VICK as Franchise QB in Philly?

neilster

tallaghtoutlaws wrote: »

So you base every QB on the elite bunch then? Thought so. You see the problem lies in that no one said Fitzy would be elite or the best of the best or the very best. Whats wrong with saying a QB can have a good career in the NFL without having to be the best? For me there is many types of QBs. Elite being the top. Not every QB can be in that category and not every QB will be good enough to be in that category.

Elite: Best of the Best, Guys who can make average teams look great and win Superbowls

Excellent: Guys who consistently put up excellent numbers but they cant punch it in when it matters in the playoffs and need help from other winners around them to do it.

Solid Starters: Guys who will be a long term NFL starter who continually put up good numbers but can get unlucky and be on teams that are woeful. But give them more than enough game winners on either side of the ball and you never now they could get it done.

Average at best: Guys on the fringe of sh1t and solid. Doesnt matter what you give them they choke more often than not.

Sh1t: Ryan Leaf, JeMarcuss Russell, Enter many different QBs here.

My point being not every QB will be great doesn't mean we can't turn around and say they have potential to fit in a category above and make a good career for themselves in the NFL. How awesome would the league be if it was full of the same type of QBs that the elite guys are.

Chad Pennington is an interesting and topical guy at the minute from this point of view .. he has always been very accurate ...perfect game manager ...weak arm means he cant open up the whole playbook or the complete vertical threat but in the intermediate throws and moving the chains , perfect guy ... this would have a limit on his ranking amongst his peers ....but would someone rather a Pennington or a "wild thing " like Cutler...huge arm but no use if turnovers pileup

frostie500

Have to say I didnt expect this many posts in relation to me saying Vick was elite!

I'm going to admit that I was drinking quite alot of the kool-aid yesterday and everyone is right to say that his body of work to date doesnt make him elite(apart from 2004 when he led the Falcons to the NFC championship game Vick was a highlight reel and not a true leader/force for his team) but I can't help but feel that he is making unbelievable progress with the Eagles.

I'm going to change my stance and say that his form this year is at an elite level but with the players around the Eagles he has the potential to be an elite QB. In the past he was all about making plays with his legs but this year he is making them with his arm. He has one of the strongest arms in the league but with the Eagles he is really starting to become an accurate passer.

To be honest from listening to Andy Reid and Eagles staff it is clear that the biggest change in Vick is his work ethic. He is spending time in the film room and the weight room, he is doing all the right things to become elite and show that all the talents that made him a number 1 pick are still evident. Combing this with his improved skillset he is showing that he is a franchise QB for the EAgles.

neilster

frostie500 wrote: »

Have to say I didnt expect this many posts in relation to me saying Vick was elite!

I'm going to admit that I was drinking quite alot of the kool-aid yesterday and everyone is right to say that his body of work to date doesnt make him elite(apart from 2004 when he led the Falcons to the NFC championship game Vick was a highlight reel and not a true leader/force for his team) but I can't help but feel that he is making unbelievable progress with the Eagles.

I'm going to change my stance and say that his form this year is at an elite level but with the players around the Eagles he has the potential to be an elite QB. In the past he was all about making plays with his legs but this year he is making them with his arm. He has one of the strongest arms in the league but with the Eagles he is really starting to become an accurate passer.

To be honest from listening to Andy Reid and Eagles staff it is clear that the biggest change in Vick is his work ethic. He is spending time in the film room and the weight room, he is doing all the right things to become elite and show that all the talents that made him a number 1 pick are still evident. Combing this with his improved skillset he is showing that he is a franchise QB for the EAgles.

