Over 3000 returning Irish being refused the dole.

Ghandee · 28-10-2010 01:35PM #1

Shocking reading, up to 3000 Irish people returning to their home country are being refused dole.
Fair enough, measures have been put in place to protect our (imo generous) welfare system. Unfortunately, its quite ironic that its our own folk who seem to be denied the 'privilege'of collecting it! Seemingly forcing a lot of people onto the street, and a life of homelessness!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/over-3000-returning-irish-refused-dole-2397877.html

TheZohanS · 28-10-2010 01:40PM

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

seamus · 28-10-2010 01:41PM

And? Does their citizenship confer on them an automatic right to state aid? You wouldn't go to a different country if you didn't have a job there, why would you come home under the same circumstances?

Get rid of this entitlement lark. They left and haven't been paying taxes here. They have no entitlement to anything just by virtue of where they happened to be born.

Cookie_Monster · 28-10-2010 01:43PM

imagine coming home after 20 years away and expecting money to be just handed to you: does not compute

Sea Sharp · 28-10-2010 01:43PM

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

Neither can the son of a self employed person who can't afford to move out. :mad::mad:

prinz · 28-10-2010 01:43PM

Gucky wrote: »

Unfortunately, its quite ironic that its our own folk who seem to be denied the 'privilege'of collecting it!

I see you still haven't quite grasped it yet Alannis.

Ghandee · 28-10-2010 01:44PM

seamus wrote: »

And? Does their citizenship confer on them an automatic right to state aid? You wouldn't go to a different country if you didn't have a job there, why would you come home under the same circumstances?

Get rid of this entitlement lark. They left and haven't been paying taxes here. They have no entitlement to anything just by virtue of where they happened to be born.

Read the article Seamus.

Some of them have been gone for less than 18 months man!

I'm lucky enough that I have a job, and I count my blessings everyday that I have it.

Something like having to claim the doles probably never going to happen to you though is it?

There but by the grace of God.

mikemac · 28-10-2010 01:45PM

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

Do they pay PRSI?

_feedback_ · 28-10-2010 01:45PM

I agree that it doesn't exactly entice them to come back, but they chose to leave and therefore lost any entitlements they may have had.

Gucky wrote: »

Some of them have been gone for less than 18 months man!

It obviously didn't work out when they left. Plenty stayed here.

Ghandee · 28-10-2010 01:46PM

prinz wrote: »

I see you still haven't quite grasped it yet Alannis.

Not yet, artist formerly known as.

dearg lady · 28-10-2010 01:47PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Do they pay PRSI?

Yes, but a lower rate than an employee

seamus · 28-10-2010 01:47PM

Gucky wrote: »

Some of them have been gone for less than 18 months man!

But they still hadn't paid tax for a while before that. I wonder how many of these are people who went "travelling" for 3 years and came home to sign on, finding out that it's not that simple.

Something like having to claim the doles probably never going to happen to you though is it?

It could, but then I've been paying my taxes, so I'm entitled to state support if such a thing were to happen.
If I lost my job and went to the States, and I'm not going to start complaining when I can't get dole money from the Fed.

Jarren · 28-10-2010 01:48PM

they have been refused JSA on following grounds

4. HABITUAL RESIDENCE - National law
The habitual residence condition is included in the particular Section listing the conditions of entitlement for each of the relevant schemes.

In addition, Section 246 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 provides that:

"it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown, that a person is not habitually resident in the State at the date of the making of the application concerned unless he has been present in the State or any other part of the Common Travel Area for a continuous period of 2 years ending on that date."

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/habres.aspx

It's the law

TheZohanS · 28-10-2010 01:48PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Do they pay PRSI?

At a different rate, yes.

jimmycrackcorm · 28-10-2010 01:49PM

Sea Sharp wrote: »

Neither can the son of a self employed person who can't afford to move out. :mad::mad:

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

_feedback_ · 28-10-2010 01:51PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

Fifteen posts to blame the foreigners? You can do better than that. :pac:

TheZohanS · 28-10-2010 01:52PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

So can an Irish person, but you have to be working and paying tax regardless of what EU nationality you are.

Dacelonid · 28-10-2010 01:52PM

seamus wrote: »

And? Does their citizenship confer on them an automatic right to state aid? You wouldn't go to a different country if you didn't have a job there, why would you come home under the same circumstances?

Get rid of this entitlement lark. They left and haven't been paying taxes here. They have no entitlement to anything just by virtue of where they happened to be born.

We had this argument at lunch and this was my stance. They haven't contributed anything to our economy in the last few years, why should they get the benefit of our (imo) over generous welfare system.

Lets just say I was in a minority with this argument.

jackiebaron · 28-10-2010 01:52PM

TheZohan wrote: »

It's not all that shocking, a self-employed person can't claim the dole either no matter how much tax they pay.

Wait a minute....I thought that every legal resident of Ireland could go on the Nat King Cole if they had no means of support or income. I thought that you could get some form of government assistance even if you had never worked a day in your life. Is this not so? Who are the people who will receive not a red cent in dole and how do they survive? Begging? Crime? Charities?

seamus · 28-10-2010 01:54PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But the children of Polish worker here get childrens allowance when they may be actually living Poland.

And the children of Irish workers living in Poland can get the relevant children's allowance even though they may actually be living in Ireland.

Shock, horror, we're part of an equitable system but we complain when we're asked to contribute our fair share.

Look, the basis here is that if you become unemployed then you should rely on the welfare system of the country in which you were employed, to support you while you look for a job.

If you went to a country that has no support for jobseekers, then that's the choice you made when you emigrated.

