Marathon Sub-Forum?

yungwan · 08-11-2010 04:27PM

I am not an "experienced runner" as many of you all are, but I would like to give my 2c, if thats ok.

I dont think there should be a marathon sub forum as I like as a beginner, that everyone, regardless of level or experience, can all post their questions in the one area and get feedback of others.

Personally I think that if there is a marathon only thread, many starting out would feel like they couldnt necessarily ask questions or post in that forum, without others frowning at their "inexperienced questions". I definately dont think a "sub XX Marathon" forum is the way to go either.

Maybe I am taking up some of the posts wrong here, but it feels as though many think beginners and their constant questions are tiresome. But was everyone here not a novice at one point?

I agree that there can be too much repetition with questions, in particular the "Can I run a Marathon in X weeks..." but surely it's the mods job to filter these appropriately or sticky them as necessary? (I know this takes a lot of work and is no easy task!)

EDIT: And I dont necessarily mean just those starting out at the very start - 5K, 10 K etc, but those running their first Marathon - as these are novices too. Are some of you proposing that even these people shouldnt be allowed into the proposed marathon forum?

Thanks.

Fluorescence · 08-11-2010 04:38PM

Following on yungwan's train of thought... Maybe someone could throw together an FAQ for newbies? It could include links to training programmes, advice on watches, explanation of shoes/gait analysis and all that jazz. It would potentially free up the forum so that the experienced runners here aren't answering the same newb questions all the time.

Regarding a specific marathon sub-forum, I'm not sure what the benefit of that would be. I personally haven't noticed a dominating amount of marathon related threads. If some of the more frequent queries were answered in the FAQ I suggested above, that might negate a couple of threads?

Of course, all of this is coming from a lurking newbie's POV, but there you have it :pac:

tunney · 08-11-2010 04:38PM

yungwan wrote: »

I am not an "experienced runner" as many of you all are, but I would like to give my 2c, if thats ok.

I dont think there should be a marathon sub forum as I like as a beginner, that everyone, regardless of level or experience, can all post their questions in the one area and get feedback of others.

but it is tending to be the case that the feedback you get is from only other beginners

yungwan wrote: »

Personally I think that if there is a marathon only thread, many starting out would feel like they couldnt necessarily ask questions or post in that forum, without others frowning at their "inexperienced questions". I definately dont think a "sub XX Marathon" forum is the way to go either.

Maybe I am taking up some of the posts wrong here, but it feels as though many think beginners and their constant questions are tiresome. But was everyone here not a novice at one point?

Yip in my case - and thats fantastic and all but its not our job to handle hold every newbie.

yungwan wrote: »

I agree that there can be too much repetition with questions, in particular the "Can I run a Marathon in X weeks..." but surely it's the mods job to filter these appropriately or sticky them as necessary? (I know this takes a lot of work and is no easy task!)

To be honest in my eyes the ART board is lacking any decent conversation or discussion and that combined with inability to ask injury questions means I'm stuggling to remember why I read this board.

robinph · 08-11-2010 04:46PM

tunney wrote: »

but it is tending to be the case that the feedback you get is from only other beginners

Yip in my case - and thats fantastic and all but its not our job to handle hold every newbie.

But moving the people that have been around the block a few more times off to another area isn't going to help with getting any questions of the n00bies answered...and they will always have questions...and they will always be the same as ones that have been asked before. There isn't really anything that can be done about that, and I don't think we should try to either.

yungwan · 08-11-2010 04:47PM

Hmmm, as I said I do see why some questions become tiresome, but I guess you dont have to answer those questions!

Im just curious as to when would novices stop being novices? And therefore stop being tiresome?! Genuinely interested.

I would like to do a maratho in the next year but if the proposed marathon sub-forum happened I dont think Id feel welcome.

