Student Protest Kicks Off (see video only posts warning)

gbee · 03-11-2010 06:14PM

jock101 wrote: »

Like Abbeylara!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

What! An armed man walk towards you, you [as the armed police officer] put two bullets in him and he keeps coming at you! You shoot to kill then.

Never understood the fuss over this incident.

It wasn't me! · 03-11-2010 06:15PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

-Not kettling teenagers into a closed street by police on horse back
-Not driving an armoured van up a street that protesters are sitting on
-Not setting dogs on females
-Not stamping on protestors faces
-Not baton charging a peaceful demo

In general, basic levels of discipline and making some effort to distinguish between troublemakers and people lawfully protesting.

The Gardaí, yet again, make a situation far worse with kack handed, brutal tactics that are completely tactically unecessary. How many people occupied the Dept? 10? 15? The response to a small incident was appaling. You make it difficult on yourselves.

I said alternatives. Those are negative proposals. Outline the appropriate Garda response to prevent disruption to the business of the government and the commerce of the city, and to peacefully dissolve the protest within a reasonable time frame. Also, peaceful protest my arse, the aggression and violence in the air was thick, and it wasn't generated within the Gardai either.

amacachi · 03-11-2010 06:15PM

Denerick wrote: »

And I'm not disputing there was an element of police over-reaction either. On the other hand, if you're stupid enough to throw yourself into the front line like this and refuse to budge when asked, then you deserve to get bitten.

I've yet to see anything to suggest they over-reacted, the two pieces of footage showed the Gardaí blocking rather than charging and from what I've heard the person in hospital was put there by a bottle thrown by another protester.

vinny chase · 03-11-2010 06:15PM

You can't hold both sides either to the same standard in terms of their behaviour. A small, collection of idiots will always undermine a large collective attempt at a peaceful protest, but to say because some students got carried away that the Gardai have the right to lose the run of themselves is nonsense.

They are supposed to be trained properly in how to deal with these situations without the exact events that occurred today occurring. Instead of simply facilitating a peaceful protest and calling the bluff of the idiots who acted up, they have even aroused a measure of public sympathy for those fools now.

jock101 · 03-11-2010 06:16PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

You couldn't know any less, judging by this post, about either what's going on, the role of a police force, or the subsequent international investigation into Abbeylara. It's rare that a post manages to get so much wrong in so few words.

I have no trust in an amateur organisation that acts as a Police force for the benefit of a non democratic regime, which is known for serious corruption, Donegal, Abbeylara, Dame St. Protest, etc... Not to mention there behaviour or lack of it, along the border during the troubles.

I have nothing but contempt for that O'Duffy crowd!

Heavy handed actions against civilians, will eventually end in someone getting seriously hurt or killed. Which could kickstart a Greek style riot!

It wasn't me! · 03-11-2010 06:18PM

jock101 wrote: »

I have no trust in an amateur organisation that acts as a Police force for the benefit of a non democratic regime, which is known for serious corruption, Donegal, Abbeylara, Dame St. Protest, etc... Not to mention there behaviour or lack of it, along the border during the troubles.

I have nothing but contempt for that O'Duffy crowd!

Heavy handed actions against civilians, will eventually end in someone getting seriously hurt or killed. Which could kickstart a Greek style riot!

Would people please stop mentioning Abbeylara? The subsequent report and investigation into its conduct revealed that one of the key errors was that Gardai didn't shoot him an awful lot sooner and a lot more authoritatively, so it's hardly evidence of a brutal authoritarian police force. Also, your lack of trust doesn't mitgate against the fact that they are an arm of the state; not the government, but the state itself. As such, they are there to keep order. When elements wish to disrupt that order, they are the arm of the state responsible for removing those elements from society. The existence of a police force is a demonstration of a willingness to use force to keep peace. Therefore, when a police force does so, try not to be too surprised.

jock101 · 03-11-2010 06:18PM

gbee wrote: »

What! An armed man walk towards you, you [as the armed [police officer] put two bullets in him and he keeps coming at you! You shoot to kill then.

Never understood the fuss over this incident.

Known mentally ill man!:rolleyes: With a short range shotgun, they could have easily shot him in the leg or arm! Not execute him! Amateur thugs!

CiaranMT · 03-11-2010 06:19PM

Seifer wrote: »

Some major chips on shoulders in here regarding students and it's probably the same attitude amongst the gardai that resulted in their over-reaction.