Change the context of the article so that it's referring to Polish workers who used to work in Ireland, but then left Ireland to work in Poland and later came back to Ireland when they lost their job. Would we have any sympathy? Of course not.

senordingdong · 28-10-2010 01:57PM

Is it as easy for an Irish person to sign on in another EU country?

jackiebaron · 28-10-2010 01:57PM

elviscostello wrote: »

I agree that it doesn't exactly entice them to come back, but they chose to leave and therefore lost any entitlements they may have had.

It obviously didn't work out when they left. Plenty stayed here.

What entitlements does one forfeit if one leaves the country and can you direct me to where you got this information? Also what is the time limit for forfeiture of rights/entitlements? How long can you stay out of the country and return so that your entitlements are still in place?

Canis Lupus · 28-10-2010 01:58PM

Sweet so after 5 years in London now I'm being made redundant I can go home to Ireland and claim the dole. Happy days :P

ejmaztec · 28-10-2010 02:01PM

The article doesn't actually specify which countries all of the refused have come from, but I'd imagine that anyone coming back from the UK at least, wouldn't have much of a problem, given the relationship that exists between the two jurisdictions.

Of course, I could be talking through my hole, and perhaps someone will let me know.:(

The Waltzing Consumer · 28-10-2010 02:02PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

What entitlements does one forfeit if one leaves the country and can you direct me to where you got this information? Also what is the time limit for forfeiture of rights/entitlements? How long can you stay out of the country and return so that your entitlements are still in place?

this gives you the info

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/habres.aspx

jackiebaron · 28-10-2010 02:09PM

Dacelonid wrote: »

We had this argument at lunch and this was my stance. They haven't contributed anything to our economy in the last few years, why should they get the benefit of our (imo) over generous welfare system.

Lets just say I was in a minority with this argument.

But what about the ones who HAVE been paying taxes albeit it in another EU country like England or Germany. Surely European tax must count for something with regards to welfare? What's all this hokum about border transparency, free movement of goods and labour, yada yada? I was under the impression that if you qualified for the dole in Ireland then you could go off to another EU country and collect your dole there while searching for work. Likewise I was under the impression that if you worked for a few years in say France then got laid off you could return to Ireland, claim dole and search for work there. Just because someone hasn't paid taxes (by virtue of not being in the country) should not exempt them from the services that others enjoy. What are you going to do kick them out of public parks, refuse them access to footpaths, etc. because they haven't contributed to the upkeep of these amenities?

seamus · 28-10-2010 02:11PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

But what about the ones who HAVE been paying taxes albeit it in another EU country like England or Germany.

They can most likely claim social welfare from those states for a certain amount of time even if they're not living there any longer.

_feedback_ · 28-10-2010 02:12PM

jackiebaron wrote: »

What entitlements does one forfeit if one leaves the country and can you direct me to where you got this information? Also what is the time limit for forfeiture of rights/entitlements? How long can you stay out of the country and return so that your entitlements are still in place?

Sorry, maybe you took that up as I was stating a fact. Even though there are laws in place, I was merely stating my opinion that they don't deserve to be entitled to claim after coming back.

I've had a tough ride over the past few years here. I could have taken the opportunity to sail off in to the sunset and come back when things improved.

I don't think they should be able to wander back in and claim straight away. Stick it out here if you want to claim. Or bring back some money from your little adventure.

ottostreet · 28-10-2010 02:14PM

If anyone in here knows of someone affected by this rule, could they PM me please!

charlemont · 28-10-2010 02:19PM

the irish government dosent want these people to return as they see them as a threat as its more likely these returning irish wont vote fianna fail in the next election.. lots of immigrants were brought here by the friends of fianna fail to work so they are hoping the immigrants that have the right to vote will remember them..the sooner the head is cut of the monster we call fianna fail the better, the are a shower of scum and traitors..

munchkin_utd · 28-10-2010 02:19PM

that is one of the best laws that the Irish TDs actually managed to bring as legislation
(you have to remember that they have very little time for laws between getting people into hospitals and out of prision. Its a wonder theres any laws at all... anyhow...)

Anyone remember about 10 or 12 years ago how it was in Galway out in the Claddagh?
Every feckin crusty from every corner of Europe was permanently camped in Galway, havin the crack and paying for it thanks to the Irish social welfare system. And thats when the dole was utter crap.
This law sent them packing damn bloody quick though!!!

Its unfortunate that Irish in the US or Australia cant get free rent and 200 quid a week in the pocket from the Irish government when they decide to land back, but tough.

Also, suppose the law was made more liberal, what would an unintented consequence be?
To compare a country with lower welfare rates, the dole in Poland is 120 Euro a MONTH (not week, month).
Theres 26 million of working age
of that 9% unemployment so 2.3 million on Polish crap dole that are probably not the happiest campers.

Imagine IF they could up sticks and land to Ireland and get 200 quid a week beer money for doin SFA? And their accomodation paid for. And medical and other little odds and ends bertie gave in the giveaway budgets???
How many would land for the better dole?? tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
AND thats also to take into account that the average wage there is 800 Euro a month BEFORE tax in Poland**
Why would you work in Poland when you could doss in Ireland and end up with more in the pocket???

Even germany has a much worse social welfare rate than Ireland. And theres 3 million there who could probably swap their drab innercity lives for a bit of drizzle for the luxory of 200 a week beer money PLUS free accomodation.

Ireland MUST have a law that somehow makes it difficult for the 10s of millions of unemployed across europe to swap their menial existance in their homeland for the lucrative extravaganza that is the irish welfare system.

**http://www.thenews.pl/business/artykul117027_average_salary_on_the_rise.html

Over 3000 returning Irish being refused the dole.

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