The "attack" begins . . Together we stand or fall . .

Drumpot

The proverbial is finally hitting the fan. . What many of us knew is finally happening. . The IMF is looking over the Irish Sea and the bond markets are looking for more to subsidise our financial needs. .

If people thought it’s been painful for the last 2 years, the next 5 could be the harshest felt in this country for some time. . .

As far as I am concerned, how this country will survive will be dependent on several factors, but the ones we can control of could determine how we come through this turbulent times. Do we want to fight for bits of scraps (I am entitled to this) or are we going to come together and work collectively to get our country back on its feet..

Self vested groups declaring that they are being "attacked" need to be kicked into touch. Its not just the public service or Pensioners that are feeling the pain, the entire country in some form is feeling it. This notion that a section of society is being singled out for "pain" is ridiculous to the point of ignorance.

I say to the public service that thinks it is "entitled" to maintain its living standards, the reason your wages were benchmarked was because the concept of "sharing in the countries prosperity" was implemented. To expect Job security and a no salary cuts when the country is on the brink of collapse is completely wrong (generous way of putting it).

I say to the pensioner who says "I worked for my Pension", I say, you did and you will continue to get one. The monetary amount you get today was a result of the increases allowable during the boom years, but the country cannot sustain it. You will continue to get a pension, just a lower amount.

In both cases the argument that these sections of society had nothing to do with the collapse of our country and that they should not share the burden of pain, is unfounded and a misguided perception based on the principle of entitlement. The public service and Pensioners would represent a significant amount of the electorate to significantly decide who gets into power and who is left on the outside. While on sound bites on TV they all protest that they didn’t vote FF, its fair to assume that a majority of these people were indeed voting for FF while their salaries were being benchmarked and their pensions on the up. So, they did contribute to the current crisis in some form.

Not just that, because of these mistakes my child and unborn child will still be paying off for the mistakes of this generation (that includes Pensioners) for something they had nothing to do with. These two sections of society have the loudest voice and as such believe the rhetoric that they say, I am only mentioning them because these sections of society feel that their concerns are most important and they need to be brought down to the levels that the rest of us are on. My point is simple; everybody in this country has a role to play in getting this country back on its feet. No section of society has a right to plead ignorance or claim that they didn’t in some way contribute to this countries collapse. Different people had different levels of contributions towards it, but however big or small that was, we are all in it together.

Accountability is a desire we ALL want to see, but it will not fix the country. Of course it should happen, but it should not let us take our eyes off getting the country back on its feet. I think the Germans are a fantastic example of how a nation can collectively pick itself back up from ruins. Anecdotally you don’t hear of Many Germans who say “well I didnt follow Hitler”, they all either think they were shameful in following him or didn’t do enough to stop him. In this country we waste time pointing fingers and trying to wriggle out of responsibility (and our government definitely mirrors our society). Is it not fair to assume that a country pulling in the same direction would have a better chance of prosperity, then vested groups pushing their own agenda's?

We are a relatively young country and our misguided exuberance and poor political structure (coupled with the way people choose to vote) has led us to this juncture. We can have a more balanced society with accountability being more prominent, making it less corrupt but we have to make this an integral part of how we vote. I really believe that if we all work together, take collective responsibility and work harder for less, we will come out of this stronger. The people with nothing but bad things to say and comments like “well I don’t see why I should have to pay for this”, should be shipped off on the SS-Smug and allowed to waste their own time while the rest of us try to achieve something special. Nothing positive comes out of being negative; you can awknowledge bad things and mistakes made without being negative (constructive criticism). We need to be more about what we can achieve and less about what we cannot do. Let’s stop beating ourselves up, get on with things, take the pain and make our country a better place to live.

Glenalla

+1

Richard tea

So to sum up your point, we should work harder and longer hours for less pay

talla10

Together we stand or divided we fall?

We fell two years ago when the government began its campaign of seperating public and private sector and creating a rift so no body could see how bad we were at the time and how Anglo and other banks lied their asses off to be covered in the bank guarantee scheme.

I really dont see any way market confidence can be restored in a matter of months. The IMF is coming IMO and Bertie, Cowen and Co has brought this upon us. And we thought Charlie was bad!!

dan_d

Drumpot, I'm not always in agreement with you, but I think you're dead right!!

Enough with the finger pointing and childish whinging. More than enough. We've all established we're not to blame. So let's get on with the solutions.

Drumpot

talla10 wrote: »

Together we stand or divided we fall?

We fell two years ago when the government began its campaign of seperating public and private sector and creating a rift so no body could see how bad we were at the time and how Anglo and other banks lied their asses off to be covered in the bank guarantee scheme.

I really dont see any way market confidence can be restored in a matter of months. The IMF is coming IMO and Bertie, Cowen and Co has brought this upon us. And we thought Charlie was bad!!

the government didnt have to have a campaign pitching the public v Private sector. The Unions did all the damage with their awful self indulged rhetoric that pretty much said that anybody who is a member of the union should not have to pay for this mess . . The government didnt have to do anything . .

