Over 3000 returning Irish being refused the dole.

fontanalis · 28-10-2010 02:22PM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

that is one of the best laws that the Irish TDs actually managed to bring as legislation
(you have to remember that they have very little time for laws between getting people into hospitals and out of prision. Its a wonder theres any laws at all... anyhow...)

Anyone remember about 10 or 12 years ago how it was in Galway out in the Claddagh?
Every feckin crusty from every corner of Europe was permanently camped in Galway, havin the crack and paying for it thanks to the Irish social welfare system. And thats when the dole was utter crap.
This law sent them packing damn bloody quick though!!!

Its unfortunate that Irish in the US or Australia cant get free rent and 200 quid a week in the pocket from the Irish government when they decide to land back, but tough.

Also, suppose the law was made more liberal, what would an unintented consequence be?
To compare a country with lower welfare rates, the dole in Poland is 120 Euro a MONTH (not week, month).
Theres 26 million of working age
of that 9% unemployment so 2.3 million on Polish crap dole that are probably not the happiest campers.

Imagine IF they could up sticks and land to Ireland and get 200 quid a week beer money for doin SFA? And their accomodation paid for. And medical and other little odds and ends bertie gave in the giveaway budgets???
How many would land for the better dole?? tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
AND thats also to take into account that the average wage there is 800 Euro a month BEFORE tax in Poland**
Why would you work in Poland when you could doss in Ireland and end up with more in the pocket???

Even germany has a much worse social welfare rate than Ireland. And theres 3 million there who could probably swap their drab innercity lives for a bit of drizzle for the luxory of 200 a week beer money PLUS free accomodation.

Ireland MUST have a law that somehow makes it difficult for the 10s of millions of unemployed across europe to swap their menial existance in their homeland for the lucrative extravaganza that is the irish welfare system.

**http://www.thenews.pl/business/artykul117027_average_salary_on_the_rise.html

Why would you want to imagine that?

The Waltzing Consumer · 28-10-2010 02:24PM

charlemont wrote: »

the irish government dosent want these people to return as they see them as a threat as its more likely these returning irish wont vote fianna fail in the next election.. lots of immigrants were brought here by the friends of fianna fail to work so they are hoping the immigrants that have the right to vote will remember them..the sooner the head is cut of the monster we call fianna fail the better, the are a shower of scum and traitors..

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Next we will have the "Fianna Fail were not even born in this country" theory

followed by "Fianna Fail are muslim" theory

whydoibother? · 28-10-2010 02:25PM

Definitely needs to be looked at. If someone has been on say two years of working holiday visas and did that because they couldn't get work at home, they have actually done something good for the economy (and I'm sure for themselves as well). If they'd just stayed here and took dole money when they where free and single with no kids and able to go for example, they would have cost the state roughly 200 X 104 = 20,800 euros plus medical card, maybe social housing etc. Before anyone gets offended, I'm not complaining about anyone who genuinely needs assistance getting it, but I do think people who think they can organize their own income without state help should be encouraged, not penalized for doing that.

fontanalis · 28-10-2010 02:27PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Next we will have the "Fianna Fail were not even born in this country" theory

followed by "Fianna Fail are muslim" theory

No it's all part of the "foreigners caused the recession" meme that's going to happen; you know avoiding responsibility.

The Waltzing Consumer · 28-10-2010 02:32PM

whydoibother? wrote: »

Definitely needs to be looked at. If someone has been on say two years of working holiday visas and did that because they couldn't get work at home, they have actually done something good for the economy (and I'm sure for themselves as well). If they'd just stayed here and took dole money when they where free and single with no kids and able to go for example, they would have cost the state roughly 200 X 104 = 20,800 euros plus medical card, maybe social housing etc. Before anyone gets offended, I'm not complaining about anyone who genuinely needs assistance getting it, but I do think people who think they can organize their own income without state help should be encouraged, not penalized for doing that.

I was thinking that, but if that was true, a lot more than three thousand would be turned away. 3000 is a tiny number when you think about it, and it would be interesting to find the actual number of people who have returned to Ireland and not been turned away.

The only example the article gives is some woman, lived in US for 17 years, lost her job and was "shocked" she could not claim here. If that is the best they have, then this is a joke of an issue.

