Over 3000 returning Irish being refused the dole.

Ghandee

Shocking reading, up to 3000 Irish people returning to their home country are being refused dole.
Fair enough, measures have been put in place to protect our (imo generous) welfare system. Unfortunately, its quite ironic that its our own folk who seem to be denied the 'privilege'of collecting it! Seemingly forcing a lot of people onto the street, and a life of homelessness!



http://www.independent.ie/national-news/over-3000-returning-irish-refused-dole-2397877.html

TheZohanS

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

seamus

And? Does their citizenship confer on them an automatic right to state aid? You wouldn't go to a different country if you didn't have a job there, why would you come home under the same circumstances?

Get rid of this entitlement lark. They left and haven't been paying taxes here. They have no entitlement to anything just by virtue of where they happened to be born.

Cookie_Monster

imagine coming home after 20 years away and expecting money to be just handed to you: does not compute

Sea Sharp

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

Neither can the son of a self employed person who can't afford to move out. :mad::mad:

prinz

Gucky wrote: »

Unfortunately, its quite ironic that its our own folk who seem to be denied the 'privilege'of collecting it!

I see you still haven't quite grasped it yet Alannis.

Ghandee

seamus wrote: »

And? Does their citizenship confer on them an automatic right to state aid? You wouldn't go to a different country if you didn't have a job there, why would you come home under the same circumstances?

Get rid of this entitlement lark. They left and haven't been paying taxes here. They have no entitlement to anything just by virtue of where they happened to be born.

Read the article Seamus.

Some of them have been gone for less than 18 months man!

I'm lucky enough that I have a job, and I count my blessings everyday that I have it.

Something like having to claim the doles probably never going to happen to you though is it?

There but by the grace of God.

mikemac

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

Do they pay PRSI?

_feedback_

I agree that it doesn't exactly entice them to come back, but they chose to leave and therefore lost any entitlements they may have had.

Gucky wrote: »

Some of them have been gone for less than 18 months man!

It obviously didn't work out when they left. Plenty stayed here.

Ghandee

prinz wrote: »

I see you still haven't quite grasped it yet Alannis.

Not yet, artist formerly known as.

dearg lady

feelingstressed wrote: »

Do they pay PRSI?

Yes, but a lower rate than an employee

seamus

Gucky wrote: »

Some of them have been gone for less than 18 months man!

But they still hadn't paid tax for a while before that. I wonder how many of these are people who went "travelling" for 3 years and came home to sign on, finding out that it's not that simple.

Something like having to claim the doles probably never going to happen to you though is it?

It could, but then I've been paying my taxes, so I'm entitled to state support if such a thing were to happen.
If I lost my job and went to the States, and I'm not going to start complaining when I can't get dole money from the Fed.

Jarren

they have been refused JSA on following grounds

4. HABITUAL RESIDENCE - National law
The habitual residence condition is included in the particular Section listing the conditions of entitlement for each of the relevant schemes.

In addition, Section 246 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 provides that:

"it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown, that a person is not habitually resident in the State at the date of the making of the application concerned unless he has been present in the State or any other part of the Common Travel Area for a continuous period of 2 years ending on that date."

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/habres.aspx


It's the law

TheZohanS

feelingstressed wrote: »

Do they pay PRSI?

At a different rate, yes.

jimmycrackcorm

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Neither can the son of a self employed person who can't afford to move out. :mad::mad:

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

_feedback_

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

Fifteen posts to blame the foreigners? You can do better than that. :pac:

TheZohanS

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

So can an Irish person, but you have to be working and paying tax regardless of what EU nationality you are.

Dacelonid

seamus wrote: »

And? Does their citizenship confer on them an automatic right to state aid? You wouldn't go to a different country if you didn't have a job there, why would you come home under the same circumstances?

Get rid of this entitlement lark. They left and haven't been paying taxes here. They have no entitlement to anything just by virtue of where they happened to be born.

We had this argument at lunch and this was my stance. They haven't contributed anything to our economy in the last few years, why should they get the benefit of our (imo) over generous welfare system.

