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Forced Culture

13567…18

Comments

  • #62
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,437 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Absolutely. And its done in such a way to make sure they have no interest in it at all.

    To really get enthusiastic about a subject you need to explore it not learn off poems, conjugate verbs, stand in a freezing field with a sliotar. no effort is made to cultivate or nurture enthusiasm. hust learn the thing because its going to be on the exam

    Schools force everyone into one way of thinking, or they try to anyway, its particularly bad for teens when theyre trying to find their own individuality.

    I hated all irish subjects in school but love them all now (bar gaa)

    Excellent post, Admitedly the approach to cultural learning is wrong in this country and for the most part is done in such a manner that kids do not wish to learn particular subjects be it language or others.

    However would you or would you no agree that it is valid to retain a compulsory association with the irish language. Besides our shared history, is not a nations native tongue something that should be preserved, and or promoted through proper defined teaching methods.

    I would fear that if removed from the mandatory list most children would not gain access to this and or not choose to gain access. The teaching of it would maintain no special significance and frankly with funding and what not the vast majority of schools may remove from the curriculum and base the staff elsewhere.

    Culturally yes i do believe that a shared cultural approach to education works. Be it by native sport or associated activities this can hardly be a bad thing when so many children these days are physically disassociated through social networking sites / online gaming / television.

    The view that some posters on here have an abhorent 'hatrid' to a subject i would term as it being presented to them in a crude and ill though out manner. But that again is another thread..


  • #63
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    As for Dublin I've never met anyone, who wasn't from the country, who regarded football as anything other then soccer. That's why Liam's statment that the word "football" in Ireland always means gaelic is nonsense.

    I guess the All-Ireland Football Final is a soccer match, so ?
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    How about sticking to established conventions in Ireland? Personally I like gaelic I even used to play it, but it was never referred to as football where I'm from.

    As you said yourself, it's not an established convention in "Ireland" to refer to soccer as "football"; it may well be in Dublin, for whatever reason, but most of "the country" including the other cities view it as I do, so therefore the "established convention" backs me up.

    Is "soccer" a universal convention across the country ? No. But it's certainly a majority convention.

    Just as a matter of interest - if you were going to play indoor "xxxxxxxx", what do you call it ? I can honestly say that I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "indoor football".


  • #64
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    listermint wrote: »
    Besides our shared history, is not a nations native tongue something that should be preserved, and or promoted through proper defined teaching methods.

    But I don't see how it is ethical to use the education system to further one's cultural aims? Your reasoning above does not consider the child. You're teaching them Irish for the good of the language only. Surely an education system should based around what's best for the child?
    listermint wrote: »
    I would fear that if removed from the mandatory list most children would not gain access to this and or not choose to gain access.

    Well, you could make it mandatory for schools to at least offer Irish.

    If people aren't taking it up, then is that not evidence that people simply don't care? You may think it's important, but if so many students don't want to do it it's obvious that a significant proportion of our country does not share your view.

    The question is: why do you get to decide what is important?


  • #65
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    listermint wrote: »

    However would you or would you no agree that it is valid to retain a compulsory association with the irish language. Besides our shared history, is not a nations native tongue something that should be preserved, and or promoted through proper defined teaching methods.

    I would fear that if removed from the mandatory list most children would not gain access to this and or not choose to gain access. The teaching of it would maintain no special significance and frankly with funding and what not the vast majority of schools may remove from the curriculum and base the staff elsewhere.

    Culturally yes i do believe that a shared cultural approach to education works. Be it by native sport or associated activities this can hardly be a bad thing when so many children these days are physically disassociated through social networking sites / online gaming / television.

    The view that some posters on here have an abhorent 'hatrid' to a subject i would term as it being presented to them in a crude and ill though out manner. But that again is another thread..

    Im torn on this one. Yes i hated Irish in school, just barely got a D in pass in the leaving. As an adult I have paid close to a grand in Irish lessons to try and get it back but I still dont think 'god, if only i paid attention in school' because even if I was enthusiastic in school I still wouldnt have learned it as not one conversation was conducted in Irish in my 14 years there.