Morlar · 28-10-2010 02:32PM

If an Irishperson, born in Ireland and had to emigrate due to economic reasons is now seeking to return home to live permanently in Ireland then as far as I am concerned they are FAR more entitled to live here and be given assistance than anyone born outiside of Ireland.

fontanalis · 28-10-2010 02:34PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I was thinking that, but if that was true, a lot more than three thousand would be turned away. 3000 is a tiny number when you think about it, and it would be interesting to find the actual number of people who have returned to Ireland and not been turned away.

The only example the article gives is some woman, lived in US for 17 years, lost her job and was "shocked" she could not claim here. If that is the best they have, then this is a joke of an issue.

Isn't the requirement (real not urban myth one) to receive dole to have to have worked for two years?
Now over the last few years weren't people able to get two year visas in Australia? Throw in a couple months travel and you are well over the two years, I'd say these type of cases would make up the number. Worse again it may force someone to stay on illegally.

charlemont · 28-10-2010 02:37PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Next we will have the "Fianna Fail were not even born in this country" theory

followed by "Fianna Fail are muslim" theory

course they can , not all of them but those who got citizenship can, iv few mates here with irish passports, they voted in '07 and will vote in '12..

eamonn wasnt born here was he ?

punchdrunk · 28-10-2010 02:37PM

they should all just claim they are travellers,they'll be sorted in a week!

senordingdong · 28-10-2010 02:43PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Yeah, we don't want them Easterners bringing their corruption over here.

The Waltzing Consumer · 28-10-2010 02:43PM

fontanalis wrote: »

Isn't the requirement (real not urban myth one) to receive dole to have to have worked for two years?
Now over the last few years weren't people able to get two year visas in Australia? Throw in a couple months travel and you are well over the two years, I'd say these type of cases would make up the number. Worse again it may force someone to stay on illegally.

I think, by the lack of details given, it is hard to say what the circumstances were for each of the three thousand. People are going to be conjuring up images of young people who went to Oz or America for a few years, or a middle aged couple who paid tax all their lives being denied social welfare. The reality is probably different. I would like to know more before judging, but based on the only example they give (which you have to admit is a joke, 17 years in US, and the woman complains when she can't get the dole here), it is hardly a big deal.

The Waltzing Consumer · 28-10-2010 02:45PM

charlemont wrote: »

course they can , not all of them but those who got citizenship can, iv few mates here with irish passports, they voted in '07 and will vote in '12..

eamonn wasnt born here was he ?

Ah, okay, so your mates were brought in by Fianna Fail and are going to vote Fianna Fail now that they are citizens?

curlzy · 28-10-2010 02:47PM

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

The above statement is wrong. You cannot claim Jobseekers Benefit if you haven't paid 52 A class PRSI contributions in the governing year (2008 at the mo) or 26 and 26 contributions in the governing year and preceeding year (e.g. 26 in 2008 and 26 in 2009) You CAN claim Jobseekers Allowance, which is not a contributory based payment but is means tested, in other words if you're rich you won't get it.

I hate it when people just make **** up and pass it off as fact.

curlzy · 28-10-2010 02:50PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

Wait a minute....I thought that every legal resident of Ireland could go on the Nat King Cole if they had no means of support or income. I thought that you could get some form of government assistance even if you had never worked a day in your life. Is this not so? Who are the people who will receive not a red cent in dole and how do they survive? Begging? Crime? Charities?

Don't believe the hype. If you don't get Jobseekers Benefit (must have been working and paying PRSI) you get Jobseekers Allowance, if you don't get that (because of habitual residence or means in excess) then you go to your community welfare officer from the HSE and they will give you a supplementary welfare allowance. People don't starve, beg or commit crime unless they want to in this country.

whitesands · 28-10-2010 02:58PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

Wait a minute....I thought that every legal resident of Ireland could go on the Nat King Cole if they had no means of support or income. I thought that you could get some form of government assistance even if you had never worked a day in your life. Is this not so? Who are the people who will receive not a red cent in dole and how do they survive? Begging? Crime? Charities?

Once you go self employed your on your own, to get the dole you would have to wind up the business & sit there for 1 year before you'd be entitled to anything.
I made about €100 last week, this week has been worse, next week will hopefully be better, feck all I can do, I'm stuck.