This is the point you make that the board i think needs to notice ....an accurate arm as a 105 rating suggests .. a low interception rate at 4 and winning results means Vick is getting it done at a high level as a pocket passer .......not a runner/scrambler ....as a pocket passer

but he is still relatively young with since 06 very low mileage on the clock and when things get tight it is the scrambling ability that is deadly , he really is late 20s age-wise when you factor in his absence

I often think this explains BigBen in the playoffs and SuperBowls ...maddening at times...holding on too long ...getting sacked during the season ...but in a playoff game its not about stats ...his scrambling ability makes things happen ..Elway had it as well ...its those last inches and completions ...2 minute drills ... overtime etc when that play from nothing makes the difference.. a real 4th quarter QB

i think Vicks pocket ability allied to what he always had can put him amongst the top guys

people bring up the 4th quarter against the Colts ...it was tight but the deciding factor was a couple of things Vick Made happen

tallaghtoutlaws

neilster wrote: »

This is the point you make that the board i think needs to notice ....an accurate arm as a 105 rating suggests .. a low interception rate at 4 and winning results means Vick is getting it done at a high level as a pocket passer .......not a runner/scrambler ....as a pocket passer

No one is debating the fact that Vick isn't playing at a high level right now. In fact most realise that. But based on his whole career he is not an Elite QB. Now it is clear Reid is doing something right and getting the best out of Vick but we are only half way through the season and Vick has only played 5 games. Consistency is key for him here because the NFL season is a marathon and not a sprint. He also needs to get to the playoffs and show he can get it done in there to prove us all wrong. If he continues to go on the way he is playing and gets to the playoffs and wins games in there you may see some people change their views on him.

Sure he is playing at an elite level right now but lets see how the season pans out before we say he is already there when we refer to his career.

tommyboyle

If the eagles do fail this season,ie no playoffs or first round blowout, it wont be vick. Our d is horrid at times and the oline will have more bad games. Just a mattter of when. Jimmy Johnson's successor has certainley disappointedd so far.

raven136

ah sure we all know there is only 2 elite QB's in the league so lets hijack another thread and turn into a Brady/Manning contest again :rolleyes:

Has Vick been much better than anyone thought?Hell yes

Is he throwing better than many if not all other than Rivers,yes again.

And if he leads the eagles upwards all season like this and again next season will he have reached elite level,you would have to say yes.

How can anyone look at him this season and not simply admire coming out of jail and changing hsi game around,not just running but passing is excellent now too.

tallaghtoutlaws

raven136 wrote: »

ah sure we all know there is only 2 elite QB's in the league so lets hijack another thread and turn into a Brady/Manning contest again :rolleyes:

Has Vick been much better than anyone thought?Hell yes

Is he throwing better than many if not all other than Rivers,yes again.

And if he leads the eagles upwards all season like this and again next season will he have reached elite level,you would have to say yes.

How can anyone look at him this season and not simply admire coming out of jail and changing hsi game around,not just running but passing is excellent now too.

If you take out the smartass bits in your post you are actually echoing what most are thinking and saying. Yet again no one is denying how well Vick is playing and most are saying if he continues down this road and keeps performing he could put himself up there. But again we are only half way through the season so lets not get ahead of ourselves.

raven136 wrote: »

ah sure we all know there is only 2 elite QB's in the league so lets hijack another thread and turn into a Brady/Manning contest again :rolleyes:

What was the point of this? Manning and Brady were mentioned once in the thread. But to throw a spanner in your works many consider Drew Brees elite including a lot of Pats and Colts fans so I don't get the need for your trying to be funny/smart ass opening. If anyone is bringing the thread down that route it is you by mentioning it in the first place.

tommyboyle

There is not a person on this thread who is bad mouthing vick. I and I assume others are taking a wait and see approach before we say he is the real deal. My feeling is that he probably is and needs to be resigned but even the eagles are waiting to resign him. His body of work is like 5 games. I pray that he is real.

neilster

raven136 wrote: »

ah sure we all know there is only 2 elite QB's in the league so lets hijack another thread and turn into a Brady/Manning contest again :rolleyes:

Has Vick been much better than anyone thought?Hell yes

Is he throwing better than many if not all other than Rivers,yes again.

And if he leads the eagles upwards all season like this and again next season will he have reached elite level,you would have to say yes.