Lets just say I was in a minority with this argument.

jackiebaron

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

Wait a minute....I thought that every legal resident of Ireland could go on the Nat King Cole if they had no means of support or income. I thought that you could get some form of government assistance even if you had never worked a day in your life. Is this not so? Who are the people who will receive not a red cent in dole and how do they survive? Begging? Crime? Charities?

seamus

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

And the children of Irish workers living in Poland can get the relevant children's allowance even though they may actually be living in Ireland.

Shock, horror, we're part of an equitable system but we complain when we're asked to contribute our fair share.

Look, the basis here is that if you become unemployed then you should rely on the welfare system of the country in which you were employed, to support you while you look for a job.

If you went to a country that has no support for jobseekers, then that's the choice you made when you emigrated.

Change the context of the article so that it's referring to Polish workers who used to work in Ireland, but then left Ireland to work in Poland and later came back to Ireland when they lost their job. Would we have any sympathy? Of course not.

senordingdong

Is it as easy for an Irish person to sign on in another EU country?

jackiebaron

elviscostello wrote: »

I agree that it doesn't exactly entice them to come back, but they chose to leave and therefore lost any entitlements they may have had.



It obviously didn't work out when they left. Plenty stayed here.

What entitlements does one forfeit if one leaves the country and can you direct me to where you got this information? Also what is the time limit for forfeiture of rights/entitlements? How long can you stay out of the country and return so that your entitlements are still in place?

Canis Lupus

Sweet so after 5 years in London now I'm being made redundant I can go home to Ireland and claim the dole. Happy days :P

ejmaztec

The article doesn't actually specify which countries all of the refused have come from, but I'd imagine that anyone coming back from the UK at least, wouldn't have much of a problem, given the relationship that exists between the two jurisdictions.

Of course, I could be talking through my hole, and perhaps someone will let me know.:(

The Waltzing Consumer

jackiebaron wrote: »

What entitlements does one forfeit if one leaves the country and can you direct me to where you got this information? Also what is the time limit for forfeiture of rights/entitlements? How long can you stay out of the country and return so that your entitlements are still in place?

this gives you the info

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/habres.aspx

jackiebaron

Dacelonid wrote: »

We had this argument at lunch and this was my stance. They haven't contributed anything to our economy in the last few years, why should they get the benefit of our (imo) over generous welfare system.

Lets just say I was in a minority with this argument.

But what about the ones who HAVE been paying taxes albeit it in another EU country like England or Germany. Surely European tax must count for something with regards to welfare? What's all this hokum about border transparency, free movement of goods and labour, yada yada? I was under the impression that if you qualified for the dole in Ireland then you could go off to another EU country and collect your dole there while searching for work. Likewise I was under the impression that if you worked for a few years in say France then got laid off you could return to Ireland, claim dole and search for work there. Just because someone hasn't paid taxes (by virtue of not being in the country) should not exempt them from the services that others enjoy. What are you going to do kick them out of public parks, refuse them access to footpaths, etc. because they haven't contributed to the upkeep of these amenities?

seamus

jackiebaron wrote: »

But what about the ones who HAVE been paying taxes albeit it in another EU country like England or Germany.

They can most likely claim social welfare from those states for a certain amount of time even if they're not living there any longer.

_feedback_

jackiebaron wrote: »

What entitlements does one forfeit if one leaves the country and can you direct me to where you got this information? Also what is the time limit for forfeiture of rights/entitlements? How long can you stay out of the country and return so that your entitlements are still in place?

Sorry, maybe you took that up as I was stating a fact. Even though there are laws in place, I was merely stating my opinion that they don't deserve to be entitled to claim after coming back.

I've had a tough ride over the past few years here. I could have taken the opportunity to sail off in to the sunset and come back when things improved.

I don't think they should be able to wander back in and claim straight away. Stick it out here if you want to claim. Or bring back some money from your little adventure.

ottostreet

If anyone in here knows of someone affected by this rule, could they PM me please!

charlemont

the irish government dosent want these people to return as they see them as a threat as its more likely these returning irish wont vote fianna fail in the next election.. lots of immigrants were brought here by the friends of fianna fail to work so they are hoping the immigrants that have the right to vote will remember them..the sooner the head is cut of the monster we call fianna fail the better, the are a shower of scum and traitors..

munchkin_utd

that is one of the best laws that the Irish TDs actually managed to bring as legislation
(you have to remember that they have very little time for laws between getting people into hospitals and out of prision. Its a wonder theres any laws at all... anyhow...)

