Support for Fianna Fail has "collapsed to an unprecedented low"

Big Nasty · 25-10-2010 07:37PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Nope. Make up your own mind. You either want the same ****e all over again for another 5 years or you don't...

So you can't answer me then?

Big Nasty · 25-10-2010 07:38PM

desertcircus wrote: »

Oppositions don't win elections; governments lose them.

FG and Labour have made it clear that they wouldn't have passed NAMA. That alone is enough reason to vote for them. A government with some form of brake on any cosy relations with developers is another reason. Aside from that, oppositions tend not to go heavy on the detailed policy proposals without an election in the offing; it's too easy for the government to steal the idea and take the credit.

I haven't heard a massive amount of policy proposals from the two main opposition parties; I have, however, heard enough to convince me that they'll do better than FF have.

Same thing really, you cement why I shouldn't vote FF but openly admit that you can't say why any other party would be better.

Pherekydes · 25-10-2010 07:41PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

So you can't answer me then?

Why don't YOU give us YOUR voting intentions, and your reasons for voting that way?

Big Nasty · 25-10-2010 07:44PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Why don't YOU give us YOUR voting intentions, and your reasons for voting that way?

Because I honestly don't know! I always voted FF as my family always did the same. It seemed like a pretty good idea up until 2 years back. I'm open to voting for other parties if someone could give me good enough reason to bar repeating 'they can't do any worse than the other shower'.

gurramok · 25-10-2010 07:44PM

I can see where Mr Roman Numbers is coming from. Neither FG or Labour shouted stop during teh bubble years pre 2007 and their councillors along with FF rezoned land for a million homes to the benefit of local developers without giving a damn about the future of the country.

What am i saying? We need a brand new party.

desertcircus · 25-10-2010 07:48PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Same thing really, you cement why I shouldn't vote FF but openly admit that you can't say why any other party would be better.

Not correct. I pointed out a very recent example of FF passing legislation when better options from both FG and Labour were on the table. They've both shown better judgment than FF in the past few years, their links to developers are weaker, and the policy statements that have been made have been far better than what FF have managed.

Here's a live policy: FF are planning to spend about E80m rebranding ESB and Bord Gais. Labour are on record as saying they'd be more interested in using the 80m to help people in fuel poverty. What do you think the country needs more of, eighty million in new logos or eighty million in heating for people at the end of their financial resources?

Liam Byrne · 25-10-2010 07:52PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

How about you tell me who you would vote for and why - excluding the above reasons.

Why "exclude the above reasons" ?

You asked for reasons, and were given them.

I mean, even the whole concept of the thread is arseways. You've previously voted FF (even up to two years ago) without even thinking.

Now you're asking for reasons to vote elsewhere.

Personally speaking, I believe there are very few politicians actually worth voting for.

If I come across some before the next election, and if they answer questions appropriately on my doorstep while canvassing, I will vote for them.

But even if none of them answer appropriately, that simply means that I have a duty to vote for them above FF in order to prevent FF from damaging the country even further via their cronies.

If I chose not to vote because no-one is quite good "enough", then FF might get back in.

THAT is good enough reason to vote for SOMEONE at least.

Ulysses Gaze · 25-10-2010 07:53PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

How about you tell me who you would vote for and why - excluding the above reasons.

Because FG/Labour have three potential MoF's who have spoken more cogently and coherently than St. Lenihan over the last two years on the economy.

Richard Bruton has an MPhil in Economics, was Minister for Enterprise and Employment during the Last Rainbow Colaition that drove the 1990's prosperity.

Joan Burton is a Chartered Accountant (so was McCreevy), but at least Burton doesn't subscribe to the school of Reaganomics that Chuckles does.

Michael Noonan is capable as a public speaker but I doubt he'll get the finance brief. Burton probably will.

This gives them two up on FF on the Economy straight up. Qualified people.

Big Nasty · 25-10-2010 07:53PM

desertcircus wrote: »

I haven't heard a massive amount of policy proposals from the two main opposition parties; I have, however, heard enough to convince me that they'll do better than FF have.