How can anyone look at him this season and not simply admire coming out of jail and changing hsi game around,not just running but passing is excellent now too.

as others have said it is early days but he is heading for a special season if he keeps this up

but remember maybe in 01-04 he coasted on his athletc ability ..not watching film..not doing the gym work and relying on talent alone ...he also showed in flashes a strong arm and accuracy but it was interspersed with low accuracy and indecision ....i know that in articles since he left Atlanta fans did talk about his tendency to take only 1 check down and then gallop ...often for a 1st down cos of his ability but where maybe big throws went begging ...a nightmare for some of his recievers

So maybe this is just the culmination of doing things right along with what he left Virginia Tech with and becoming a proper pocket passer like he should have always done with the added bonus of all that athletic ability ..i love watching it cos its so unpredictable

neilster

After a magical night for Michael Vick what now to the debate on his level of play and potential long-term contract ....$100m over 4 years with $60m guaranteed ??? anyone judging by McNabb

He is a free agent in summer and with new CBA may not be afranchise player so they may Have to get deal done or hit market





"

On a night when Donovan McNabb signed a potential $78 million extension with the Redskins, Eagles counterpart Michael Vick played like the quarterback more deserving of a megadeal.
Vick was virtually flawless in leading Philadelphia to a 59-28 rain-soaked victory at FedEx Field. He completed 20 of 28 passes for 333 yards and four touchdowns, rushed eight times for 80 yards and two scores and helped the Eagles set franchise highs for total yards (592) and points in a half (45). Their 28-0 lead at the end of the first quarter was the largest for a road team since at least 1950. Vick's performance was so brilliant -- he became the first player in NFL history with at least 300 yards passing, 50 yards rushing, four passing touchdowns and two rushing touchdowns in a game -- that it overshadowed McNabb's new deal and turned up the volume among those questioning whether the Redskins traded for the wrong Eagles QB in April.
Here's what we learned from Monday night:
1. McNabb's five-year extension, which according to ESPN includes $40 million in guarantees, makes no sense as currently outlined. McNabb is in his 12th season, will be 39 in the final year of the deal and has struggled to adjust to new coach Mike Shanahan's system. Two weeks ago, Shanahan humiliated McNabb by benching him against the Lions, then telling the media that McNabb did not have a handle on the two-minute offense and lacked the "cardiovascular endurance" to run it. Now he's worth $40 million guaranteed?
2. The knee-jerk reaction is to rip the Redskins, but doing so would be reckless and unwarranted -- until we see the fine print. If the pact allows the Redskins to walk away within two of three years, at a cost far less than what has been reported, it's easier to understand the deal. But if the Redskins, who have major offensive holes along the line, along with wide receiver and running back, can't void the contract or release McNabb without serious financial consequence, then allocating major dollars to an aging signal-caller will prove to be one of the worst decisions of the Shanahan era. As it is, McNabb is on pace for his worst year since his rookie season (1999).
3. Vick is better than he was during his Pro Bowl years in Atlanta. He still possesses great mobility; but at 30 years old, he looks more comfortable and confident in the pocket. You can see him going through his read progressions rather than scrambling downfield if his first receiver is covered.
At one point early in the second quarter, Vick had completed all nine of his passes for 229 yards and three scores, with one touchdown rushing. He threw from the pocket, on designed bootlegs and at the end of scrambles. Who'd have thought that, nine weeks into a season, we'd find Vick as the league's top-rated passer, at 115.1? Yet there he sits, ahead of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees and all the other established "passers". More impressive, Vick has yet to throw an interception since joining the Eagles last year. That's 166 consecutive attempts and counting. Vick is scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent in 2011. If McNabb is worth $78 million over five years, we can only guess what Vick, who is five years younger, will command on the open market. The Eagles better hope the franchise tag is part of the new collective bargaining agreement"


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jim_trotter/11/16/eagles.skins.insider/index.html#ixzz15S8lPDJ9

Neil3030

Another solid if unspectacular night from Vick. Whatever about being an elite QB (far too early in his ressurection to tell), he is putting up impressive numbers and may well lead this Eagles team to a Superbowl appearance.

