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Wearing of the Poppy! Should Irish citizens wear it?

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Comments

  • #152
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I really don't think you are in a position to criticise to be honest.

    When unable to intercept ball, play man?

    If my name was Adolph Von BlitzenBomben and I was writing this from the comfort of my air-conditioned panzer in argentina, how would what I said be any less true?


  • #153
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    i don't think people should be forced to wear it, and I'm not buying this whole, 'it's for the Irish who died too'. It's a british symbol of remembrance, always has been. It may be that during the times when the Irish didn't like to think of their grandfathers fighting in the British Army and so we didn't join in with the poppy wearing when it first started, but we have our own National Day of Commemoration and that's that.

    Poppy wearing is nothing to do with the Irish, it is a British/Commonwealth tradition. As some one else said in the thread, it's nothing but a fashion accessory now.


  • #154
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    When unable to intercept ball, play man?

    If my name was Adolph Von BlitzenBomben and I was writing this from the comfort of my air-conditioned panzer in argentina, how would what I said be any less true?

    Not so much playing the man, as pointing out his own hypocrisy. you openly support an organisation that practiced murder, torture, rape and drug dealing so in my book that means that you are in no position to criticise.


  • #155
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Not so much (.......) criticise.

    'Cry 'LOOK AT THIS' and unleash the red herrings of war'?

    The fact is that buying a poppy supports those who were involved in the war of aggression in Iraq, those who suppressed the nationalist population in NI, who suppressed the independence movements in India, Kenya, Aden and elsewhere. It's thus supporting the instrument of empire and imperialism.


  • #156
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    There were 50,000 British soldiers involved in the invasion of Iraq and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the war, the vast vast majority of them did their job well and to the book. I wear a poppy to support them.

    there are 10,000 British soldiers in Afghanistan at the moment. This is a war that has the full backing of the UN and is supported by, amongst others, the Republic of Ireland. Again, the vast vast majority of soldiers out there are doing their job well and with honour.

    In WWI alone, 750,000 conscripted British service men were killed and a further 1,700,000 were injured. I wear a poppy to remember them and the hundreds of thousands fighting the worst tyranny the world has seen, the Nazis.

    If you want to cherry pick fine, but to not remember and support the many because of the actions by the few is, in my opinion, disrespectful.

    I lok at this from a different perspective, i admit and i would never wear an easter lilly, but i can understand why people do and I would not criticise someone for it.


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  • #157
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    'Cry 'LOOK AT THIS' and unleash the red herrings of war'?

    The fact is that buying a poppy supports those who were involved in the war of aggression in Iraq, those who suppressed the nationalist population in NI, who suppressed the independence movements in India, Kenya, Aden and elsewhere. It's thus supporting the instrument of empire and imperialism.

    I look forward to easter and slagging off your lot for wearing a Lilly.


  • #158
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    There were 50,000 British soldiers involved in the invasion of Iraq and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the war, the vast vast majority of them did their job well and to the book. I wear a poppy to support them...



    ....going about their business in an unjustifiable war, supporting aggression. Goodie for you.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    In WWI alone, 750,000 conscripted British service men were killed and a further 1,700,000 were injured. I wear a poppy to remember them and the hundreds of thousands fighting the worst tyranny the world has seen, the Nazis..

    ...but it doesn't just go to remember WW1 or II.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If you want to cherry pick fine, but to not remember and support the many because of the actions by the few is, in my opinion, disrespectful.
    ..

    The actions of a few? Didn't you just say "There were 50,000 British soldiers involved in the invasion of Iraq "

    Wasn't it British policy to keep India as part of the Empire?

    Wasn't it British policy to keep Kenya as part of the Empire?

    Wasn't it British policy to keep Burma as part of the Empire?

    Wasn't it British policy to keep Aden as part of the Empire?


  • #159
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Nodin wrote: »
    This week, on 'Where your poppy money goes....'


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/08/servicemen-uk-abu-ghraib-court-iraq

    british soldiers in war crime shocker!!


  • #160
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    aDeener wrote: »
    british soldiers in war crime shocker!!

    'Nation Stunned at Ungrateful Natives Being Beaten'


  • #161
    Seloth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭Seloth


    Im quite confused as too why we wouldnt wear the green poppy.

    WW1 also seems too be a,well hushed subject for our history cause we were in the "Empire" at that stage..lads get if yer high horses,its for remembering dead Irish people who fell during one of the worst and largest wars in history..Not a feckin unionist symbol.