Thanks for your response anyway.

ecoli · 08-11-2010 05:03PM

I'm happy with the way things are.

yungwan wrote: »

I dont think there should be a marathon sub forum as I like as a beginner, that everyone, regardless of level or experience, can all post their questions in the one area and get feedback of others.

The point would not be to exclude these people but rather have a specific forum like the training logs one where people with an interest in marathon running can advise. If there are few threads on "I want to run my first 5k, 10k, Marathon" on the main page most likely people are not gonna go into all three offering advice by breaking into a sub section may actually help to prevent people avoiding by seeing a couple of similar threads

yungwan wrote: »

Personally I think that if there is a marathon only thread, many starting out would feel like they couldnt necessarily ask questions or post in that forum, without others frowning at their "inexperienced questions". I definately dont think a "sub XX Marathon" forum is the way to go either.

I dont think that people are talking about entry levels to the threads but rather like the training logs target times but again that was an idea from a poster rather than an actual proposal

yungwan wrote: »

Maybe I am taking up some of the posts wrong here, but it feels as though many think beginners and their constant questions are tiresome. But was everyone here not a novice at one point?

This is true and i think this is one of the reasons for the growth in recent times of the forum is the openess and willingness to help by more experienced boardsies

yungwan wrote: »

I agree that there can be too much repetition with questions, in particular the "Can I run a Marathon in X weeks..." but surely it's the mods job to filter these appropriately or sticky them as necessary? (I know this takes a lot of work and is no easy task!)

The problem with filtering is by moving them into large "megathreads" is that so many posts often little gems of information are lost when 5 or 6 posts come in over it

yungwan wrote: »

EDIT: And I dont necessarily mean just those starting out at the very start - 5K, 10 K etc, but those running their first Marathon - as these are novices too. Are some of you proposing that even these people shouldnt be allowed into the proposed marathon forum?

No one is suggesting that this was in reference to a previous thread as part of a joke.

My previous post was made in a non moderator position and think it is interesting to get all aspects of the debate. Again i think that the majority will speak for itself in the end. I dont think people see this as a dig at novices but rather marathon related topics consuming the message board

yungwan · 08-11-2010 05:09PM

ecoli wrote: »

The point would not be to exclude these people but rather have a specific forum like the training logs one where people with an interest in marathon running can advise.

I dont think that people are talking about entry levels to the threads but rather like the training logs target times but again that was an idea from a poster rather than an actual proposal

This is true and i think this is one of the reasons for the growth in recent times of the forum is the openess and willingness to help by more experienced boardsies

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my concerns ecoli.
I really appreciate it.
I was just worried some people would be excluded.

Thanks again.

RayCun · 08-11-2010 05:22PM

fluorescence wrote: »

Following on yungwan's train of thought... Maybe someone could throw together an FAQ for newbies? It could include links to training programmes, advice on watches, explanation of shoes/gait analysis and all that jazz.

I have every intention of doing something like this over the next few weeks. The problems are that it will be advice for novices by someone who is pretty much a novice himself (I'll probably put posts up in the 2010 DCM novices thread for feedback first, so it will be the collective wisdom... of a bunch of novices), and that once written it'll never be read.
But I'll do it anyway.
Probably.

donothoponpop · 08-11-2010 05:45PM

I'm happy with the way things are.

yungwan wrote: »

Maybe I am taking up some of the posts wrong here, but it feels as though many think beginners and their constant questions are tiresome. But was everyone here not a novice at one point?

I agree that there can be too much repetition with questions, in particular the "Can I run a Marathon in X weeks..." but surely it's the mods job to filter these appropriately or sticky them as necessary? (I know this takes a lot of work and is no easy task!)

EDIT: And I dont necessarily mean just those starting out at the very start - 5K, 10 K etc, but those running their first Marathon - as these are novices too. Are some of you proposing that even these people shouldnt be allowed into the proposed marathon forum?

Thanks.

The proposed forum would be of more benefit for newer runners and marathon novices, in that marathon training programs (and probably stickied FAQ's) would be found there. It would be marathon-specific, in keeping with the popularity of 26.2 as a "life goal" for many people.