Anyone remember about 10 or 12 years ago how it was in Galway out in the Claddagh?
Every feckin crusty from every corner of Europe was permanently camped in Galway, havin the crack and paying for it thanks to the Irish social welfare system. And thats when the dole was utter crap.
This law sent them packing damn bloody quick though!!!

Its unfortunate that Irish in the US or Australia cant get free rent and 200 quid a week in the pocket from the Irish government when they decide to land back, but tough.

Also, suppose the law was made more liberal, what would an unintented consequence be?
To compare a country with lower welfare rates, the dole in Poland is 120 Euro a MONTH (not week, month).
Theres 26 million of working age
of that 9% unemployment so 2.3 million on Polish crap dole that are probably not the happiest campers.

Imagine IF they could up sticks and land to Ireland and get 200 quid a week beer money for doin SFA? And their accomodation paid for. And medical and other little odds and ends bertie gave in the giveaway budgets???
How many would land for the better dole?? tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
AND thats also to take into account that the average wage there is 800 Euro a month BEFORE tax in Poland**
Why would you work in Poland when you could doss in Ireland and end up with more in the pocket???

Even germany has a much worse social welfare rate than Ireland. And theres 3 million there who could probably swap their drab innercity lives for a bit of drizzle for the luxory of 200 a week beer money PLUS free accomodation.

Ireland MUST have a law that somehow makes it difficult for the 10s of millions of unemployed across europe to swap their menial existance in their homeland for the lucrative extravaganza that is the irish welfare system.


**http://www.thenews.pl/business/artykul117027_average_salary_on_the_rise.html

fontanalis

munchkin_utd wrote: »

that is one of the best laws that the Irish TDs actually managed to bring as legislation
(you have to remember that they have very little time for laws between getting people into hospitals and out of prision. Its a wonder theres any laws at all... anyhow...)

Anyone remember about 10 or 12 years ago how it was in Galway out in the Claddagh?
Every feckin crusty from every corner of Europe was permanently camped in Galway, havin the crack and paying for it thanks to the Irish social welfare system. And thats when the dole was utter crap.
This law sent them packing damn bloody quick though!!!

Its unfortunate that Irish in the US or Australia cant get free rent and 200 quid a week in the pocket from the Irish government when they decide to land back, but tough.

Also, suppose the law was made more liberal, what would an unintented consequence be?
To compare a country with lower welfare rates, the dole in Poland is 120 Euro a MONTH (not week, month).
Theres 26 million of working age
of that 9% unemployment so 2.3 million on Polish crap dole that are probably not the happiest campers.

Imagine IF they could up sticks and land to Ireland and get 200 quid a week beer money for doin SFA? And their accomodation paid for. And medical and other little odds and ends bertie gave in the giveaway budgets???
How many would land for the better dole?? tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
AND thats also to take into account that the average wage there is 800 Euro a month BEFORE tax in Poland**
Why would you work in Poland when you could doss in Ireland and end up with more in the pocket???

Even germany has a much worse social welfare rate than Ireland. And theres 3 million there who could probably swap their drab innercity lives for a bit of drizzle for the luxory of 200 a week beer money PLUS free accomodation.

Ireland MUST have a law that somehow makes it difficult for the 10s of millions of unemployed across europe to swap their menial existance in their homeland for the lucrative extravaganza that is the irish welfare system.


**http://www.thenews.pl/business/artykul117027_average_salary_on_the_rise.html

Why would you want to imagine that?

The Waltzing Consumer

charlemont wrote: »

the irish government dosent want these people to return as they see them as a threat as its more likely these returning irish wont vote fianna fail in the next election.. lots of immigrants were brought here by the friends of fianna fail to work so they are hoping the immigrants that have the right to vote will remember them..the sooner the head is cut of the monster we call fianna fail the better, the are a shower of scum and traitors..

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Next we will have the "Fianna Fail were not even born in this country" theory

followed by "Fianna Fail are muslim" theory

whydoibother?