I am proposing a longer term solution to a problem that has plagued this country since it was formed. People need to grow up and understand that the country hasnt just fallen into depression because of a few dodgy decisions made by murky characters in the shadows. There was greed by everybody. Nobody wanted to know where the money was coming from, all was great while the going was good.

As a society, people are focusing on "working more for less" as if they are entitled to keep their current salary out of some sort of commandment "thou shalt not let thy living standards be effected by anything thy shalt not think thy was responsible for". Seriously, if people actually put down the pitchforks and looked at what they are doing and objectively/rationally thought about what they are achieving by moaning and ignoring the perilous state of this country, they would be able to take a step in the right direction.

Life is tough, but the people of Ireland were pampered and their votes were bought. Now we have to pay for our sins. . Sure, there are people who will always have somebody else to blame but I think society got what it wanted . .

Denial - Anger - Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance

Denial (Not my fault, I didnt vote FF or the lame opposition etc)
Anger - (Fk the bankers, builders etc)
Bargaining - (bankers should goto jail, labour party will sort us out)
Depression - (whats the point, we are fked, lets all indulge in reading the awful negative media and kill ourselves slowly)
Acceptance - (We are where we are, what can we do to get back up!).

Only when we accept what has happened and work to move forward will we be able to get back on our feet as a nation . .

Smiegal

Drumpot,

I read your post. In one part of it you admire the Germans for not blaming each other but instead take collective blame. I admire that too.

However, in another part of your post you directly attack and blame both pensioners and all Public Service staff for the mess we are in by voting in FF...

Double standards Drumpot, Double Standards.

For the record Drumpot I think what annoys most people is not themselves getting cut or hit in some way as you say, but instead others getting away with everything.... Banks, Politicians etc...

Dannyboy83

I worked for 1year in IT Support on €20k p.a. and 2 years in Software dev on €24k p.a. during the boom.
I've been supporting my unemployed girlfriend with whom i co-habit from my current measely salary for the last 2.5 years as she has been denied welfare time and time again.

I didn't take any mortgages or loans ( I wasn't entitled to anyway!)

I refute your claim of 'collective responsibility' and accept no part in it.

If people had any idea how we've lived for the last 6 years, I genuinely believe they'd be in collective hysterics on the floor.

In all honesty, I don't view these cuts as a bad thing, I think they are probably the best thing that are gonna happen to my generation, some of us might finally have a chance.;)

I have never lived the good life so I'm genuinely unconcerned.
I already can't afford to visit the dentist or doctor, can't afford to smoke.............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality?

skelliser

OP I WILL MAKE THIS CLEAR!!

We are imo still very much in the anger face!

I WANT JAIL TIME FOR SOME AND HUMILIATION FOR OTHERS.

Now it looks like i might not get my jail time but humiliations are on the cards at the next election.

when i get my chance to stick it to Fianna Fail in the coming election i will be happy. Then i can move on to the next phase with getting on with repairing my country as best i can.

Until then i will not accept anymore bull**** from these traitors to ireland: Fianna Fail

flutered

............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality? [/QUOTE]

at a guess directly and indirectly another 1k next year, then another cut the year after, so be very afraid that you job does not disappear with the recession.

Dannyboy83

flutered wrote: »

............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality?

at a guess directly and indirectly another 1k next year, then another cut the year after, so be very afraid that you job does not disappear with the recession.

LOL, as I said, genuinely unconcerned.

If I were made redundant, it's likely I would have an increase in disposable income, as my girlfriend would then also be able to receive social welfare.

I have dental problems amounting to about €2k which I cannot afford to get fixed at all.
If I were unemployed, medical card - this would be seen to.
I have a pilonidal sinus, I have a number of health issues which I cannot afford to get treated at all, despite paying health insurance.

Rent assistance et al.
TBH, being made redundant would probably be a step up for us.
Crazy when you think how much tax I pay, but that's the reality for a lot of us.

The only people quakin in their booties right about now are the people who've been creaming it and they know it. They can accept the responsibility, I won't.

changes

talla10 wrote: »

Together we stand or divided we fall?

We fell two years ago when the government began its campaign of seperating public and private sector and creating a rift so no body could see how bad we were at the time and how Anglo and other banks lied their asses off to be covered in the bank guarantee scheme.