Its never going to be the case here (under the current mods) that anyone should feel excluded.

bart simpson · 08-11-2010 05:57PM

in my opinion having a marathon sub forum wont improve the site....i don't think it will increase the participation of non marathon runners on this site, but it could affect the participation of new people to the site because it will make the information which they want behind another door which they might not open(or see) ( a clothes shop doesn't display its popular stuff in its store, its right in the front window)
what is the primary function for this site....is it to facilitate discussion or promote certain types of discussion?

--amadeus-- · 08-11-2010 06:16PM

donothoponpop wrote: »

There's a poll at the top, (which you haven't voted on yet), it will be used to decide what direction we take.

My issue was with the "too many" in the OP, inference being that "too many" marathon threads are here & that this is a problem. A stance I personally don't agree with. And I haven't voted in the poll because neither option is particularly appealing.

There is a recycling of experience in the forum - this years DCM novices thread was led by one of last years novices. Next years will be the same. This weeks newbies are next years experienced old heads. Experience gets passed along.

But I can 100% see where Tunney is coming from (for once!). Interesting conversation happens among peers with different ideas, thoughts and experiences. While a raw beginner to Tri hoping to do a Sprint might learn a lot from a sub 10 IM like Tunney there is little Tunney will learn from them. Likewise there is nothing that a novice training for a first marathon could teach someone like KC.

But here is the thing - while Tunney or KC could advise the newbs they are not always the best people to do so. Someone like Ray or RK who have just recently gone through that cycle and who still remember all the mistakes they made are better placed. Speaking personally I pay far more attention to training advice from my peers (as found in the sub 3 marathon thread for example) than I would from someone just starting out or who has never trained for an endurance event. There is a hierarchy - not of value but of experience. And you'll get the most interesting and worthwhile conversation amongst people at similar levels in that hierarchy.

But with such a sprawling forum there is no ready "community" any more. There must be dozens of people on Boards with an interest in T&F. But they will never post on here because it's filled with Road Running stuff. And I'll bet there are dozens of serious, fast and talented runners out there who would love to talk training with thier peers but who won't come on here because it's full of novices. And I know from seeing the posts that a lot of the novices are scared off by the times that some of teh big names on here have posted. So everyone loses - the size of the community is self defeating.

So the answer - IMO _ is to divide the community into more manageable chunks. Give every sector a peer group to talk to. More interesting and relevant discussions would happen there. Because as it stands I'm like Tunney - this was a great and vibrant forum but I think it might have teh post count but not the interest any more.

RacoonQueen · 08-11-2010 06:45PM

RayCun wrote: »

If you're interested in triathlon, surely what you want is for the good triathlon threads to stay visible for longer rather than to have 4 of the 20 non-sticky front page posts to be about triathlon?

If the thread is that good why is it not staying on the front page? Look at the people who browse the forum, I see a lot of triathletes regularly lurking, yet they rarely post. Why not? It's up to them to get threads started if they want to discuss triathlons/training/gear/racing/nutrition. Even in the logs the majority of threads are from long distance runners. MCOS is great for getting tri threads started, and, keeping them going.

It's also not that much effort for me to go onto page two of the forum to read a triathlon thread.

The majority of active posters on here are road runners. While a lot of tri and track athletes just lurk. If you want advice on something, ask. If you want to discuss an event, start a thread.

Anyway, it doesn't make a difference to me either way. However, I do think it would be a shame to 'relegate' marathons to their own sub forum.

robinph · 08-11-2010 06:54PM

Where do new triathletes come from?

New runners come from sitting on the couch and then deciding they shouldn't be any more, and I would expect that new swimmers and cyclists come from the same place.