D3PO

Neil3030 wrote: »

Another solid if unspectacular night from Vick. Whatever about being an elite QB (far too early in his ressurection to tell), he is putting up impressive numbers and may well lead this Eagles team to a Superbowl appearance.

again the key last night no interceptions thrown. However I think teams will look at the film though and see how the pass rush / blitz caused him some issues expecialy when he had to roll right out of the pocket.

Mind you only for a few dropped catches (how in the world did Avant drop his one !! ) he could have had another 300 yard 2td game with no ints.

The next few weeks will tell me a lot though. How teams make adjustments after seeing last night will say a lot about his possible long term production.

frostie500

D3PO wrote: »

Mind you only for a few dropped catches (how in the world did Avant drop his one !! ) he could have had another 300 yard 2td game with no ints

Yeah in the second quarter if Jackson and Avant both should have made their catches in the endzone and Jackson also should have caught the one down the left sideline for a TD. If those plays are completed Vick has a 4 TD game and another 300 yard outing.

The pressure the Giants put on him was impressive and while I'm sure teams will try and replicate it in future there arent many teams with the defensive abilities of the Giants and the Philie coaches will also be working on ways to improve how Vick deals with such pressure in future. His two fumbles though were quite worrying, throughout the year we have seen him keep the ball high, the first fumble especially had echoes of his Atlanta days.

Syferus

There's a difference between preforming at an elite level and being considered almost universally to be an elite player. Vick has a good line and even for every time last night that the Giants broke through there was another two where he had as much time as he liked sitting in the pocket. Vick has the pieces to suceed in Philly.

Elite is probably the most over used term in all of american football - this is elite, that's not elite, he could be elite, he'll never be elite. The fact is it's a very subjective term and it means different things to different people.

Anyone of a good level can be hugely effective in the NFL given the right circumstances and Vick still is among the best performers this season. Trying to forecast what'll happen in two, three years with almost any player is more fraught with problems than trying to tell what the weather will be like in three years time.

D3PO

Syferus wrote: »

Elite is probably the most over used term in all of american football - .

Did you see Ryan Fitzpatrick last night ? He was so Elite :p:D:D

neilster

Syferus wrote: »

There's a difference between preforming at an elite level and being considered almost universally to be an elite player. Vick has a good line and even for every time last night that the Giants broke through there was another two where he had as much time as he liked sitting in the pocket. Vick has the pieces to suceed in Philly.

Elite is probably the most over used term in all of american football - this is elite, that's not elite, he could be elite, he'll never be elite. The fact is it's a very subjective term and it means different things to different people.

Anyone of a good level can be hugely effective in the NFL given the right circumstances and Vick still is among the best performers this season. Trying to forecast what'll happen in two, three years with almost any player is more fraught with problems than trying to tell what the weather will be like in three years time.

Thats a good pass rush in NYG, another interception night when Brady & manning both had giveaways .....Elite is overused but if Vick continues like this into the playoffs ....he will be elite ...word Philly will sign him ahead of the playoffs so they definitley know what they are getting

neilster

neilster wrote: »

I myself thing of elite as a level of performance ...95plus QB rating ....low interceptions...high completion percentage ....high yardage per catch and yardage totals

Then if the person does that season after season ..they have moved into a top echelon ...someone spoke of three ..brees manning brady

but Rivers is way ahead of anyone this season and has been, he will pass Marino at this rate ...last season was a Career year for him as well ...but people dont put him there cos of the rings ...that argument was put out there about marino and wasnt right then or now

as to Vick it is elite level performace but its early but if Philly resign him which i expect unless an injury happens which is a bigger risk with Vick that will be our answer

I think may be more posters whilst admitting its early would have to see there is a transformation in Vick and that is down to Andy Reid..Reid hatched this when Vick was still locked up and it looks like it may work out

you were at this stcick before the skins game .....it was a 300yrds , 2td game with no int. he is playing very well and will be in philly in 2011

and you should thank A REID