You can sometimes get a fresh perspective when looking at from the outside. Go and look at page 105 on BBC teletext and tell me if the government hasn't pulled a fast one by pitting public against private.

geespot

not everybody prospered during the so called celtic tiger mostly those involved in the building trade and related areas in banking estate agents and people lucky enough to have sites to sell. the public servants were jealous of say for instance how much a bricky might be earning and demanded equity of pay (regardless of the fact that the bricky was actually working for his money) anyway between the greedy unions and gutless goverment they got there rise and then the unions and the goverment in a bid to show how caring and generous they where give recipents of social welfare anice rise aswell and as usual the majority joe soap financed it all (some of which also believed the celtic tiger **** and bought cars and houses they couldnt afford on the basis that mortgage was some sort of present and not a loan)

geespot

remember the blue flu and the nurse strike the goverment caved in and that opened the floodgates once the unions seen how gutless the goverment was it was like taking candy off a baby we need a strong labour goverment to stand up to the unions

bladespin

skelliser wrote: »

OP I WILL MAKE THIS CLEAR!!

We are imo still very much in the anger face!

I WANT JAIL TIME FOR SOME AND HUMILIATION FOR OTHERS.

Absolutely, I doubt you'll ever see Ireland stand together as OP suggests without some sort of justice for those who caused all of this.

Even now I can't stand the idea of doing my bit when Brian Cowen is still at the helm, surely understanding the anger of the nation he should have just gone, he, for me, is the face of the problem, his ineptitude and laziness as minister for finance have caused this mess.

I love my country but at the moment I feel it's rotten to the core.

geespot

think some people or struggling to understand what a recession is been on the road all day and the number of 08+ bmw mercs etc on road. its not a problem wen you cant afford to go on that skying holiday again this winter or might have to sell one of the holiday homes but defo not the one in the south of france or even when you have to fly ryanair instead of aerlingus

flutered

dannyboy, you need to lake a look at the citizens information website, a medical card is not automatic, neither is free dental care, the scratcher is not all it is made out to be, i was on it a few times, and never liked it, one of the times it was 3 pounds and six shillings a week, rent allowance is going to be hit, the scrarch has to take a hit, pensions will take a hit, my 201 euro is going to disappear, i would say to 190, hopefully i am wrong, health care is going to be hit, me thinks your lol days are numbered.

changes

This is now a major problem for the younger generation and the working classes. Alot of the older generation and upper middle class people made their money during the boom and are comfortable. There are still lots of people running around in nice cars, have no mortgage and still go on their holidays a few times a year.

The pain will be felt by the rest of us. The under 45's and the working classes be they public or private are now going to be left with the bill.

BTW all of the current government and the people making the major decisions (including higher civil servants) are in the group that are comfortable.

geespot

if you where in any other country and on welfare or minimum wage you would be just about scraping by not in this country i know people on the dole they are laughing and know of ones who have left a job because it wasnt worth there while why work when you can get as much for staying at home a 10% cut is the minimum possible

bladespin

changes wrote: »

This is now a major problem for the younger generation and the working classes. Alot of the older generation and upper middle class people made their money during the boom and are comfortable. There are still lots of people running around in nice cars, have no mortgage and still go on their holidays a few times a year.

The pain will be felt by the rest of us. The under 45's and the working classes be they public or private are now going to be left with the bill.

BTW all of the current government and the people making the major decisions (including higher civil servants) are in the group that are comfortable.

Don't fool yourself, there's plenty under 45 that are comfortable too, about the same proportion of over 45s are on the bread line, living beyond their means on borrowed time hoping something good will come along.

So many young people invested in their homes, so many of the others invested in the construction and property, one's in negative equity the other is bankrupt.

Latchy

bladespin wrote: »

I love my country but at the moment I feel it's rotten to the core.

Although I dont live here now, I to love my country and it saddens me to see it get screwed up when it had so much going for it .I to think to a certain degree there always was corruption but it was called you scratch my back , I'll scratch yours ,to others it was same ol same, looking after no 1 and some people ok .... many lost the run of themselfs .It just took the downturn for it to be exposed a bit more .So when the writing was on the wall and somebody was crying 'Wolfe ' where were the brains of the country saying ' halt this madness now ' ? .... who was listening ? I expect many knew what was going to happen but like rabbits caught in the headlights didn't like upsetting the balance to see the dangers lurking ahead and it came to all this .

Drumpot

Smiegal wrote: »

Drumpot,

I read your post. In one part of it you admire the Germans for not blaming each other but instead take collective blame. I admire that too.

However, in another part of your post you directly attack and blame both pensioners and all Public Service staff for the mess we are in by voting in FF...

Double standards Drumpot, Double Standards.

For the record Drumpot I think what annoys most people is not themselves getting cut or hit in some way as you say, but instead others getting away with everything.... Banks, Politicians etc...

I didnt blame pensioners and Public service for this mess, please quote me where I said it was all their fault. I said they contributed. My point with the Germans doing nothing, was considered just as bad as fanning the flames of Nazi Propaganda . . Your inability to properly comprehend my post is highlighted no better then in this statement .

I clearly stated that the reason I singled out these two sections of society was because they have the loudest voice and as such they feel that it makes them the most important people in terms of how pain should be portioned out. . Once again, I didnt blame them for what happened. I blame the greed of society (Im sorry I had to actually spell that out for you).

