the solid starter level. He just makes too many mistakes to hold down a starting job.


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    #27
    neilster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭neilster


    eagle eye wrote: »
    I'll tell you how its the same, you got people raving about a QB after a couple of games.

    Fitzy always causes arguments everytime ....


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    #28
    tallaghtoutlaws
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,067 ✭✭✭tallaghtoutlaws


    eagle eye wrote: »
    There is no way that Vick is an elite QB right now. And by the same token there is no way that Ryan Fitzpatrick belongs even in the solid starter category. He has to prove he belongs there by showing 'solid starter' consistency. I reckon based on what I seen of him both last year and this year that he will not make it to the solid starter level. He just makes too many mistakes to hold down a starting job.

    I never said he belongs there right now but I do believe he will get there. That is all I wanted and All of that arguing to finally get your opinion on him so on that stance we will agree to disagree on how we will think Fitzy will end up. Only time will tell. :D

    As for Vick I frankly don't care about him. Sure he is playing well right now but I don't believe also that he will ever be elite.


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    #29
    tommyboyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭tommyboyle


    Why wont vick ever be elite? I know he's not now but he still could be. His age could be a factor against him, once he loses the treat of his legs players will defend him different. What about Romo? Can he ever be elite?


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    #30
    D3PO
    Registered Users Posts: 7,879 ✭✭✭D3PO


    tommyboyle wrote: »
    Why wont vick ever be elite? I know he's not now but he still could be. His age could be a factor against him, once he loses the treat of his legs players will defend him different. What about Romo? Can he ever be elite?

    nobody has said he cant ever be elite but you have to base judgement on what he has done so far.

    Im loving what hes done this season as a fellow Eagles fan. Hes winning games for the team that are beat up to bits on the O Line and would probably have a losing record right now with most of the starters in the league under centre.

    Fact is one swallow doesnt make a summer. I was a big McNaab fan and he did a heck of a lot for the team over a long period, but at the same time he never won the big dance.

    If Vick wants talk of being an elite QB hes going to have to

    1. Win us a superbowl
    2. Get us season after season into the playoffs
    3. Win us a second superbowl

    Can he do it ? Yes perhaps but hes a long way off elite status.

    As for Romo for me he makes too many bad decisions to ever approach elite status, he chokes in the big games and will never be more than a good QB. Results speak for themselves could be end up as a multiple superbowl winning QB ? Perhaps I doubt it though.


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    #31
    neilster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 719 ✭✭✭neilster


    D3PO wrote: »
    nobody has said he cant ever be elite but you have to base judgement on what he has done so far.

    Im loving what hes done this season as a fellow Eagles fan. Hes winning games for the team that are beat up to bits on the O Line and would probably have a losing record right now with most of the starters in the league under centre.

    Fact is one swallow doesnt make a summer. I was a big McNaab fan and he did a heck of a lot for the team over a long period, but at the same time he never won the big dance.

    If Vick wants talk of being an elite QB hes going to have to

    1. Win us a superbowl
    2. Get us season after season into the playoffs
    3. Win us a second superbowl

    Can he do it ? Yes perhaps but hes a long way off elite status.

    As for Romo for me he makes too many bad decisions to ever approach elite status, he chokes in the big games and will never be more than a good QB. Results speak for themselves could be end up as a multiple superbowl winning QB ? Perhaps I doubt it though.

    I myself thing of elite as a level of performance ...95plus QB rating ....low interceptions...high completion percentage ....high yardage per catch and yardage totals

    Then if the person does that season after season ..they have moved into a top echelon ...someone spoke of three ..brees manning brady

    but Rivers is way ahead of anyone this season and has been, he will pass Marino at this rate ...last season was a Career year for him as well ...but people dont put him there cos of the rings ...that argument was put out there about marino and wasnt right then or now

    as to Vick it is elite level performace but its early but if Philly resign him which i expect unless an injury happens which is a bigger risk with Vick that will be our answer

    I think may be more posters whilst admitting its early would have to see there is a transformation in Vick and that is down to Andy Reid..Reid hatched this when Vick was still locked up and it looks like it may work out


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