This.

miseeire · 03-11-2010 06:20PM

I believe this is only the start of what will be a winter of discontent and violence.There are peaceful protesters and there are guards who want to uphold the law without unnecessary violence but unfortunately there are elements on both sides who only want to destroy and hurt.

OhNoYouDidn't · 03-11-2010 06:21PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I said alternatives. Those are negative proposals. Outline the appropriate Garda response to prevent disruption to the business of the government and the commerce of the city, and to peacefully dissolve the protest within a reasonable time frame. Also, peaceful protest my arse, the aggression and violence in the air was thick, and it wasn't generated within the Gardai either.

That protest was not 'peacefully dissolved within a reasonable timeframe'. You steamed into a load of teenagers on horseback, in riot gear and in a van.

Alternative is arrest the 10 troublemakers and let the 25,000 others perform their fundamental legal right to protest. Or detain them in the Dept until the rest of the march is gone.

They had a legal right to march and had all the necessary permits. Are you saying the Gardaí took an operational decision to end the protest before their permitted time?

Every time there is a public order issue, the Gardaí make a total balls of it. You either batter innocent people or are nowhere to be seen if the crowd might fight back. How come you are a lot braver when its students than Taxi drivers or Republicans?

amacachi · 03-11-2010 06:23PM

Not seeing much of an overreaction from the Gardaí here at least: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/education.html#video

It wasn't me! · 03-11-2010 06:24PM

jock101 wrote: »

Known mentally ill man!:rolleyes: With a short range shotgun, they could have easily shot him in the leg or arm! Not execute him! Amateur thugs!

You know very little about firearms or the accepted doctrine on the use by police forces of firearms in self-defence, obviously.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

That protest was not 'peacefully dissolved within a reasonable timeframe'. You steamed into a load of teenagers on horseback, in riot gear and in a van.

Alternative is arrest the 10 troublemakers and let the 25,000 others perform their fundamental legal right to protest. Or detain them in the Dept until the rest of the march is gone.

They had a legal right to march and had all the necessary permits. Are you saying the Gardaí took an operational decision to end the protest before their permitted time?

I never said it was. However, it was a lot more than teenagers out there. I have no doubt that the Gardai will receive harsh media treatment over this, but it's not going to be deserved from what I saw. The crowd was very ugly indeed.

03-11-2010 06:24PM

3 students in custody. Names and names of colleges have not been released

PanchoVilla · 03-11-2010 06:24PM

My utmost respect to the students who attended this protest. I just hope the brutality displayed by our "guardians of the peace" won't deter them from future protests. I'm actually disgusted by some of the comments here condemning these young people for standing up for their rights. If the Gardaí had not shown up in force and dressed in riot gear we would not have seen the violence we saw today. The Gardaí should be ashamed of themselves, but then police brutality is nothing new to them.

It wasn't me! · 03-11-2010 06:25PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

That protest was not 'peacefully dissolved within a reasonable timeframe'. You steamed into a load of teenagers on horseback, in riot gear and in a van.

Alternative is arrest the 10 troublemakers and let the 25,000 others perform their fundamental legal right to protest. Or detain them in the Dept until the rest of the march is gone.

They had a legal right to march and had all the necessary permits. Are you saying the Gardaí took an operational decision to end the protest before their permitted time?

Every time there is a public order issue, the Gardaí make a total balls of it. You either batter innocent people or are nowhere to be seen if the crowd might fight back. How come you are a lot braver when its students than Taxi drivers or Republicans?

Just to be clear, in case the use of "you" is directed at me, I'm not a Garda.

amacachi · 03-11-2010 06:26PM

PanchoVilla wrote: »

My utmost respect to the students who attended this protest. I just hope the brutality displayed by our "guardians of the peace" won't deter them from future protests. I'm actually disgusted by some of the comments here condemning these young people for standing up for their rights. If the Gardaí had not shown up in force and dressed up in riot gear we would not have seen the violence we saw today. The Gardaí should be ashamed of themselves, but then police brutality is nothing new to them.

Did you watch that video I posted? Would you like to point out where they were brutal? Or have you evidence other than the shrill whining of students who still had time to tweet all about it?

jock101 · 03-11-2010 06:27PM

amacachi wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/education.html#video Not seeing much of an overreaction from the Gardaí here at least: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/education.html#video

Really! What would you expect from the Ministry of Propaganda, RTE:rolleyes::rolleyes:
They make FOX news look decent!;)

03-11-2010 06:27PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Just to be clear, in case the use of "you" is directed at me, I'm not a Garda.