So no, it wasnt double standards, it was simply you not reading/understanding my post . .

Drumpot

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I worked for 1year in IT Support on €20k p.a. and 2 years in Software dev on €24k p.a. during the boom.
I've been supporting my unemployed girlfriend with whom i co-habit from my current measely salary for the last 2.5 years as she has been denied welfare time and time again.

I didn't take any mortgages or loans ( I wasn't entitled to anyway!)

I refute your claim of 'collective responsibility' and accept no part in it.

If people had any idea how we've lived for the last 6 years, I genuinely believe they'd be in collective hysterics on the floor.

In all honesty, I don't view these cuts as a bad thing, I think they are probably the best thing that are gonna happen to my generation, some of us might finally have a chance.;)

I have never lived the good life so I'm genuinely unconcerned.
I already can't afford to visit the dentist or doctor, can't afford to smoke.............what are they gonna take from me? My sense of inequality?

Ive never lived the "good life" either. Never earned more then 26k and I am in serious trouble financially . . What has that got to do with anything ?

Oh I wanted a house for my family, shoot me, not as an investment property . . You say that you werent entitled to take out loans or mortgages, which means what exactly ? The very fact you said it means you may be in a differant situation then you are in now (prob better off that you couldnt) but are judging others in your ivory tower simply because you can.

You "refute my claim" of collective responsibility . . So what exactly do you propose ? That we all go in differant directions and that the country will sort itself out by differant vested interest groups trying to get themselves looked after ?

Or perhaps you were marching on the streets when all the money was being made and you disagreed with the way the country was being run ? What exactly did you do to try to make our country better ? Or did you just bury your head in the sand and presume that the running of our country was somebody elses responsibility ?

This is one of the problems of this country. People think voting , not voting or not giving a flying fk about how our country is run, is automatically a "get out of jail" card in responsibility when the sh(t hits the fan. Like my example with the Germans, doing nothing doesnt absolve you of your responsibility as a voter. If more people took their votes more important we wouldnt be in this mess.

People need to grow up and start taking responsibility for our country . . Until that happens, we will be stuck trying to get by with governments voted in by desperate people simply looking to pawn the pain off on others and nobody will be a winner . .

SkepticOne

What is happening is that money is being taken off the general population to compensate risk takers for their mistakes to the detriment of the economy.

Why should we all stand together to support that? Standing together is a great thing but it should be for the good of the country not the good of the few.

You say we stand or fall together. Well it looks like we're taking the fall.

SkepticOne

Drumpot wrote: »

You "refute my claim" of collective responsibility . . So what exactly do you propose ? That we all go in differant directions and that the country will sort itself out by differant vested interest groups trying to get themselves looked after?

I think the problem is that you see only two options. 1. We all make sacrifices together for the good of the state. 2. We all look for handouts from the state. Both have the state at the centre.

Whilst I'm not an anti-statist, I feel in this particular case, the state apparatus is part of the problem. In the aftermath of the bubble bursting, the government made policy decision that amounted to a denial of the problem. I believe NAMA and the various protections offered to risk taking bond holders as well some other policies have exacerbated the problem.

I see part of the solution, therefore, as letting things take their course without government intervention. For example I think the government should stop propping up the property market and let prices reach their natural level. This might mean properties in ghost estates being bought up for 10K but so be it. The sooner prices hit bottom the sooner they will rise again.

The problem I have with your opening post is that you don't address what we should be standing together for. Should we be standing together to support an even bigger hole being dug for ourselves? If so, count me out.

PanchoVilla

I really don't understand the mentality of the OP. Let's all forget what happened, put the head down, and carry on like before only this time we work even harder for less? How about we finally demand some justice in this damn country and hold those who drove us into this ditch responsible for their actions?

There's no point whatsoever trying to move forward if we don't fix the problems that got us here first because this situation will only happen again and again and again. That means charging and convicting the corrupt politicians, bankers, developers, civil servants, the lot. Strip them of their assets and give them a taste of what the rest of us have to deal with. That's the only way people will accept having to pay for their mistakes. I will personally never pay another penny of income tax if I can help it so long as those who are guilty are allowed to escape justice. Simple as that.

femur61

geespot wrote: »

seen how gutless the goverment was it was like taking candy off a baby we need a strong labour goverment to stand up to the unions

Sorry for my ignorance but aren't they they one and the same. I will side with who ever stands up to the bearded ones and the one with the comb over.

