The "attack" begins . . Together we stand or fall . .

Drumpot · 04-11-2010 06:55PM #1

The proverbial is finally hitting the fan. . What many of us knew is finally happening. . The IMF is looking over the Irish Sea and the bond markets are looking for more to subsidise our financial needs. .

If people thought it’s been painful for the last 2 years, the next 5 could be the harshest felt in this country for some time. . .

As far as I am concerned, how this country will survive will be dependent on several factors, but the ones we can control of could determine how we come through this turbulent times. Do we want to fight for bits of scraps (I am entitled to this) or are we going to come together and work collectively to get our country back on its feet..

Self vested groups declaring that they are being "attacked" need to be kicked into touch. Its not just the public service or Pensioners that are feeling the pain, the entire country in some form is feeling it. This notion that a section of society is being singled out for "pain" is ridiculous to the point of ignorance.

I say to the public service that thinks it is "entitled" to maintain its living standards, the reason your wages were benchmarked was because the concept of "sharing in the countries prosperity" was implemented. To expect Job security and a no salary cuts when the country is on the brink of collapse is completely wrong (generous way of putting it).

I say to the pensioner who says "I worked for my Pension", I say, you did and you will continue to get one. The monetary amount you get today was a result of the increases allowable during the boom years, but the country cannot sustain it. You will continue to get a pension, just a lower amount.

In both cases the argument that these sections of society had nothing to do with the collapse of our country and that they should not share the burden of pain, is unfounded and a misguided perception based on the principle of entitlement. The public service and Pensioners would represent a significant amount of the electorate to significantly decide who gets into power and who is left on the outside. While on sound bites on TV they all protest that they didn’t vote FF, its fair to assume that a majority of these people were indeed voting for FF while their salaries were being benchmarked and their pensions on the up. So, they did contribute to the current crisis in some form.

Not just that, because of these mistakes my child and unborn child will still be paying off for the mistakes of this generation (that includes Pensioners) for something they had nothing to do with. These two sections of society have the loudest voice and as such believe the rhetoric that they say, I am only mentioning them because these sections of society feel that their concerns are most important and they need to be brought down to the levels that the rest of us are on. My point is simple; everybody in this country has a role to play in getting this country back on its feet. No section of society has a right to plead ignorance or claim that they didn’t in some way contribute to this countries collapse. Different people had different levels of contributions towards it, but however big or small that was, we are all in it together.

Accountability is a desire we ALL want to see, but it will not fix the country. Of course it should happen, but it should not let us take our eyes off getting the country back on its feet. I think the Germans are a fantastic example of how a nation can collectively pick itself back up from ruins. Anecdotally you don’t hear of Many Germans who say “well I didnt follow Hitler”, they all either think they were shameful in following him or didn’t do enough to stop him. In this country we waste time pointing fingers and trying to wriggle out of responsibility (and our government definitely mirrors our society). Is it not fair to assume that a country pulling in the same direction would have a better chance of prosperity, then vested groups pushing their own agenda's?

We are a relatively young country and our misguided exuberance and poor political structure (coupled with the way people choose to vote) has led us to this juncture. We can have a more balanced society with accountability being more prominent, making it less corrupt but we have to make this an integral part of how we vote. I really believe that if we all work together, take collective responsibility and work harder for less, we will come out of this stronger. The people with nothing but bad things to say and comments like “well I don’t see why I should have to pay for this”, should be shipped off on the SS-Smug and allowed to waste their own time while the rest of us try to achieve something special. Nothing positive comes out of being negative; you can awknowledge bad things and mistakes made without being negative (constructive criticism). We need to be more about what we can achieve and less about what we cannot do. Let’s stop beating ourselves up, get on with things, take the pain and make our country a better place to live.

Glenalla · 04-11-2010 06:59PM

+1

Richard tea · 04-11-2010 07:04PM

So to sum up your point, we should work harder and longer hours for less pay

talla10 · 04-11-2010 07:05PM

Together we stand or divided we fall?

We fell two years ago when the government began its campaign of seperating public and private sector and creating a rift so no body could see how bad we were at the time and how Anglo and other banks lied their asses off to be covered in the bank guarantee scheme.

I really dont see any way market confidence can be restored in a matter of months. The IMF is coming IMO and Bertie, Cowen and Co has brought this upon us. And we thought Charlie was bad!!

dan_d · 04-11-2010 07:14PM

Drumpot, I'm not always in agreement with you, but I think you're dead right!!