Sorry, off topic, but you have the most perfect username for this thread

OhNoYouDidn't · 03-11-2010 06:27PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

You know very little about firearms or the accepted doctrine on the use by police forces of firearms in self-defence, obviously.

IIRC the report took a major dump on you for how you allowed the siege to pan out - refusing him medication, access to his solicitor to negotiate an end to it etc.

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I never said it was. However, it was a lot more than teenagers out there. I have no doubt that the Gardai will receive harsh media treatment over this, but it's not going to be deserved from what I saw. The crowd was very ugly indeed.

the crowd got ugly after you started smashing them up.

There is a fundamental problem with the Gardai that they are inherently unable to deal with protests. You either go in too hard, or run for your lives. Do the POU do any training with experts in the field?

It wasn't me! · 03-11-2010 06:27PM

PanchoVilla wrote: »

If the Gardaí had not shown up in force and dressed in riot gear we would not have seen the violence we saw today. The Gardaí should be ashamed of themselves, but then police brutality is nothing new to them.

This is complete bollocks. If the Gardai had not had a substantial presence, there'd have been more mob bravery at various points, what Gardai were around would have been in a lot more danger, and tomorrow we'd have huge uproar over the lack of Garda presence.

Gman1 · 03-11-2010 06:27PM

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

They don't teach them target practice in Tronity then do they? Loike...:D

They should be sent to Finglas for training. lol

Denerick · 03-11-2010 06:32PM

amacachi wrote: »

Not seeing much of an overreaction from the Gardaí here at least: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/education.html#video

Jesus Christ. Peaceful protest my arse.

It wasn't me! · 03-11-2010 06:34PM

Papa Smut wrote: »

Sorry, off topic, but you have the most perfect username for this thread

Hadn't thought about that.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

IIRC the report took a major dump on you for how you allowed the siege to pan out - refusing him medication, access to his solicitor to negotiate an end to it etc.

And the media of course are widely acknowledged experts in hostage negotiation and dealing with mentally unstable people with firearms, of course. Best check with Indymedia before police conduct further operations. I'll make sure to send Garda HQ a note. By the way, I'm still not a Garda.

the crowd got ugly after you started smashing them up.

From what I saw, the crowd got ugly when people started getting a bit of dutch courage in them and seeing how far they could push their luck.

There is a fundamental problem with the Gardai that they are inherently unable to deal with protests. You either go in too hard, or run for your lives. Do the POU do any training with experts in the field?

It's not exactly basic policing either, the situation being completely unique, dynamic and with tides and emotions turning rapidly. Now, to be perfectly fair, the Gardai observe and direct dozens of protests every year, but when they turn violent, it's extremely difficult to respond properly, because the appropriate response isn't going to endear you to anyone.

amacachi · 03-11-2010 06:35PM

jock101 wrote: »

Really! What would you expect from the Ministry of Propaganda, RTE:rolleyes::rolleyes:
They make FOX news look decent!;)

I've seen 3 other videos from phones and none show the Gardaí, or the students for that matter, doing anything untoward.

Denerick wrote: »

Jesus Christ. Peaceful protest my arse.

In fairness ya have the usual mix of a couple of knackers lobbing stuff at a group of people and someone who can't deal with getting a bloodied nose.

PanchoVilla · 03-11-2010 06:35PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

This is complete bollocks. If the Gardai had not had a substantial presence, there'd have been more mob bravery at various points, what Gardai were around would have been in a lot more danger, and tomorrow we'd have huge uproar over the lack of Garda presence.

I've been to numerous protests and demonstrations, enough to know that a large police presence put everyone on edge. They could have simply stayed on the sidelines, prepared to move in if things got out of hand. I've actually been to protests where this tactic was used and it works.

This was a largely peaceful protest and the disproportionate Garda presence was completely unnecessary and only served to intimidate the peaceful protesters. You have no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim that it would have been more violent if there were less Gardaí visibly present.

LostinKildare · 03-11-2010 06:39PM

Denerick wrote: »

OK, storming is a strong term to use. But refusing to leave after being asked to is essentially violence by any other name. If I stood in your front hallway refusing to leave, would you be within your rights to push me out your front door?