Seriously, why do we let ourselves to be taken for mugs, are we not worth more. We fought 800 years for our independance and when we finally got it we have literally runined the country.

bondjames

When the IMF or the EU takes over us the first thing for the chop is the corporation Tax
Germany pay 30% corporation tax and they have being waiting a long time to get a reason to take away our 12.5%
Ireland will no longer be allowed to support private sector job in multinationals and there will be 2 options for those working in them
1) You join the dole
2) You take a 17.5% pay cut
But be warned no American multinational is going to reduce there profits to stay in Ireland and pay a 30% tax
Public sector will take another 15% cut also

bladespin

bondjames wrote: »

When the IMF or the EU takes over us the first thing for the chop is the corporation Tax
Germany pay 30% corporation tax and they have being waiting a long time to get a reason to take away our 12.5%
Ireland will no longer be allowed to support private sector job in multinationals and there will be 2 options for those working in them
1) You join the dole
2) You take a 17.5% pay cut
But be warned no American multinational is going to reduce there profits to stay in Ireland and pay a 30% tax
Public sector will take another 15% cut also

I wouldn't bet on that happening, they're more interested in reigning in our spending than where we get our tax from, if anything they will want prorerty taxes first ans income tax increases second, corpo tax can remain the same as they will view it as a good earner for the counrty (they want their money back, not equal taxes, that's another fight).

Amhran Nua

Drumpot wrote: »

There was greed by everybody. Nobody wanted to know where the money was coming from, all was great while the going was good.

Except some of us were shouting ourselves hoarse trying to warn others of what was happening. Collective responsibility is both unjust and dangerous, since it invites future problems to take place without fear of retribution. Yes, you are broadly right, we all need to work together. But if it turns out that we need to balance the books by cutting public sector numbers and wages by 25%, you might not get the solidarity from those who have lost their jobs. If you want the country to progress, this is something that has to be recognised and prepared for.

Amhran Nua

bondjames wrote: »

2) You take a 17.5% pay cut

That won't do it either, pay is a trivial concern to those multinationals which locate here for tax reasons. Corporate tax goes up, they are gone.

jmayo

dan_d wrote: »

Drumpot, I'm not always in agreement with you, but I think you're dead right!!

Enough with the finger pointing and childish whinging. More than enough. We've all established we're not to blame. So let's get on with the solutions.

Everytime I see one of these comments I will come out and fight it.

The ones always telling us to move on, to stop the finger wagging, to stop the whinging are probably the very ones that benefits most from sweeping things under the carpet.
Yeah lets move on and forget who exactly have got us here.
Ah shure isn't everyone suffering, shure poor all simon kelly has to leave his Porsche in the drive of wife's house with a flat tyre. :rolleyes:

Some people have likened out current situation to that faced by demorcatic countries in time of war.
Well guess what happens to incompetent leaders in time of war ?
They get fired and if they have indulged in what amounts to treachery against the state and it's citizens they get shot.
They are not just left in charge in the vain hope that they will somehow not lead the people into another disastrous costly folly.

To even show our current leadership in a worse light, in other countries most leaders have the decency to step down and admit they have failed when they have led their nation to such a catastropic state.

Here they refuse to do so and bluster their way ahead.
Worse still we the people allow them get away with it. :mad:

You can't expect people to follow the same leaders that have led us to this situation, who have wasted our future through greed, incompetence and self interest in protecting their supporters.

Drumpot wrote: »

...
Denial - Anger - Bargaining - Depression - Acceptance

Denial (Not my fault, I didnt vote FF or the lame opposition etc)
Anger - (Fk the bankers, builders etc)
Bargaining - (bankers should goto jail, labour party will sort us out)
Depression - (whats the point, we are fked, lets all indulge in reading the awful negative media and kill ourselves slowly)
Acceptance - (We are where we are, what can we do to get back up!).

Only when we accept what has happened and work to move forward will we be able to get back on our feet as a nation . .

You forgot somethings that usually happen in other democratic countries.
It is called Accountability and RESPONSIBILITY.

So far two yearss after the banking fiasco we have had no single person held accountable.
In fact they have been given hadnsome lump sum payoffs and pension top ups.

BTW is it truly debatable if we can really call ourselves a true democracy anymore, since people need to go to court to assert the rights of citizens to have representation.

SkepticOne wrote: »

What is happening is that money is being taken off the general population to compensate risk takers for their mistakes to the detriment of the economy.

Why should we all stand together to support that? Standing together is a great thing but it should be for the good of the country not the good of the few.

You say we stand or fall together. Well it looks like we're taking the fall.

Well said.

Dannyboy83

Not sure about the ECB messing with the corporate tax rate, seems unlikely at this stage, given how dependent we are on it now.

Screwing with it just doesn't make any sense if it's the ECB bailing us out, as it would be like spending huge money to fix a patient's lungs, in order to bring him to stand in front of a firing squad the subsequent day.

dan_d

jmayo wrote: »

Everytime I see one of these comments I will come out and fight it.