Do people get the urge to start off as a triathlete though, or are they people who have been running/ swimming/ cycling for a while and then decide they need the extra challenge? I suspect they more often come from already being a bit more active in one sport or another and then decide to try three at a time, for that reason the level of a new triathlete is different to a new individual sport person, so they probably don't have as many of the same type of questions as you get with someone just starting off becoming active from scratch. Therefore they will generate less traffic.

Cabaal · 08-11-2010 06:55PM

I'm happy with the way things are.

So are we better off making a Tri sub-forum given its in a minority?
Or atleast appears to be

tunney · 08-11-2010 06:59PM

robinph wrote: »

Where do new triathletes come from?

New runners come from sitting on the couch and then deciding they shouldn't be any more, and I would expect that new swimmers and cyclists come from the same place.

Do people get the urge to start off as a triathlete though, or are they people who have been running/ swimming/ cycling for a while and then decide they need the extra challenge? I suspect they more often come from already being a bit more active in one sport or another and then decide to try three at a time, for that reason the level of a new triathlete is different to a new individual sport person, so they probably don't have as many of the same type of questions as you get with someone just starting off becoming active from scratch.

Can only speak for myself. I needed a new bike, saw one with funky handlebars that pointed out. Asked what it was for, was told. Bought it. then realised I couldn't swim at all, didn't cycle except for commuting, and didn't really run bar one 5 miler in the park that took about 40-45 minutes during my "stop being a fattie programme"

Did I know a single thing swimming/cycling/running? No.

Triathletes need not, and quite often don't, have any background in any sport.

tunney · 08-11-2010 07:01PM

Cabaal wrote: »

So are we better off making a Tri sub-forum given its in a minority?
Or atleast appears to be

Emmm but most triathletes run too. I'm very interested in discussions on 10kms that are run byt fast people (< 32) and fast 5kms(< 15) and fast marathons (< 2:30) and i want to be able to read discussions about that without trawling through pages of crap about "what t-shirt should I wear?"

xebec · 08-11-2010 07:05PM

yungwan wrote: »

Hmmm, as I said I do see why some questions become tiresome, but I guess you dont have to answer those questions!

Im just curious as to when would novices stop being novices? And therefore stop being tiresome?! Genuinely interested.

I would like to do a maratho in the next year but if the proposed marathon sub-forum happened I dont think Id feel welcome.

Thanks for your response anyway.

Just want to clarify my posts above, they were supposed to be in a joking manner about some of the elitism that you find on message boards. I don't think we have too much of that here and I wouldn't want it to exist or be created. (I can't speak for tunney though :pac:)

I'm all for inclusion of everyone. Yes, the same questions do get asked all the time, but also they are generally either answered or the person is pointed in the direction of the answer. I've gotten a lot out of this message board so I have no problem giving some time back and getting people interested in our sport - be that long, short, road, XC or multi-sport.

I think the majority of posters on here hold a similar viewpoint, having met quite a few of them in real life they tend to be nice, friendly and welcoming people.

Just because someone doesn't sees themselves as being a novice doesn't mean that others will consider them such. I didn't run my first marathon this year but I was still active in the novices DCM thread, providing input where I could but also getting wisdom from others who were experiencing similar situations as I was going through.

Back OT, I still don't think there is an over-abundance of marathon threads on the front page. This time of year you are bound to get more than at other times. The main point IMO is that it reflects the interest of the majority of users of this board and as another poster has already mentioned putting them in a sub-forum will add another level of detail/complexity (can't find the right word) that the new user will either not want to go to or will miss completely, therefore us losing out on a new member of our community.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

RayCun · 08-11-2010 07:07PM

--amadeus-- wrote: »

So the answer - IMO _ is to divide the community into more manageable chunks. Give every sector a peer group to talk to.

Subfora for Tri, Athletics, sub 4 marathon, sub 3? The latter two not enforced (ie, you don't need a qualifying time to get in), but will give more space for the more experienced people? And a novice marathon subforum?