Enough with the finger pointing and childish whinging. More than enough. We've all established we're not to blame. So let's get on with the solutions.

Drumpot · 04-11-2010 07:16PM

talla10 wrote: »

Together we stand or divided we fall?

We fell two years ago when the government began its campaign of seperating public and private sector and creating a rift so no body could see how bad we were at the time and how Anglo and other banks lied their asses off to be covered in the bank guarantee scheme.

I really dont see any way market confidence can be restored in a matter of months. The IMF is coming IMO and Bertie, Cowen and Co has brought this upon us. And we thought Charlie was bad!!

the government didnt have to have a campaign pitching the public v Private sector. The Unions did all the damage with their awful self indulged rhetoric that pretty much said that anybody who is a member of the union should not have to pay for this mess . . The government didnt have to do anything . .

I am proposing a longer term solution to a problem that has plagued this country since it was formed. People need to grow up and understand that the country hasnt just fallen into depression because of a few dodgy decisions made by murky characters in the shadows. There was greed by everybody. Nobody wanted to know where the money was coming from, all was great while the going was good.

As a society, people are focusing on "working more for less" as if they are entitled to keep their current salary out of some sort of commandment "thou shalt not let thy living standards be effected by anything thy shalt not think thy was responsible for". Seriously, if people actually put down the pitchforks and looked at what they are doing and objectively/rationally thought about what they are achieving by moaning and ignoring the perilous state of this country, they would be able to take a step in the right direction.

Life is tough, but the people of Ireland were pampered and their votes were bought. Now we have to pay for our sins. . Sure, there are people who will always have somebody else to blame but I think society got what it wanted . .

Denial - Anger - Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance

Denial (Not my fault, I didnt vote FF or the lame opposition etc)
Anger - (Fk the bankers, builders etc)
Bargaining - (bankers should goto jail, labour party will sort us out)
Depression - (whats the point, we are fked, lets all indulge in reading the awful negative media and kill ourselves slowly)
Acceptance - (We are where we are, what can we do to get back up!).

Only when we accept what has happened and work to move forward will we be able to get back on our feet as a nation . .

Smiegal · 04-11-2010 07:36PM

Drumpot,

I read your post. In one part of it you admire the Germans for not blaming each other but instead take collective blame. I admire that too.

However, in another part of your post you directly attack and blame both pensioners and all Public Service staff for the mess we are in by voting in FF...

Double standards Drumpot, Double Standards.

For the record Drumpot I think what annoys most people is not themselves getting cut or hit in some way as you say, but instead others getting away with everything.... Banks, Politicians etc...

Dannyboy83 · 04-11-2010 07:44PM

I worked for 1year in IT Support on €20k p.a. and 2 years in Software dev on €24k p.a. during the boom.
I've been supporting my unemployed girlfriend with whom i co-habit from my current measely salary for the last 2.5 years as she has been denied welfare time and time again.

I didn't take any mortgages or loans ( I wasn't entitled to anyway!)

I refute your claim of 'collective responsibility' and accept no part in it.

If people had any idea how we've lived for the last 6 years, I genuinely believe they'd be in collective hysterics on the floor.

In all honesty, I don't view these cuts as a bad thing, I think they are probably the best thing that are gonna happen to my generation, some of us might finally have a chance.;)

I have never lived the good life so I'm genuinely unconcerned.
I already can't afford to visit the dentist or doctor, can't afford to smoke.............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality?

skelliser · 04-11-2010 07:55PM

OP I WILL MAKE THIS CLEAR!!

We are imo still very much in the anger face!

I WANT JAIL TIME FOR SOME AND HUMILIATION FOR OTHERS.

Now it looks like i might not get my jail time but humiliations are on the cards at the next election.

when i get my chance to stick it to Fianna Fail in the coming election i will be happy. Then i can move on to the next phase with getting on with repairing my country as best i can.

Until then i will not accept anymore bull**** from these traitors to ireland: Fianna Fail

flutered · 04-11-2010 07:55PM

............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality?

[/QUOTE]

at a guess directly and indirectly another 1k next year, then another cut the year after, so be very afraid that you job does not disappear with the recession.

Dannyboy83 · 04-11-2010 08:05PM

flutered wrote: »

............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality?

at a guess directly and indirectly another 1k next year, then another cut the year after, so be very afraid that you job does not disappear with the recession.

LOL, as I said, genuinely unconcerned.

If I were made redundant, it's likely I would have an increase in disposable income, as my girlfriend would then also be able to receive social welfare.