FFS. Yesterday posters were screeching that splashing paint on someone is a shocking violent assault! Today, a sit-in protest -- a NONVIOLENT protest tactic championed by none other than GANDHI -- is "violence by any other name"?

Ridiculous. It is a perfectly legitimate -- and effective -- NONVIOLENT protest tactic.

It wasn't me! · 03-11-2010 06:39PM

PanchoVilla wrote: »

I've been to numerous protests and demonstrations, enough to know that a large police presence put everyone on edge. They could have simply stayed on the sidelines, prepared to move in if things got out of hand. I've actually been to protests where this tactic was used and it works.

This was a largely peaceful protest and the disproportionate Garda presence was completely unnecessary and only served to intimidate the peaceful protesters. You have no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim that it would have been more violent if there were less Gardaí visibly present.

Given the economic climate, dissatisfaction with the government, the strong visible presence of non-student elements within the protest, alcohol consumption, and various other factors, to not have a very strong presence, ready to intervene, would have been the height of stupidity. Policing protests is extremely delicate. There are times when what you describe is appropriate. This was not one of them. And what I saw was not peaceful; it was aggressive. Trust me when I say every Garda there was going to be at least as on-edge as anyone else, and with far worse odds.

Stinicker · 03-11-2010 06:50PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Given the economic climate, dissatisfaction with the government, the strong visible presence of non-student elements within the protest, alcohol consumption, and various other factors, to not have a very strong presence, ready to intervene, would have been the height of stupidity. Policing protests is extremely delicate. There are times when what you describe is appropriate. This was not one of them. And what I saw was not peaceful; it was aggressive. Trust me when I say every Garda there was going to be at least as on-edge as anyone else, and with far worse odds.

The gardai had no right to do what they done today and these are the facts.

Ireland is bankrupt
Fianna Fail are a corrupt party acting illegally
4 Constituencies are not getting their democratic representation
A judge has ruled the current government are infringing upon the Constitution
Fianna Fail will do anything to cling onto power and protect their corrupt elite
The ordinary person of Ireland is staring into a black abyss

The students were right to protest and there should be more protests against Fianna Fail.

If the Gardai are prepared to defend an illegal regime who are shredding our constitution and democracy then the Gardai are also the enemy and should be prepared for the consequences.

Every man and woman has a patriotic duty to get these traitorous crooks out of office - by force and violence as necessary.

PanchoVilla · 03-11-2010 06:52PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Given the economic climate, dissatisfaction with the government, the strong visible presence of non-student elements within the protest, alcohol consumption, and various other factors, to not have a very strong presence, ready to intervene, would have been the height of stupidity. Policing protests is extremely delicate. There are times when what you describe is appropriate. This was not one of them. And what I saw was not peaceful; it was aggressive. Trust me when I say every Garda there was going to be at least as on-edge as anyone else, and with far worse odds.

Now this is complete bollocks. If there's a threat of violence the last thing the Gardaí should do is send in a large number of riot police. This only serves to give the potentially violent protesters a target and gives the Gardaí a reason to shut the whole protest down. What should have been done was the Gardaí should have had plain clothes officers patrolling the crowd and pulling anyone who was getting overly aggressive to the side. Instead, they go in with shields up and batons drawn.

This was an intentional act by the Gardaí and the government to intimidate the general public and deter future protesters from taking action. It happens all the time and usually it works. Do you remember the Reclaim the Streets demo a few years back where Gardaí violently attacked peaceful protesters? The organizers decided not to hold any more demos because of the fear of more police brutality.

Gman1 · 03-11-2010 06:55PM

Stinicker wrote: »

The gardai had no right to do what they done today and these are the facts.

Ireland is bankrupt
Fianna Fail are a corrupt party acting illegally
4 Constituencies are not getting their democratic representation
A judge has ruled the current government are infringing upon the Constitution
Fianna Fail will do anything to cling onto power and protect their corrupt elite
The ordinary person of Ireland is staring into a black abyss

The students were right to protest and there should be more protests against Fianna Fail.

If the Gardai are prepared to defend an illegal regime who are shredding our constitution and democracy then the Gardai are also the enemy and should be prepared for the consequences.

Every man and woman has a patriotic duty to get these traitorous crooks out of office - by force and violence as necessary.

I agree, how many revolutions or coups are won with peaceful protests?. NONE

Student Protest Kicks Off (see video only posts warning)

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