The ones always telling us to move on, to stop the finger wagging, to stop the whinging are probably the very ones that benefits most from sweeping things under the carpet.
Yeah lets move on and forget who exactly have got us here.
Ah shure isn't everyone suffering, shure poor all simon kelly has to leave his Porsche in the drive of wife's house with a flat tyre. :rolleyes:

Em yes. Sitting here unemployed for the last 4 months applying to every job under the sun. I benefitted hugely from this situation....on my 35k a year job for the last 5 years since I left college and prior to being made unemployed. The SW I receive every week is a massive benefit, along with all the other benefits I don't qualify for......oh no, wait.....

Seriously. My point, jmayo, is that we're all sitting around going "it's your fault. I didn't buy a house. I don't have a credit card. I didn't drive a big car". Well SOMEBODY did. In fact lots of somebody's did. Pointing the finger at each other doesn't solve the problem.

I am absolutely all for accountability among those in charge and most specifically, those in charge during the boom. Every last one of them should be stripped of everything they own.

BUT - pointing the finger at each other, ie us boring, normal people out here, is now gone beyond the ridiculous. We've just come to a complete full stop. Around here in particular every idea for business, solutions for the problems we have...any drop of optimism is shot down, scorned and laughed at. What are we like??? Yes it's time we got over ourselves, and tried coming up with a few solutions because there sure as hell isn't anyone in charge trying to come up with any (though I do believe this budget might be a step in the right direction). And direct our anger towards demanding that those who put us here pay for it, instead of at each other.

changes

jmayo wrote: »

Everytime I see one of these comments I will come out and fight it.

The ones always telling us to move on, to stop the finger wagging, to stop the whinging are probably the very ones that benefits most from sweeping things under the carpet.
Yeah lets move on and forget who exactly have got us here.
Ah shure isn't everyone suffering, shure poor all simon kelly has to leave his Porsche in the drive of wife's house with a flat tyre. :rolleyes:

Some people have likened out current situation to that faced by demorcatic countries in time of war.
Well guess what happens to incompetent leaders in time of war ?
They get fired and if they have indulged in what amounts to treachery against the state and it's citizens they get shot.
They are not just left in charge in the vain hope that they will somehow not lead the people into another disastrous costly folly.

To even show our current leadership in a worse light, in other countries most leaders have the decency to step down and admit they have failed when they have led their nation to such a catastropic state.

Here they refuse to do so and bluster their way ahead.
Worse still we the people allow them get away with it. :mad:

You can't expect people to follow the same leaders that have led us to this situation, who have wasted our future through greed, incompetence and self interest in protecting their supporters.



You forgot somethings that usually happen in other democratic countries.
It is called Accountability and RESPONSIBILITY.

So far two yearss after the banking fiasco we have had no single person held accountable.
In fact they have been given hadnsome lump sum payoffs and pension top ups.

BTW is it truly debatable if we can really call ourselves a true democracy anymore, since people need to go to court to assert the rights of citizens to have representation.



Well said.

Its a complete embarrassment, the fighting irish my aras. We have proven ourselves to be meek, lack backbone, don't demand standards, subservient to the elite and crippled by begrudgery and a lack of vision.


We should never forget who caused this.


We sat by while half of them transfered their remaining assets to their wives.

We allow FF to try and flap and scramble their way out of a mess they created.

We hand over a 50 billion bailout and don't even demand to know who we are actually paying this too.

We won't try and get some money out of those that have benefited most over the boom for fear of upsetting them and that they might take their money elsewhere or won't create more jobs.

We meekly accept cuts to almost every poor/low paid/middle income person in the land while developers and bankers remain in their grand houses and earn up to 200K to manage their ruined empires.

We are a joke!!!

boatbuilder

As I see it, if you are 35 years old or less, you're screwed because you've got a big mortgage, kids and have been taking the brunt of the many sneaky little extra taxes that are being introduced left right and centre.

If you have the same circumstances but are over 35, by and large you are sorted. You have benefited from the tax breaks from the boom years, probably paid off most of your mortgage.

I can see this pattern being repeated again and again when I look around at my friends and family. Somewhere around the mid-30 year old mark, there is a massive difference in financial comfort. Its just not fair and the government will pay the price in the next election. To have created such a massive in-equality within such a short space of time is really breath-taking.

bladespin

boatbuilder wrote: »

As I see it, if you are 35 years old or less, you're screwed because you've got a big mortgage, kids and have been taking the brunt of the many sneaky little extra taxes that are being introduced left right and centre.

If you have the same circumstances but are over 35, by and large you are sorted. You have benefited from the tax breaks from the boom years, probably paid off most of your mortgage.

I can see this pattern being repeated again and again when I look around at my friends and family. Somewhere around the mid-30 year old mark, there is a massive difference in financial comfort. Its just not fair and the government will pay the price in the next election. To have created such a massive in-equality within such a short space of time is really breath-taking.

Complete hogwash.

That's a massive generalisation, there's no evidence to show any gap based on age, on a whole we're all debt ridden, all ages.