I have dental problems amounting to about €2k which I cannot afford to get fixed at all.
If I were unemployed, medical card - this would be seen to.
I have a pilonidal sinus, I have a number of health issues which I cannot afford to get treated at all, despite paying health insurance.

Rent assistance et al.
TBH, being made redundant would probably be a step up for us.
Crazy when you think how much tax I pay, but that's the reality for a lot of us.

The only people quakin in their booties right about now are the people who've been creaming it and they know it. They can accept the responsibility, I won't.

changes · 04-11-2010 08:08PM

talla10 wrote: »

Together we stand or divided we fall?

We fell two years ago when the government began its campaign of seperating public and private sector and creating a rift so no body could see how bad we were at the time and how Anglo and other banks lied their asses off to be covered in the bank guarantee scheme.

You can sometimes get a fresh perspective when looking at from the outside. Go and look at page 105 on BBC teletext and tell me if the government hasn't pulled a fast one by pitting public against private.

geespot · 04-11-2010 08:09PM

not everybody prospered during the so called celtic tiger mostly those involved in the building trade and related areas in banking estate agents and people lucky enough to have sites to sell. the public servants were jealous of say for instance how much a bricky might be earning and demanded equity of pay (regardless of the fact that the bricky was actually working for his money) anyway between the greedy unions and gutless goverment they got there rise and then the unions and the goverment in a bid to show how caring and generous they where give recipents of social welfare anice rise aswell and as usual the majority joe soap financed it all (some of which also believed the celtic tiger **** and bought cars and houses they couldnt afford on the basis that mortgage was some sort of present and not a loan)

geespot · 04-11-2010 08:12PM

remember the blue flu and the nurse strike the goverment caved in and that opened the floodgates once the unions seen how gutless the goverment was it was like taking candy off a baby we need a strong labour goverment to stand up to the unions

bladespin · 04-11-2010 08:17PM

skelliser wrote: »

OP I WILL MAKE THIS CLEAR!!

We are imo still very much in the anger face!

I WANT JAIL TIME FOR SOME AND HUMILIATION FOR OTHERS.

Absolutely, I doubt you'll ever see Ireland stand together as OP suggests without some sort of justice for those who caused all of this.

Even now I can't stand the idea of doing my bit when Brian Cowen is still at the helm, surely understanding the anger of the nation he should have just gone, he, for me, is the face of the problem, his ineptitude and laziness as minister for finance have caused this mess.

I love my country but at the moment I feel it's rotten to the core.

geespot · 04-11-2010 08:29PM

think some people or struggling to understand what a recession is been on the road all day and the number of 08+ bmw mercs etc on road. its not a problem wen you cant afford to go on that skying holiday again this winter or might have to sell one of the holiday homes but defo not the one in the south of france or even when you have to fly ryanair instead of aerlingus

flutered · 04-11-2010 08:45PM

dannyboy, you need to lake a look at the citizens information website, a medical card is not automatic, neither is free dental care, the scratcher is not all it is made out to be, i was on it a few times, and never liked it, one of the times it was 3 pounds and six shillings a week, rent allowance is going to be hit, the scrarch has to take a hit, pensions will take a hit, my 201 euro is going to disappear, i would say to 190, hopefully i am wrong, health care is going to be hit, me thinks your lol days are numbered.

changes · 04-11-2010 08:48PM

This is now a major problem for the younger generation and the working classes. Alot of the older generation and upper middle class people made their money during the boom and are comfortable. There are still lots of people running around in nice cars, have no mortgage and still go on their holidays a few times a year.

The pain will be felt by the rest of us. The under 45's and the working classes be they public or private are now going to be left with the bill.

BTW all of the current government and the people making the major decisions (including higher civil servants) are in the group that are comfortable.

geespot · 04-11-2010 08:59PM

if you where in any other country and on welfare or minimum wage you would be just about scraping by not in this country i know people on the dole they are laughing and know of ones who have left a job because it wasnt worth there while why work when you can get as much for staying at home a 10% cut is the minimum possible

bladespin · 04-11-2010 09:25PM

changes wrote: »

This is now a major problem for the younger generation and the working classes. Alot of the older generation and upper middle class people made their money during the boom and are comfortable. There are still lots of people running around in nice cars, have no mortgage and still go on their holidays a few times a year.

The pain will be felt by the rest of us. The under 45's and the working classes be they public or private are now going to be left with the bill.