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Same thing really, you cement why I shouldn't vote FF but openly admit that you can't say why any other party would be better.

desertcircus wrote: »

Not correct.

Say wha?

desertcircus wrote:

Here's a live policy: FF are planning to spend about E80m rebranding ESB and Bord Gais. Labour are on record as saying they'd be more interested in using the 80m to help people in fuel poverty. What do you think the country needs more of, eighty million in new logos or eighty million in heating for people at the end of their financial resources?

With you on that one - no contest.

Celly Smunt · 25-10-2010 07:55PM

you can vote for blue,red,or yellow but it has to be yellow :rolleyes:

gurramok · 25-10-2010 07:56PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Because FG/Labour have three potential MoF's who have spoken more cogently and coherently than St. Lenihan over the last two years on the economy.

Richard Bruton has an MPhil in Economics, was Minister for Enterprise and Employment during the Last Rainbow Colaition that drove the 1990's prosperity.

Joan Burton is a Chartered Accountant (so was McCreevy), but at least Burton doesn't subscribe to the school of Reaganomics that Chuckles does.

Michael Noonan is capable as a public speaker but I doubt he'll get the finance brief. Burton probably will.

This gives them two up on FF on the Economy straight up. Qualified people.

You serious about Burton? Jesus, god help us when she is Finance Minister.

Yes, Bruton is very good. FFS, he should be leader of all the opposition. If not, Shane Ross.

Big Nasty · 25-10-2010 07:56PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Why "exclude the above reasons" ?

You asked for reasons, and were given them.

I mean, even the whole concept of the thread is arseways. You've previously voted FF (even up to two years ago) without even thinking.

Now you're asking for reasons to vote elsewhere.

Personally speaking, I believe there are very few politicians actually worth voting for.

If I come across some before the next election, and if they answer questions appropriately on my doorstep while canvassing, I will vote for them.

But even if none of them answer appropriately, that simply means that I have a duty to vote for them above FF in order to prevent FF from damaging the country even further via their cronies.

If I chose not to vote because no-one is quite good "enough", then FF might get back in.

THAT is good enough reason to vote for SOMEONE at least.

Once again you have explained why one should not vote FF but given no good reason why any other party will do better.

Big Nasty · 25-10-2010 07:58PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Because FG/Labour have three potential MoF's who have spoken more cogently and coherently than St. Lenihan over the last two years on the economy.

Richard Bruton has an MPhil in Economics, was Minister for Enterprise and Employment during the Last Rainbow Colaition that drove the 1990's prosperity.

Joan Burton is a Chartered Accountant (so was McCreevy), but at least Burton doesn't subscribe to the school of Reaganomics that Chuckles does.

Michael Noonan is capable as a public speaker but I doubt he'll get the finance brief. Burton probably will.

This gives them two up on FF on the Economy straight up. Qualified people.

Thanks Ulysses, more like what I was looking for.

sonic85 · 25-10-2010 07:59PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Once again you have explained why one should not vote FF but given no good reason why any other party will do better.

dude seriously just vote FF.

Ulysses Gaze · 25-10-2010 07:59PM

gurramok wrote: »

You serious about Burton? Jesus, god help us when she is Finance Minister.

Yes, Bruton is very good. FFS, he should be leader of all the opposition. If not, Shane Ross.

That she'll get the Finance Brief? Probably. Labour will have to get one of the biggies.

Is she capable? Wouldn't be my choice. I'd pick Bruton ahead of her. Or yes as leader of FG.

Liam Byrne · 25-10-2010 08:00PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Once again you have explained why one should not vote FF but given no good reason why any other party will do better.

OK - you obviously don't want to read my posts, so I'm out.

One final time.

1) TRACK RECORD
2) CREDIBILITY
3) CORRUPTION

Competence and policies remain to be seen, but the above 3 alone are enough for me.

Now I'm out because I cannot see how or why you aren't getting the point.