As many people took the first step onto the property ladder as moved up it.

flutered

were not dff on their election manifesto go on about responsibility and accountability, as were the stealth tax gombeens.

jmayo

dan_d wrote: »

Em yes. Sitting here unemployed for the last 4 months applying to every job under the sun. I benefitted hugely from this situation....on my 35k a year job for the last 5 years since I left college and prior to being made unemployed. The SW I receive every week is a massive benefit, along with all the other benefits I don't qualify for......oh no, wait.....

Seriously. My point, jmayo, is that we're all sitting around going "it's your fault. I didn't buy a house. I don't have a credit card. I didn't drive a big car". Well SOMEBODY did. In fact lots of somebody's did. Pointing the finger at each other doesn't solve the problem.

I point the finger at people who overspent foolishly only when these same people happen to start mouthing off about personal NAMA's, indulging in jingle mail and thus dumping their loans on the rest of us or if they are staunch ffers who think the sun still shines out of lenihan's hole.
Otherwise you will find I don't blame the ordinary people who just tried to get on with their lives and had often felt they had to buy.
Lots of people were too gullible and greedy.
But most of these are trying at least to pay off their debts.

I do blame our government(s), top ranking public sector idiots, top bankers, developers/builders, vested interests in legal profession, construction supply, and public sector dominated unions for the mess we are in.

Just saying lets move on and stop bitching ain't going to help if we still see the david drumms, the seanie fitzpatricks, the michael fingeltons, the patrick nearys, the roddy molloys still enjoying relative wealth all the while running rings around our police and state investigative bodies.

How does it make some person feel when they have just opened a demand letter from the bank only to hear simon kelly spouting drivel and reminiscing about the glory days of the boom when he sat on fitzpatricks chair, even though he owes the Irish banks/NAMA and thus the Irish taxpayers hundreds of millions ?


How does it make someone feel when they get demand from revenue for money their business no longer have, thanks to other incompetent possibly fraudently run companies like Pierses, as they see our ex taosieach and person in cheif responsible for the mess sitting in a cupboard floggin a Briotish rag, knowing he has gotten a tax break on his book even though he hasn't a tax clearance cert ?

We require justice, not in 5 years, but now today.
If people believe the system is just then they will be more willing to put their shoulder to the wheel and get on with things.
As it is we just see a shambles of a system where the connected ones still have their nice houses, their use of jets, their pensions, while we the normal people are being told we have to take the cuts for the good of the country.

Screw that for a game of cowboys.
In any other normal country these people would have resigned, be in jail, be penniless and would be damm well afraid for their lives.
Here they just have to watch what restaurants they may frequent and what golf competitions they win at.

Is that what Connolly, Pearse, Boland, Collins and many thousands more died for ?

dan_d wrote: »

I am absolutely all for accountability among those in charge and most specifically, those in charge during the boom. Every last one of them should be stripped of everything they own.

Now you are talking.

marglin

kinda agree with the sentiment that we're just gonna have to pick ourselves up and start again, but would it be ok if we got to see some people punished first?

dont mind that 'we all spent foolishly'
a)it's not true
b)so what if a few people splashed out when they had money, it's what people do, i never had any money but if i was well off in 2005 and had been>18 wud've defo enjoyed the good life. doing that shouldn't ruin an economy, your bank manager should've said no to your loan, his manager shouldve kept an eye on how much was being given out, and so on up the sorry chain to leinster house

Drumpot

In peoples anger they have once again gone away from the point of the post . .

Where have I said that there should not be accountability ?

Where have I said we should let the political elite continue to screw us all ?


All I have stated is that by being negative about our prospects, constantly talking ourselves down, slagging ourselves off and feeling helpless, we are achieving nothing . . Its not helping us progress in anyway, how can people not understand or see that ?

I am proposing that people vote a differant way for a better politician. The arguments that "there arent any" are not accurate. If most of a politicians voters say they want him to take a paycut, cut expenses and have more accountability in the public service, it would be done. . People have to prioritise the country aswell as their own self interests. If this is done and people put morals/ethics near the top of their checklist for voting in politicians, more people will benefit directly and indirectly.

Its gas because people are presuming I am papering over the cracks because they are failing to grasp the holistic view I am posting. I am all for what everybody gives out about, I just think the best way to achieve accountability etc is for a majority of the people of this country working together.

flutered

jmayo and dand, you guys have brought a smile to my tired old face today, thank you both, it is nice to meet some one who can express my sentiments.

wolfpawnat

geespot wrote: »

if you where in any other country and on welfare or minimum wage you would be just about scraping by not in this country i know people on the dole they are laughing and know of ones who have left a job because it wasnt worth there while why work when you can get as much for staying at home a 10% cut is the minimum possible

And here we go, attacking the SW AGAIN!!!!

Not everyone on SW is sponging the system. Not everyone on it wants to be there. And not everyone on it is a scumbags with Nike runners, Adidas trackies and smartphones.

The SW always will be attacked while the working condemn it, but I will say this. I would swap it for a job ANY day of the week!!!!