I think the way to go is to expect all of the newbies to start in the main forum, and as they get more experienced to spend more time in a subforum. The main forum is the natural point of arrival.

xebec · 08-11-2010 07:08PM

tunney wrote: »

Emmm but most triathletes run too. I'm very interested in discussions on 10kms that are run byt fast people (< 32) and fast 5kms(< 15) and fast marathons (< 2:30) and i want to be able to read discussions about that without trawling through pages of crap about "what t-shirt should I wear?"

That's fair enough - apart from calling the other threads pages of crap, that's not really fair, you might have had those questions once too.

If you want to have discussion about those things, start threads for them. Unfortunately due to the demographics of this board it is unlikely you will have many people capable of running those times who can provide advice, but lots of people (including me) will be interested to see what is being written in there. Should it be given priority at the expense of other threads? No. It's up to each thread to earn it's place on the front page by generating traffic and comment.

shels4ever · 08-11-2010 07:11PM

I'm happy with the way things are.

xebec wrote: »

That's fair enough - apart from calling the other threads pages of crap, that's not really fair.

One man's crap is another mans gold

I get Tunneys point there a some threads that I jsut wouldnt bother with at all, Tend to skip most of the marathon ones now, like the XC thread and find myself popping in and out of the IM and HIM threads .

tunney · 08-11-2010 07:17PM

xebec wrote: »

That's fair enough - apart from calling the other threads pages of crap, that's not really fair, you might have had those questions once too.

I did have those questions and I read books and magazines and researched my answers rather than expecting to be spoon fed. I admit "Lore of Running" when training for second season was hard to digest but informative.

xebec wrote: »

If you want to have discussion about those things, start threads for them. Unfortunately due to the demographics of this board it is unlikely you will have many people capable of running those times who can provide advice, but lots of people (including me) will be interested to see what is being written in there. Should it be given priority at the expense of other threads? No. It's up to each thread to earn it's place on the front page by generating traffic and comment.

I used extremes to demonstrate my point.

I think a split that would be ideal would be "I want to do an event" versus "I want to do the sport".

--amadeus-- · 08-11-2010 07:25PM

tunney wrote: »

I think a split that would be ideal would be "I want to do an event" versus "I want to do the sport".

Maybe a private forum for athletes who are (or see themselves as being) competitive?

Invitation only, Tunney as Mod sets the admission policy

Magnet · 08-11-2010 07:46PM

Call him TOD :P

thirtyfoot · 08-11-2010 08:08PM

I agree with Tunney's 'spade a spade' idea. A sub-forum for the newbie, FAQ type questions. The forum is alarmingly dull these days. It used to be more vibrant and more diverse. Most of the posters who posted on competitive athletics (not just T&F) are gone. That's the nature of the messageboards but more pronounced here. I come out and click out within 10 seconds these days. If I see a thread that's half interesting I'll go to town on it and post, many times just to get my argumentative fix, either that or the wife will get it that night. The problem now that even when competive athletic posts go up nobody replies as I'd imagine most of those who would have previously don't look in or only do infrequently and threads are lost.

In summary, ART is boring as hell, has the same threads with the same answers and has very few interesting threads and is more about telling each other how great we are. If that's the way it's to be, well that's grand but i reckon over time the forum will become more a more a celebration Of mediocrity and great posters like tergat etc will never find their way here in the first place.

Cabaal · 08-11-2010 08:41PM

I'm happy with the way things are.

So are we better off making a Tri sub-forum given its in a minority?
Or atleast appears to be

misty floyd · 08-11-2010 08:46PM

In an ideal A/R/T word:

- Road running (5km, 10km etc) & Mountain running
- Marathon & Ultra's
- Track and Field
- Triathlon
- Training logs

Events page gets absorbed into the individual sub forums.

Thats what I want for xmas. Thank you.

neilc · 08-11-2010 08:50PM

misty floyd wrote: »

In an ideal A/R/T word:

- Road running (5km, 10km etc) & Mountain running
- Marathon & Ultra's
- Track and Field
- Triathlon
- Training logs

Events page gets absorbed into the individual sub forums.