You've previously voted without thinking and are now apparently starting to put your brain in gear before voting (I presume based on the above 3 criteria); does the fact that you feel compelled to do this not tell you that you need to vote other than FF ?

And does that not register as A REASON ?

If not, then I'm going to write your posts off as part of the "I'm not a fan of FF, but....." brigade.

If I'm wrong, then fair enough, but there's no other conclusion I can come to.

fat__tony · 25-10-2010 08:01PM

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Because I honestly don't know! I always voted FF as my family always did the same. It seemed like a pretty good idea up until 2 years back. I'm open to voting for other parties if someone could give me good enough reason to bar repeating 'they can't do any worse than the other shower'.

And there it is, the old "my family always voted for them" line.

If that was the mindset of the electorate in 2007 then we truly do deserve the government we get.

God help us.

gurramok · 25-10-2010 08:07PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

That she'll get the Finance Brief? Probably. Labour will have to get one of the biggies.

Is she capable? Wouldn't be my choice. I'd pick Bruton ahead of her. Or yes as leader of FG.

Yes god help us. No pobs with Bruton, he is competent and thats from someone who distastes FG. (he as leader would entice me to vote for them!)

Thing is if the populace vote Labour on the promise of no cuts, it won't make a blind bit of difference as its the financial markets who will force them to make the necessary cuts in the public sector/welfare.

Killer Pigeon · 25-10-2010 08:15PM

skelliser wrote: »

In tomorrows SB Post.

WOOHOOO!!!!

And do you honestly think that Fine Gael are going to be any different? They're all the same except with different names.

ValJester · 25-10-2010 08:24PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

And do you honestly think that Fine Gael are going to be any different? They're all the same except with different names.

In the last 2 Fine Gael governments(82-87 and 92-95), policies were enacted which proved to a major success in the long term, with Garret Fitzgerald proving amongst our greatest Taoisigh and the Rainbow government passing social mobility legislation such as the abolition of third level fees which stimulated the confidence which made the boom possible.FG and Labour coalitions actually have a much better record of governance than post-Haughey FF.

skelliser · 25-10-2010 08:25PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

And do you honestly think that Fine Gael are going to be any different? They're all the same except with different names.

Another FF apologist with the "Im not a FF supporter, but.." brigade.

Did you guys realise that the last FG/LAB lead gov, the rainbow gov., left this country in 1997 with the following:

a budget surplus
free third level fees
rising employment
positive growth

Now fast forward to 13 years of FF/PD policies which has left us with:

worst economic crash in modern history, even war time!
13% unemployment
worst debt ratio per head of any European country
15% of mortgages in arrears, 5% technically defaulting
mass emigration
economic stagnation for at least 10 years
and the IMF knocking at the door.

So be my guest and continue with the belief that "sure they're all the same" bollox!

OPENROAD · 25-10-2010 08:27PM

ValJester wrote: »

In the last 2 Fine Gael governments(82-87 and 92-95), policies were enacted which proved to a major success in the long term, with Garret Fitzgerald proving amongst our greatest Taoisigh and the Rainbow government passing social mobility legislation such as the abolition of third level fees which stimulated the confidence which made the boom possible.FG and Labour coalitions actually have a much better record of governance than post-Haughey FF.

Define Long Term?

What I want to hear is the opposition taking leadership and looking at the waste that exists, amongst there realistic plans for the economy I want to see them taking a lead reducing there own expenses/salaries/benefits.

So far I have heard nothing from any party that inspires me with confidence, in actually fact it seems that FG have been very quiet of late

Killer Pigeon · 25-10-2010 08:30PM

skelliser wrote: »

Another FF apologist with the "Im not a FF supporter, but.." brigade.

Did you guys realise that the last FG/LAB lead gov, the rainbow gov., left this country in 1997 with the following:

Now fast forward to 13 years of FF/PD policies which has left us with:

So be my guest and continue with the belief that "sure they're all the same" bollox!