Definitely needs to be looked at. If someone has been on say two years of working holiday visas and did that because they couldn't get work at home, they have actually done something good for the economy (and I'm sure for themselves as well). If they'd just stayed here and took dole money when they where free and single with no kids and able to go for example, they would have cost the state roughly 200 X 104 = 20,800 euros plus medical card, maybe social housing etc. Before anyone gets offended, I'm not complaining about anyone who genuinely needs assistance getting it, but I do think people who think they can organize their own income without state help should be encouraged, not penalized for doing that.

fontanalis

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Next we will have the "Fianna Fail were not even born in this country" theory

followed by "Fianna Fail are muslim" theory

No it's all part of the "foreigners caused the recession" meme that's going to happen; you know avoiding responsibility.

The Waltzing Consumer

whydoibother? wrote: »

Definitely needs to be looked at. If someone has been on say two years of working holiday visas and did that because they couldn't get work at home, they have actually done something good for the economy (and I'm sure for themselves as well). If they'd just stayed here and took dole money when they where free and single with no kids and able to go for example, they would have cost the state roughly 200 X 104 = 20,800 euros plus medical card, maybe social housing etc. Before anyone gets offended, I'm not complaining about anyone who genuinely needs assistance getting it, but I do think people who think they can organize their own income without state help should be encouraged, not penalized for doing that.

I was thinking that, but if that was true, a lot more than three thousand would be turned away. 3000 is a tiny number when you think about it, and it would be interesting to find the actual number of people who have returned to Ireland and not been turned away.

The only example the article gives is some woman, lived in US for 17 years, lost her job and was "shocked" she could not claim here. If that is the best they have, then this is a joke of an issue.

Morlar

If an Irishperson, born in Ireland and had to emigrate due to economic reasons is now seeking to return home to live permanently in Ireland then as far as I am concerned they are FAR more entitled to live here and be given assistance than anyone born outiside of Ireland.

fontanalis

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I was thinking that, but if that was true, a lot more than three thousand would be turned away. 3000 is a tiny number when you think about it, and it would be interesting to find the actual number of people who have returned to Ireland and not been turned away.

The only example the article gives is some woman, lived in US for 17 years, lost her job and was "shocked" she could not claim here. If that is the best they have, then this is a joke of an issue.

Isn't the requirement (real not urban myth one) to receive dole to have to have worked for two years?
Now over the last few years weren't people able to get two year visas in Australia? Throw in a couple months travel and you are well over the two years, I'd say these type of cases would make up the number. Worse again it may force someone to stay on illegally.

charlemont

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Next we will have the "Fianna Fail were not even born in this country" theory

followed by "Fianna Fail are muslim" theory

course they can , not all of them but those who got citizenship can, iv few mates here with irish passports, they voted in '07 and will vote in '12..

eamonn wasnt born here was he ?

punchdrunk

they should all just claim they are travellers,they'll be sorted in a week!

senordingdong

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Immigrants cannot vote in general elections, only local elections. One of the stupider theories I have ever read.

Yeah, we don't want them Easterners bringing their corruption over here.

The Waltzing Consumer

fontanalis wrote: »

Isn't the requirement (real not urban myth one) to receive dole to have to have worked for two years?
Now over the last few years weren't people able to get two year visas in Australia? Throw in a couple months travel and you are well over the two years, I'd say these type of cases would make up the number. Worse again it may force someone to stay on illegally.

I think, by the lack of details given, it is hard to say what the circumstances were for each of the three thousand. People are going to be conjuring up images of young people who went to Oz or America for a few years, or a middle aged couple who paid tax all their lives being denied social welfare. The reality is probably different. I would like to know more before judging, but based on the only example they give (which you have to admit is a joke, 17 years in US, and the woman complains when she can't get the dole here), it is hardly a big deal.

The Waltzing Consumer

charlemont wrote: »

course they can , not all of them but those who got citizenship can, iv few mates here with irish passports, they voted in '07 and will vote in '12..

eamonn wasnt born here was he ?

Ah, okay, so your mates were brought in by Fianna Fail and are going to vote Fianna Fail now that they are citizens?

curlzy

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

The above statement is wrong. You cannot claim Jobseekers Benefit if you haven't paid 52 A class PRSI contributions in the governing year (2008 at the mo) or 26 and 26 contributions in the governing year and preceeding year (e.g. 26 in 2008 and 26 in 2009) You CAN claim Jobseekers Allowance, which is not a contributory based payment but is means tested, in other words if you're rich you won't get it.