So basically, I hope this country collapses, bring on the default, I welcome it. :mad:

seamus · 28-10-2010 03:01PM

curlzy wrote: »

Don't believe the hype. If you don't get Jobseekers Benefit (must have been working and paying PRSI) you get Jobseekers Allowance, if you don't get that (because of habitual residence or means in excess) then you go to your community welfare officer from the HSE and they will give you a supplementary welfare allowance. People don't starve, beg or commit crime unless they want to in this country.

This is a very important point. Nobody in modern times has ever arrived in this country and been refused assistance by the state - either assistance to get home again or assistance to stay here.
The 3,000 being discussed aren't being turned away without a penny, they just have a few additional hoops to jump through to get some.

OutlawPete · 28-10-2010 03:04PM

Jaysus, I love Ireland.

Over the past ten years or so, whenever anyone complained that Nigerians and Polish people shouldn't get automatic social welfare payments when they came to the country, they got openly and unashamedly called a racist.

Yet now when we have Irish citizens coming home to the land they were born in and they get told to feck off.

Marvelous place altogether.

curlzy · 28-10-2010 03:14PM

whitesands wrote: »

Once you go self employed your on your own, to get the dole you would have to wind up the business & sit there for 1 year before you'd be entitled to anything.
I made about €100 last week, this week has been worse, next week will hopefully be better, feck all I can do, I'm stuck.

So basically, I hope this country collapses, bring on the default, I welcome it. :mad:

Someone has been giving you VERY bad advice. I would suggest you contact your Local Social Welfare office and apply for Jobseeker's Allowance, you will have to supply your business accounts (if self employed), bank accounts and show any property/investments you have. If you have means in excess then you won't get anything but in fairness why should you if you have means in excess? However if you are existing on E100 a week you most definately will get something on the graduated rate, call back into your local office and ask about your entitlements.

The Waltzing Consumer · 28-10-2010 03:15PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Jaysus, I love Ireland.

Over the past ten years or so, whenever anyone complained that Nigerians and Polish people shouldn't get automatic social welfare payments when they came to the country, they got openly and unashamedly called a racist.

Yet now when we have Irish citizens coming home to the land they were born in and they get told to feck off.

Marvelous place altogether.

We hate all foreigners, even if they were born in Ireland

fontanalis · 28-10-2010 03:18PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Jaysus, I love Ireland.

Over the past ten years or so, whenever anyone complained that Nigerians and Polish people shouldn't get automatic social welfare payments when they came to the country, they got openly and unashamedly called a racist.

Yet now when we have Irish citizens coming home to the land they were born in and they get told to feck off.

Marvelous place altogether.

Do Nigerians and Polish get automatic social welfare payments (apart from refugee starus money which isn't exactly D4 lifestyle amounts)?
See seamus' post above before you do the land where they were born (wipes tear from eye) romanticised blarney.

ilovefridays · 28-10-2010 03:20PM

how come foreigners can move to this country and go straight to the dole office and get looked after. they never paid a stamp in their life, yet they just jump of the plane/boat head to the local sw office and claim for everything. But yet our own get turned away

me and my hubby are killing ourselves get up early every morning for work to pay our mortgage and bills, and there's our next door neighbours, married with a couple of kids, sitting at home all day, neither of them work, they have a nice car each, social are paying the rent on their houses. they have 2 holidays a year back to their home country. They have told us before 'why should we work, we're better off not working'. this pisses me off, kids are always well dressed , have the best of everything. I don't blame these foreigners, i blame the irish government for encouraging it.
This is my personal opinion

The Waltzing Consumer · 28-10-2010 03:22PM

ilovefridays wrote: »

how come foreigners can move to this country and go straight to the dole office and get looked after. they never paid a stamp in their life, yet they just jump of the plane/boat head to the local sw office and claim for everything. But yet our own get turned away

me and my hubby are killing ourselves get up early every morning for work to pay our mortgage and bills, and there's our next door neighbours, married with a couple of kids, sitting at home all day, neither of them work, they have a nice car each, social are paying the rent on their houses. they have 2 holidays a year back to their home country. They have told us before 'why should we work, we're better off not working'. this pisses me off, kids are always well dressed , have the best of everything. I don't blame these foreigners, i blame the irish government for encouraging it.
This is my personal opinion

Are you and outlawPete the same person?

OutlawPete · 28-10-2010 03:26PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Are you and outlawPete the same person?