No I actually support labour ... I meant that FG and FF are more or less the same except they have different names (sorry if I didn't make that clear, it might have sounded as though I meant every party are the same).

You know that without the Labour element to those coalitions then some of those policies mightn't have been enacted at all.

OPENROAD · 25-10-2010 08:31PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No I actually support labour ... I meant that FG and FF are more or less the same except they have different names (sorry if I didn't make that clear, it might have sounded as though I meant every party are the same).

You know that without the Labour element to those coalitions then some of those policies mightn't have been enacted at all.

Do you recall Labours policy last election on Stamp Duty?

skelliser · 25-10-2010 08:31PM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

No I actually support labour ... I meant that FG and FF are more or less the same except they have different names (sorry if I didn't make that clear, it might have sounded as though I meant every party are the same).

You know that without the Labour element to those coalitions them some of those policies mightn't have been enacted at all.

oh right so! sorry!

But im just sick to death of this FF apologist tactic of throwing as much **** as possible and hoping it sticks.

PeterIanStaker · 25-10-2010 08:33PM

Polls dont mean a damn thing, people will still vote for their local FF gombeen out of habit.

also no other party is worth a f*ck.

OPENROAD · 25-10-2010 08:34PM

skelliser wrote: »

Another FF apologist with the "Im not a FF supporter, but.." brigade.

Did you guys realise that the last FG/LAB lead gov, the rainbow gov., left this country in 1997 with the following:

Now fast forward to 13 years of FF/PD policies which has left us with:

So be my guest and continue with the belief that "sure they're all the same" bollox!

That may well be the case, but honestly I'm hearing nothing at the moment from any of our TD's that will make me vote for any of them.

I'm a floating voter, if I am going to be convinced to vote for anyone, I don't want to hear about something over a decade ago, I want to know what they will do that, and I want those policies to be actually realistic

ValJester · 25-10-2010 08:36PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

Define Long Term?

A) Fitzgerald's economic policies are to thank for the recovery through stemming the crisis and beginning the slow transition to a social democracy by bringing public spending and debt under control whilst also improving educational infrastructure.

B)The Rainbow Coalition stimulated confidence by virtue of establishing a solid socially democratic base of strong education and encoruaging foreign investment.Without Fitzgerald the Irish workforce would not have been anywhere near as capable as it was in 1995 to attract the likes of Dell, which in term stimulated the Celtic Tiger.

FF mismanaged it completely, with McCreevy's economic policies and free-market libertarianism being viewed even then as unwise.

Killer Pigeon · 25-10-2010 08:39PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

Do you recall Labours policy last election on Stamp Duty?

No, I was probably too young to care then, I believe these where labour's policies as of November 2006:

Stamp Duty. Stamp Duty is payable on all dwellings
above &#56256;&#56321;317,000 for first time buyers. Once the dwelling
costs more than that threshold, Stamp Duty is payable
on the full amount. In some areas, there are now no
dwellings available to first-time buyers below &#56256;&#56321;317,000.
And in many cases, families who need to trade up from
their first home are now subject to very severe Stamp
Duties.
Labour believes that the most equitable reform of Stamp
Duty is to introduce a Stamp Duty Allowance or Tax
Credit which attaches to the Family Home or Domestic
dwelling. i.e. it would not apply to second homes or
investment properties. Stamp Duty would then
effectively only be payable on the amount over the
threshold.
10
Stamp Duty thresholds and values should be indexed
on an annual basis.

http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/towards_new_housing_plan_nov06.pdf

skelliser · 25-10-2010 08:44PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

That may well be the case, but honestly I'm hearing nothing at the moment from any of our TD's that will make me vote for any of them.

I'm a floating voter, if I am going to be convinced to vote for anyone, I don't want to hear about something over a decade ago, I want to know what they will do that, and I want those policies to be actually realistic

So your not goin to base your judgement on they're record in office!
Your just goin to listen to the best idea and ignore the past!

jesus! i give up!

Support for Fianna Fail has "collapsed to an unprecedented low"

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