    They wear it in the US,India,Australia,Canada...theres noo hooey over there.


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  • #162
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Seloth wrote: »
    Im quite confused as too why we wouldnt wear the green poppy.

    WW1 also seems too be a,well hushed subject for our history cause we were in the "Empire" at that stage..lads get if yer high horses,its for remembering dead Irish people who fell during one of the worst and largest wars in history..Not a feckin unionist symbol.

    They wear it in the US,India,Australia,Canada...theres noo hooey over there.

    These are both current and ex colonies and like ourselves India suffered greatly because of the British.

    The US were Allied Soldiers. It makes sense for them to wear it in some ways.


  • #163
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    Seloth wrote: »
    Im quite confused as too why we wouldnt wear the green poppy.

    WW1 also seems too be a,well hushed subject for our history cause we were in the "Empire" at that stage..lads get if yer high horses,its for remembering dead Irish people who fell during one of the worst and largest wars in history..Not a feckin unionist symbol.

    They wear it in the US,India,Australia,Canada...theres noo hooey over there.


    This has nothing to do with 'remembering dead Irish people who fell during one of the worst and largest wars in history'. It's a British symbol to remember all the men to have served in the British Army in all wars and conflicts including the soldiers who fought against the Irish in the War of Independance!


  • #164
    Wile E. Coyote
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭Wile E. Coyote


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I look forward to easter and slagging off your lot for wearing a Lilly.

    I think your going slightly off topic. This thread is not about slagging off the British for wearing the poppy. The question was, should Irish citizens wear a symbol of respect towards the men who fought and killed Irish men to keep us under British rule. The simple answer is no. Similarly I wouldn't expect any British person to wear a symbol of respect towards Irish men who fought and killed British men to gain us our independance.


  • #165
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    I think your going slightly off topic. This thread is not about slagging off the British for wearing the poppy. The question was, should Irish citizens wear a symbol of respect towards the men who fought and killed Irish men to keep us under British rule. The simple answer is no. Similarly I wouldn't expect any British person to wear a symbol of respect towards Irish men who fought and killed British men to gain us our independance.

    + 100
    Completely agree. The poppy is a British symbol for British soldiers. The lily is a Irish symbol for those who died in the fight for our freedom, both soldiers and innocent victims.


  • #166
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Seloth wrote: »
    Im quite confused as too why we wouldnt wear the green poppy.

    WW1 also seems too be a,well hushed subject for our history cause we were in the "Empire" at that stage..lads get if yer high horses,its for remembering dead Irish people who fell during one of the worst and largest wars in history..Not a feckin unionist symbol.

    They wear it in the US,India,Australia,Canada...theres noo hooey over there.


    wow could you hang on my granddad was born in india (he was irish but his great grandfather lived there as a irish man) and people can get massivly offended by the british poppy in india.

    If you think some irish hate the british for past atrocities then you aint seen nothing untill you go to india!


  • #167
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    You could perhaps imbue it with your own meaning though? As in, as a mark of respect for all of those who suffered and died?


  • #168
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Nodin wrote: »
    ....going about their business in an unjustifiable war, supporting aggression. Goodie for you.



    ...but it doesn't just go to remember WW1 or II.



    The actions of a few? Didn't you just say "There were 50,000 British soldiers involved in the invasion of Iraq "

    Wasn't it British policy to keep India as part of the Empire?

    Wasn't it British policy to keep Kenya as part of the Empire?

    Wasn't it British policy to keep Burma as part of the Empire?

    Wasn't it British policy to keep Aden as part of the Empire?
    You tell me, you're the one who is obsessed with British foreign policy. Maybe that's why this country is in the crappy, because too many people are obsessed with British foreign policy whilst letting their own government ride them stupid.

    BTW, soldiers do not make foreign policy, so your point is irrelevant.


  • #169
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You tell me, you're the one who is obsessed with British foreign policy. Maybe that's why this country is in the crappy, because too many people are obsessed with British foreign policy whilst letting their own government ride them stupid.

    BTW, soldiers do not make foreign policy, so your point is irrelevant.

    so nazi soldiers were also in the clear because they were just following orders yea?


  • #170
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Dudess wrote: »
    You could perhaps imbue it with your own meaning though? As in, as a mark of respect for all of those who suffered and died?

    Think it is more about the money that is made from selling them too.

    Would you buy some flower from a republican group if you knew the money might be going to fund RIRA? It does not matter if you imbue the flower with your own meaning.