Pensioners were not hit last year, and the proposed 2.5% only takes just over the €5 off them, compared to others they are getting away lightly.

I do believe that if the IMF and Europe attack us, we will need to leave the Euro for a while and decide whether to remain in the EU. We are a backwater country, away from the mainland of Europe, we are expensive to ship to and we are too competitive on our Corporation tax. If that goes we are FúCKED completely. We need to think of us.

I know saying leaving Europe is extreme. But extreme difficulties need extreme solutions. I know Europe has done a lot for us, but we have done a lot for Europe too. And we need to put US first. They don't care about us, they don't want us, we are irrating due to our Constitution and we seem to have a nasty habit of voting down the treaties they wqant to pass and have to alter it for a measily 4 million people!!!!

Tim Robbins

Drumpot wrote: »

The proverbial is finally hitting the fan. ..

A new thread started for one big rant?

Is it time we have a new forum for people to have these rants?

Time for me to go to feedback.

maninasia

Drumpot wrote: »

In peoples anger they have once again gone away from the point of the post . .

Where have I said that there should not be accountability ?

Where have I said we should let the political elite continue to screw us all ?


All I have stated is that by being negative about our prospects, constantly talking ourselves down, slagging ourselves off and feeling helpless, we are achieving nothing . . Its not helping us progress in anyway, how can people not understand or see that ?

I am proposing that people vote a differant way for a better politician. The arguments that "there arent any" are not accurate. If most of a politicians voters say they want him to take a paycut, cut expenses and have more accountability in the public service, it would be done. . People have to prioritise the country aswell as their own self interests. If this is done and people put morals/ethics near the top of their checklist for voting in politicians, more people will benefit directly and indirectly.

Its gas because people are presuming I am papering over the cracks because they are failing to grasp the holistic view I am posting. I am all for what everybody gives out about, I just think the best way to achieve accountability etc is for a majority of the people of this country working together.

As another poster said, to get to that stage of 'working together' the government should go now as to accept responsibility for the mess they created (although the electorate voted them in even when the tide was obviously turning...maybe the majority secret FF voters should turn themselves in too ).

Anyway...your core point is correct, in that the only way to get Ireland back on it's feet is to get the economy in a robust shape, creating private sector jobs and investment again.

Idbatterim

Id question whether the "attack is beginning" or if the "reality check" is beginning!

bcalchess

changes wrote: »

Its a complete embarrassment, the fighting irish my aras. We have proven ourselves to be meek, lack backbone, don't demand standards, subservient to the elite and crippled by begrudgery and a lack of vision.


We should never forget who caused this.


We sat by while half of them transfered their remaining assets to their wives.

We allow FF to try and flap and scramble their way out of a mess they created.

We hand over a 50 billion bailout and don't even demand to know who we are actually paying this too.


We meekly accept cuts to almost every poor/low paid/middle income person in the land while developers and bankers remain in their grand houses and earn up to 200K to manage their ruined empires.

We are a joke!!!

Well said changes. There are still huge blunders being made each day which are exacerbating the dire situation we are all in and we are passively accepting the **** that is being thrown at us by the people in power. Its time to stand up for ourselves. Viva la revolucion!
Sadly In reality I can't see the dumbed masses of X- factor loving morons realising that there is another agenda. We are being robbed literally of our cash & metaphorically of our civil liberties & Sovereignty by our government & Europe. It truly is a living example of the "Shock Doctrine" and we are heading like dazed sheep towards the Abyss.

Sure it'll all be grand :-)
Baa Baa Baa

johnnyskeleton

How did this thread manage to get so far?

How many more of these boundless optimism for the future threads are we going to get?

They are completely lacking in any substance.

There is a massive difference between saying "Lets set up more widget factories" or some other constructive idea, and saying "let's stop moaning and start being positive".

Positivity itself doesn't help anyone.

Furthermore, ignoring what has gone on before is pointless, because there is little point in setting up a widgit factory if taxes and rates are going to drive you out of business when the inevitable chickens of the last few years come home to roost.

This call to optimism is like a person sick in bed taking about how they are going to run a marathon and the training they will do. Before they can even consider reaching peak fitness, they must first let their current illness work through their system and take the necessary medications. Unless we do that, trying to run a marathon when we can barely stand doesn't help at all.

femur61

changes wrote: »

We sat by while half of them transfered their remaining assets to their wives.

We allow FF to try and flap and scramble their way out of a mess they created.

We hand over a 50 billion bailout and don't even demand to know who we are actually paying this too.

We won't try and get some money out of those that have benefited most over the boom for fear of upsetting them and that they might take their money elsewhere or won't create more jobs.

We are a joke!!!

Unfortunately, you are right.

doc_17

the way it is in this this country is that the elite will be ok. "together we stand" holding them up above our shoulders while they are breaking our backs and making us take all the repurcusions, laughing at us the whole time.