I hate it when people just make **** up and pass it off as fact.

curlzy

jackiebaron wrote: »

Wait a minute....I thought that every legal resident of Ireland could go on the Nat King Cole if they had no means of support or income. I thought that you could get some form of government assistance even if you had never worked a day in your life. Is this not so? Who are the people who will receive not a red cent in dole and how do they survive? Begging? Crime? Charities?

Don't believe the hype. If you don't get Jobseekers Benefit (must have been working and paying PRSI) you get Jobseekers Allowance, if you don't get that (because of habitual residence or means in excess) then you go to your community welfare officer from the HSE and they will give you a supplementary welfare allowance. People don't starve, beg or commit crime unless they want to in this country.

whitesands

jackiebaron wrote: »

Wait a minute....I thought that every legal resident of Ireland could go on the Nat King Cole if they had no means of support or income. I thought that you could get some form of government assistance even if you had never worked a day in your life. Is this not so? Who are the people who will receive not a red cent in dole and how do they survive? Begging? Crime? Charities?

Once you go self employed your on your own, to get the dole you would have to wind up the business & sit there for 1 year before you'd be entitled to anything.
I made about €100 last week, this week has been worse, next week will hopefully be better, feck all I can do, I'm stuck.

So basically, I hope this country collapses, bring on the default, I welcome it. :mad:

seamus

curlzy wrote: »

Don't believe the hype. If you don't get Jobseekers Benefit (must have been working and paying PRSI) you get Jobseekers Allowance, if you don't get that (because of habitual residence or means in excess) then you go to your community welfare officer from the HSE and they will give you a supplementary welfare allowance. People don't starve, beg or commit crime unless they want to in this country.

This is a very important point. Nobody in modern times has ever arrived in this country and been refused assistance by the state - either assistance to get home again or assistance to stay here.
The 3,000 being discussed aren't being turned away without a penny, they just have a few additional hoops to jump through to get some.

OutlawPete

Jaysus, I love Ireland.

Over the past ten years or so, whenever anyone complained that Nigerians and Polish people shouldn't get automatic social welfare payments when they came to the country, they got openly and unashamedly called a racist.

Yet now when we have Irish citizens coming home to the land they were born in and they get told to feck off.

Marvelous place altogether.

curlzy

whitesands wrote: »

Once you go self employed your on your own, to get the dole you would have to wind up the business & sit there for 1 year before you'd be entitled to anything.
I made about €100 last week, this week has been worse, next week will hopefully be better, feck all I can do, I'm stuck.

So basically, I hope this country collapses, bring on the default, I welcome it. :mad:

Someone has been giving you VERY bad advice. I would suggest you contact your Local Social Welfare office and apply for Jobseeker's Allowance, you will have to supply your business accounts (if self employed), bank accounts and show any property/investments you have. If you have means in excess then you won't get anything but in fairness why should you if you have means in excess? However if you are existing on E100 a week you most definately will get something on the graduated rate, call back into your local office and ask about your entitlements.

The Waltzing Consumer

OutlawPete wrote: »

Jaysus, I love Ireland.

Over the past ten years or so, whenever anyone complained that Nigerians and Polish people shouldn't get automatic social welfare payments when they came to the country, they got openly and unashamedly called a racist.

Yet now when we have Irish citizens coming home to the land they were born in and they get told to feck off.

Marvelous place altogether.

We hate all foreigners, even if they were born in Ireland

fontanalis

OutlawPete wrote: »

Jaysus, I love Ireland.

Over the past ten years or so, whenever anyone complained that Nigerians and Polish people shouldn't get automatic social welfare payments when they came to the country, they got openly and unashamedly called a racist.

Yet now when we have Irish citizens coming home to the land they were born in and they get told to feck off.

Marvelous place altogether.

Do Nigerians and Polish get automatic social welfare payments (apart from refugee starus money which isn't exactly D4 lifestyle amounts)?
See seamus' post above before you do the land where they were born (wipes tear from eye) romanticised blarney.