BTW all of the current government and the people making the major decisions (including higher civil servants) are in the group that are comfortable.

Don't fool yourself, there's plenty under 45 that are comfortable too, about the same proportion of over 45s are on the bread line, living beyond their means on borrowed time hoping something good will come along.

So many young people invested in their homes, so many of the others invested in the construction and property, one's in negative equity the other is bankrupt.

Latchy · 04-11-2010 09:51PM

bladespin wrote: »

I love my country but at the moment I feel it's rotten to the core.

Although I dont live here now, I to love my country and it saddens me to see it get screwed up when it had so much going for it .I to think to a certain degree there always was corruption but it was called you scratch my back , I'll scratch yours ,to others it was same ol same, looking after no 1 and some people ok .... many lost the run of themselfs .It just took the downturn for it to be exposed a bit more .So when the writing was on the wall and somebody was crying 'Wolfe ' where were the brains of the country saying ' halt this madness now ' ? .... who was listening ? I expect many knew what was going to happen but like rabbits caught in the headlights didn't like upsetting the balance to see the dangers lurking ahead and it came to all this .

Drumpot · 05-11-2010 05:47AM

Smiegal wrote: »

Drumpot,

I read your post. In one part of it you admire the Germans for not blaming each other but instead take collective blame. I admire that too.

However, in another part of your post you directly attack and blame both pensioners and all Public Service staff for the mess we are in by voting in FF...

Double standards Drumpot, Double Standards.

For the record Drumpot I think what annoys most people is not themselves getting cut or hit in some way as you say, but instead others getting away with everything.... Banks, Politicians etc...

I didnt blame pensioners and Public service for this mess, please quote me where I said it was all their fault. I said they contributed. My point with the Germans doing nothing, was considered just as bad as fanning the flames of Nazi Propaganda . . Your inability to properly comprehend my post is highlighted no better then in this statement .

I clearly stated that the reason I singled out these two sections of society was because they have the loudest voice and as such they feel that it makes them the most important people in terms of how pain should be portioned out. . Once again, I didnt blame them for what happened. I blame the greed of society (Im sorry I had to actually spell that out for you).

So no, it wasnt double standards, it was simply you not reading/understanding my post . .

Drumpot · 05-11-2010 05:57AM

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I worked for 1year in IT Support on €20k p.a. and 2 years in Software dev on €24k p.a. during the boom.
I've been supporting my unemployed girlfriend with whom i co-habit from my current measely salary for the last 2.5 years as she has been denied welfare time and time again.

I didn't take any mortgages or loans ( I wasn't entitled to anyway!)

I refute your claim of 'collective responsibility' and accept no part in it.

If people had any idea how we've lived for the last 6 years, I genuinely believe they'd be in collective hysterics on the floor.

In all honesty, I don't view these cuts as a bad thing, I think they are probably the best thing that are gonna happen to my generation, some of us might finally have a chance.;)

I have never lived the good life so I'm genuinely unconcerned.
I already can't afford to visit the dentist or doctor, can't afford to smoke.............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality?

Ive never lived the "good life" either. Never earned more then 26k and I am in serious trouble financially . . What has that got to do with anything ?

Oh I wanted a house for my family, shoot me, not as an investment property . . You say that you werent entitled to take out loans or mortgages, which means what exactly ? The very fact you said it means you may be in a differant situation then you are in now (prob better off that you couldnt) but are judging others in your ivory tower simply because you can.

You "refute my claim" of collective responsibility . . So what exactly do you propose ? That we all go in differant directions and that the country will sort itself out by differant vested interest groups trying to get themselves looked after ?

Or perhaps you were marching on the streets when all the money was being made and you disagreed with the way the country was being run ? What exactly did you do to try to make our country better ? Or did you just bury your head in the sand and presume that the running of our country was somebody elses responsibility ?

This is one of the problems of this country. People think voting , not voting or not giving a flying fk about how our country is run, is automatically a "get out of jail" card in responsibility when the sh(t hits the fan. Like my example with the Germans, doing nothing doesnt absolve you of your responsibility as a voter. If more people took their votes more important we wouldnt be in this mess.

People need to grow up and start taking responsibility for our country . . Until that happens, we will be stuck trying to get by with governments voted in by desperate people simply looking to pawn the pain off on others and nobody will be a winner . .

SkepticOne · 05-11-2010 06:40AM

What is happening is that money is being taken off the general population to compensate risk takers for their mistakes to the detriment of the economy.

Why should we all stand together to support that? Standing together is a great thing but it should be for the good of the country not the good of the few.