No, he's sexier than me and I hate Fridays.

derdider · 28-10-2010 03:53PM

There was a guy on the radio about 2-3 months ago who was one of these "returning Irish".

Basically, for those wondering what ypes of stories these people have, he was living and working in the US for years. Not a wealthy man by any means, just an average worker.

His dad fell seriously ill so he came back to visit his dad. His dad then was basically dying so he stayed with his dad for his last couple of months minding him. Spent any money he had during this time paying his own expences and looking after his dad. When his dad died he had no money to go back to the US (had lost his job anyway too) so tried to get a job here and stay here. Couldnt get a job, couldnt get job-seekers and is basically f*cked. Has no money for food here, has no money to get back to the US...... Hes literally out begging.

(Some details may have been embellished by my mind over time

but that was more or less his story)

K-9 · 28-10-2010 04:36PM

dearg lady wrote: »

Yes, but a lower rate than an employee

If earning less than €26,000 they pay at 3%, compared to 4% for employees. They don't get a PRSI free Allowance of about €6,600 a year though, so not much difference. It's a 7% rate up to €75,000 a year, again not a major difference with no allowance.

It's 8% after that, which is actually more than employees who pay 5% over 75k.

Misanthrope · 28-10-2010 04:47PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

imagine coming home after 20 years away and expecting money to be just handed to you: does not compute

You are so right.I've lived outside Ireland for a long time now but recently have strongly considered returning home.If after all this time I found I was going back to sponge off the dole,I would end it all.

Are ex-pats trying to pull this stunt?When I upped and left, I forfeited things like dole and state pension.I made my bed and now I lie in it.That's fair enough.

Saadyst · 28-10-2010 04:56PM

ilovefridays wrote: »

how come foreigners can move to this country and go straight to the dole office and get looked after. they never paid a stamp in their life, yet they just jump of the plane/boat head to the local sw office and claim for everything. But yet our own get turned away

me and my hubby are killing ourselves get up early every morning for work to pay our mortgage and bills, and there's our next door neighbours, married with a couple of kids, sitting at home all day, neither of them work, they have a nice car each, social are paying the rent on their houses. they have 2 holidays a year back to their home country. They have told us before 'why should we work, we're better off not working'. this pisses me off, kids are always well dressed , have the best of everything. I don't blame these foreigners, i blame the irish government for encouraging it.
This is my personal opinion

:rolleyes:

Overheal · 28-10-2010 04:59PM

derdider wrote: »

There was a guy on the radio about 2-3 months ago who was one of these "returning Irish".

Basically, for those wondering what ypes of stories these people have, he was living and working in the US for years. Not a wealthy man by any means, just an average worker.

His dad fell seriously ill so he came back to visit his dad. His dad then was basically dying so he stayed with his dad for his last couple of months minding him. Spent any money he had during this time paying his own expences and looking after his dad. When his dad died he had no money to go back to the US (had lost his job anyway too) so tried to get a job here and stay here. Couldnt get a job, couldnt get job-seekers and is basically f*cked. Has no money for food here, has no money to get back to the US...... Hes literally out begging.

(Some details may have been embellished by my mind over time but that was more or less his story)

Uh huh.

How did he lose his job then? He knows we have our own Unemployment system?

Saadyst · 28-10-2010 04:59PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Irish people have been referred to as "they" on this thread also, do you take issue with that too?

I never put the word in bold :P

It's just one of those stories you always hear... from a friend... who knows someone's brother... who has an uncle... that has a friend.. that works from 6am to 9pm and has never taken a day off in his life or broken any laws and is a saint... meanwhile the nasty evil dole spongers are with their 8 kids in their 10 bedroom house and 100" LCD tellies, with brand new 4x4s in the driveway

Nodin · 28-10-2010 05:09PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Jaysus, I love Ireland.

Over the past ten years or so, whenever anyone complained that Nigerians and Polish people shouldn't get automatic social welfare payments when they came to the country, they got openly and unashamedly called a racist.

Yet now when we have Irish citizens coming home to the land they were born in and they get told to feck off.

Marvelous place altogether.

....but Nigerians and Poles don't automatically get payments, because they wouldn't satisfy the habitual residence requirement and they don't have stamps....your post makes no sense.

Over 3000 returning Irish being refused the dole.

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