  • #171
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Wile E. Coyote wrote: »
    I think your going slightly off topic. This thread is not about slagging off the British for wearing the poppy. The question was, should Irish citizens wear a symbol of respect towards the men who fought and killed Irish men to keep us under British rule. The simple answer is no. Similarly I wouldn't expect any British person to wear a symbol of respect towards Irish men who fought and killed British men to gain us our independance.

    Well, theres an even broader context again, in that its backing those who fought and killed all over the world to force British rule on various peoples, many within the last 50-60 years. Reading a lot of the 'pro poppy' posts, you'll note they skip over that.

    There seems to be some idea around that a German kicking a Belgian down the street is somehow more reprehensible than a British soldier kicking a Yemenite Arab down the street in similar fashion. Tis not the case.


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  • #172
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    The British Army, while I detest elements of it, is not on a par with RIRA imo.


  • #173
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    so nazi soldiers were also in the clear because they were just following orders yea?

    Na, the opposing side don't get to be called soldiers, they are insurgents, terrorists etc.


  • #174
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    There were 50,000 British soldiers involved in the invasion of Iraq and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the war, the vast vast majority of them did their job well and to the book. I wear a poppy to support them.

    there are 10,000 British soldiers in Afghanistan at the moment. This is a war that has the full backing of the UN and is supported by, amongst others, the Republic of Ireland. Again, the vast vast majority of soldiers out there are doing their job well and with honour.

    In WWI alone, 750,000 conscripted British service men were killed and a further 1,700,000 were injured. I wear a poppy to remember them and the hundreds of thousands fighting the worst tyranny the world has seen, the Nazis.

    If you want to cherry pick fine, but to not remember and support the many because of the actions by the few is, in my opinion, disrespectful.

    I lok at this from a different perspective, i admit and i would never wear an easter lilly, but i can understand why people do and I would not criticise someone for it.

    You wear a badge to remember those of a foreign army, but not your own.

    And btw...WW2 involved the nazis WW1 as about Duke Ferdinand :D


  • #175
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Dudess wrote: »
    The British Army, while I detest elements of it, is not on a par with RIRA imo.

    No, I am not trying to equate the two forces. I am saying that whilst you may create any meaning for this flower, it is the money that seems to be an issue with most people. Do you understand?


  • #176
    Hannibal Smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,893 ✭✭✭Hannibal Smith


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You tell me, you're the one who is obsessed with British foreign policy. Maybe that's why this country is in the crappy, because too many people are obsessed with British foreign policy whilst letting their own government ride them stupid.

    BTW, soldiers do not make foreign policy, so your point is irrelevant.

    yeah, that's what happened to this country...you'd better tell Lenihan he's off the hook :D


  • #177
    gent9662
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭gent9662


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    wow could you hang on my granddad was born in india (he was irish but his great grandfather lived there as a irish man) and people can get massivly offended by the british poppy in india.

    If you think some irish hate the british for past atrocities then you aint seen nothing untill you go to india!

    If so many Indians hate the English, why then are they happy to be still part of the commonwealth?


  • #178
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    No, I am not trying to equate the two forces. I am saying that whilst you may create any meaning for this flower, it is the money that seems to be an issue with most people. Do you understand?
    But you were using a comparison I didn't feel was valid. And yes, I understand. Tip: don't patronise people simply for disagreeing with you. Nobody likes people like that.


  • #179
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You tell me, you're the one who is obsessed with British foreign policy. ..

    Evasion.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Maybe that's why this country is in the crappy, because too many people are obsessed with British foreign policy whilst letting their own government ride them stupid..

    'Red Herring part deux - the LOOK OVER THERE returns'
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    BTW, soldiers do not make foreign policy, so your point is irrelevant.

    The Army enforced policy, supporting the poppy is essentially acting as a post service support for all members of the Armed forces regardless of what they did, where and why.

    My point was made in response to you talking about "the actions of a few". Imperialism was state policy.


  • #180
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Dudess wrote: »
    But you were using a comparison I didn't feel was valid. And yes, I understand. Tip: don't patronise people simply for disagreeing with you. Nobody likes people like that.

    Thanks for the tip. I should have said Lily, instead of RIRA, Comparing the Easter Lily and Poppy is quite valid.


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  • #181
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Dudess wrote: »
    You could perhaps imbue it with your own meaning though? As in, as a mark of respect for all of those who suffered and died?

    In your own head. Or you could get a white one, and kill the two birds with one stone.


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