You say we stand or fall together. Well it looks like we're taking the fall.

SkepticOne · 05-11-2010 06:58AM

Drumpot wrote: »

You "refute my claim" of collective responsibility . . So what exactly do you propose ? That we all go in differant directions and that the country will sort itself out by differant vested interest groups trying to get themselves looked after?

I think the problem is that you see only two options. 1. We all make sacrifices together for the good of the state. 2. We all look for handouts from the state. Both have the state at the centre.

Whilst I'm not an anti-statist, I feel in this particular case, the state apparatus is part of the problem. In the aftermath of the bubble bursting, the government made policy decision that amounted to a denial of the problem. I believe NAMA and the various protections offered to risk taking bond holders as well some other policies have exacerbated the problem.

I see part of the solution, therefore, as letting things take their course without government intervention. For example I think the government should stop propping up the property market and let prices reach their natural level. This might mean properties in ghost estates being bought up for 10K but so be it. The sooner prices hit bottom the sooner they will rise again.

The problem I have with your opening post is that you don't address what we should be standing together for. Should we be standing together to support an even bigger hole being dug for ourselves? If so, count me out.

PanchoVilla · 05-11-2010 07:04AM

I really don't understand the mentality of the OP. Let's all forget what happened, put the head down, and carry on like before only this time we work even harder for less? How about we finally demand some justice in this damn country and hold those who drove us into this ditch responsible for their actions?

There's no point whatsoever trying to move forward if we don't fix the problems that got us here first because this situation will only happen again and again and again. That means charging and convicting the corrupt politicians, bankers, developers, civil servants, the lot. Strip them of their assets and give them a taste of what the rest of us have to deal with. That's the only way people will accept having to pay for their mistakes. I will personally never pay another penny of income tax if I can help it so long as those who are guilty are allowed to escape justice. Simple as that.

femur61 · 05-11-2010 07:20AM

geespot wrote: »

seen how gutless the goverment was it was like taking candy off a baby we need a strong labour goverment to stand up to the unions

Sorry for my ignorance but aren't they they one and the same. I will side with who ever stands up to the bearded ones and the one with the comb over.

Seriously, why do we let ourselves to be taken for mugs, are we not worth more. We fought 800 years for our independance and when we finally got it we have literally runined the country.

bondjames · 05-11-2010 10:16AM

When the IMF or the EU takes over us the first thing for the chop is the corporation Tax
Germany pay 30% corporation tax and they have being waiting a long time to get a reason to take away our 12.5%
Ireland will no longer be allowed to support private sector job in multinationals and there will be 2 options for those working in them
1) You join the dole
2) You take a 17.5% pay cut
But be warned no American multinational is going to reduce there profits to stay in Ireland and pay a 30% tax
Public sector will take another 15% cut also

bladespin · 05-11-2010 10:27AM

bondjames wrote: »

When the IMF or the EU takes over us the first thing for the chop is the corporation Tax
Germany pay 30% corporation tax and they have being waiting a long time to get a reason to take away our 12.5%
Ireland will no longer be allowed to support private sector job in multinationals and there will be 2 options for those working in them
1) You join the dole
2) You take a 17.5% pay cut
But be warned no American multinational is going to reduce there profits to stay in Ireland and pay a 30% tax
Public sector will take another 15% cut also

I wouldn't bet on that happening, they're more interested in reigning in our spending than where we get our tax from, if anything they will want prorerty taxes first ans income tax increases second, corpo tax can remain the same as they will view it as a good earner for the counrty (they want their money back, not equal taxes, that's another fight).

Amhran Nua · 05-11-2010 10:49AM

Drumpot wrote: »

There was greed by everybody. Nobody wanted to know where the money was coming from, all was great while the going was good.

Except some of us were shouting ourselves hoarse trying to warn others of what was happening. Collective responsibility is both unjust and dangerous, since it invites future problems to take place without fear of retribution. Yes, you are broadly right, we all need to work together. But if it turns out that we need to balance the books by cutting public sector numbers and wages by 25%, you might not get the solidarity from those who have lost their jobs. If you want the country to progress, this is something that has to be recognised and prepared for.

Amhran Nua · 05-11-2010 10:51AM

bondjames wrote: »

2) You take a 17.5% pay cut

That won't do it either, pay is a trivial concern to those multinationals which locate here for tax reasons. Corporate tax goes up, they are gone.

The "attack" begins . . Together we stand or fall . .

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