Thats what I want for xmas. Thank you.

This sounds like a great solution.
Neil

token56 · 08-11-2010 09:01PM

I'm happy with the way things are.

I dont know if this would be a complete waste of time, or work at all but is there anything that could be done with using a prefix for a compromise. An example is in the soccer forum where team superthreads are given a "superthread" prefix and can be filtered out very easily for whoever choses to do so.

In terms of the logistics of this I dont exactly know how itwould work as I presume its only the mods who can add such prefix's. Therefore they would have to go and add the prefix to any current or new marathon related thread, which is certainly an additional overhead for them.

I'd also feel this is in some way "picking" on marathon threads and labelling them as the annoying ones, but isn't that what would be happening anyway with a sub-forum? I know it is different from a sub-forum but it might provide the same effect for those who want to have a marathon free front page. But I guess if this is implemented then you could have people asking how far do you go, do you have a triathlon and track prefix too?

In reality it would probably never work but I dont know maybe there is some alternative there.

RacoonQueen · 08-11-2010 09:12PM

thirtyfoot wrote: »

I agree with Tunney's 'spade a spade' idea. A sub-forum for the newbie, FAQ type questions. The forum is alarmingly dull these days. It used to be more vibrant and more diverse. Most of the posters who posted on competitive athletics (not just T&F) are gone. That's the nature of the messageboards but more pronounced here. I come out and click out within 10 seconds these days. If I see a thread that's half interesting I'll go to town on it and post, many times just to get my argumentative fix, either that or the wife will get it that night. The problem now that even when competive athletic posts go up nobody replies as I'd imagine most of those who would have previously don't look in or only do infrequently and threads are lost.

In summary, ART is boring as hell, has the same threads with the same answers and has very few interesting threads and is more about telling each other how great we are. If that's the way it's to be, well that's grand but i reckon over time the forum will become more a more a celebration Of mediocrity and great posters like tergat etc will never find their way here in the first place.

This has actually swayed me a bit. I have found that the forum has become very stale over the last few months. Even though the threads are usually marathon related I read very few of them. Posters like thirtyfoot(before the name change), tergat, racingflat, bazman etc have pretty much disappeared off the radar as well as some of the good triathlete posters. All would have been good knowledgable posters, though I still don't see why they don't just start threads about their own discipline

. Or did some of them get lost in the big hacking episode a few months ago?

This came up just a few weeks ago and a few months before that, a divide similar to what misty floyd has posted above has come up every time this subject has. If there's going to be any divide why not go with one like that?

donothoponpop · 08-11-2010 09:19PM

I'm happy with the way things are.

token56 wrote: »

I'd also feel this is in some way "picking" on marathon threads and labelling them as the annoying ones, but isn't that what would be happening anyway with a sub-forum?

Hi token,

you're not the first to put the subforum idea in this light, someone else referred to it as a demotion, I'll just give a quick comment, as I'm kind of surprized that so many people see it in this light. I would envision it as a handier way to box the many general, loose marathon threads we get, which often would be better answered in a FAQ/best practice type area. Certainly when I (as a mod) see any thread on a recurring topic, and dying quickly after, I start to think of better ways to deal with them. The huge amount of similar Garmin threads are better dealt with in a megathread, and I hoped the same for the marathon ones, but its impractical, so we figured a sub-forum might work. When first suggested, I very much saw this as an elevation, a recognition of the importance marathon threads have on this forum. I also believe it would make moderating these threads easier (and when the same question is asked on a frequent basis, it usually needs a bit of moderation).

Having said that, we'll obviously go with whatever the majority decide (it would help if it wasn't such a 50-50% split!:D). A bit of venting about whats good/bad with the forum is good too, helps sweep the cobwebs on a yearly basis.

Marathon Sub-Forum?

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