    More generally, if its compulsory then enthusiasm wanes and becomes to some people the sole possesion of mad nationalists. If its optional there may be a drop off for the 3 years between junior and leaving cert but could become more relevant in adulthood.

    Its like the way most kids who were forced to learn a musical instrument will not continue it into adulthood and then regret they didnt keep it up


  • #66
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I guess the All-Ireland Football Final is a soccer match, so ?
    No, it's a gaelic match.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    As you said yourself, it's not an established convention in "Ireland" to refer to soccer as "football"; it may well be in Dublin, for whatever reason, but most of "the country" including the other cities view it as I do, so therefore the "established convention" backs me up.
    Seeing as both Monaghan and Dublin are iboth n Ireland then it is not established convention to call gaelic football throughout Ireland.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Is "soccer" a universal convention across the country ? No. But it's certainly a majority convention.
    Right so it's not established convention throughout the country, only in specific areas.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Just as a matter of interest - if you were going to play indoor "xxxxxxxx", what do you call it ? I can honestly say that I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "indoor football".
    You mean indoor soccer? You realise indoor soccer has a completely different rule set to normal soccer and isn't the same sport, right?


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  • #67
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    The simple answer in my view is reform how Irish is thought first and then make it optional for the LC


  • #68
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    But I don't see how it is ethical to use the education system to further one's cultural aims? Your reasoning above does not consider the child. You're teaching them Irish for the good of the language only. Surely an education system should based around what's best for the child?

    The child might be better off running in a field all day rather than learning anything, in terms of mental health. The regimented nature of schools is a form of training for the later life of work.

    Of course, if what is "good for the child" means training in the society they have to become adult in, then English is better than Irish, and science better than both, and history not useful at all. In fact education is about telling people about the world, including the culture, they grow up in and passing on the knowledge of generations.

    All that said, Irish should not be compulsory - the middle classes would still learn it.


  • #69
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    But I don't see how it is ethical to use the education system to further one's cultural aims? Your reasoning above does not consider the child. You're teaching them Irish for the good of the language only. Surely an education system should based around what's best for the child?



    Well, you could make it mandatory for schools to at least offer Irish.

    If people aren't taking it up, then is that not evidence that people simply don't care? You may think it's important, but if so many students don't want to do it it's obvious that a significant proportion of our country does not share your view.

    The question is: why do you get to decide what is important?

    In fairness, if kids could drop maths they would.

    Are you saying that culture is not benificial to a child? I wouldnt think so. Its just ours is taught and portayed negetively when it can be a wonderfully positive thing for a person to know all about their own and other people cultures.

    Im not arguing it should be compulsory or not, im still on the fence
    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

    The question is: why do you get to decide what is important?

    Hes not making a decission, hes putting forward an arguement. All decisions like this are made by adults upon arguements put forward by adults


  • #70
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No, it's a gaelic match.


    You mean indoor soccer? You realise indoor soccer has a completely different rule set to normal soccer and isn't the same sport, right?

    its not called indoor football, however, and what it has in common with soccer is the main rules - no handling except for one speciality position, the goal keeper. it sure as hell isnt indoor rugby.

    I was sitting beside a woman from Australia on the bus recently who preferred soccer to "football" - she was Australian. She meant rugby, as far as I can tell. The major team sport involving a ball in most countries is called football - in Ireland it changes depending on how popular the game is in every region.


  • #71
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Irish history is a long and sorry tale of invasion, persecution, and warfare going back centuries. You don't have to like that it is taught, but taught it will be. And to the immense credit of the Irish education system, it somehow doesn't turn out hordes of anti-English zealots. Most Irish people recognise that the past is the past. As for the Irish language, I'd view it as a vital and interesting part of the school curriculum. The way it's taught is a tragedy, however I believe the DoE is taking steps to address that.

    Every country's history is a tale of invasion, persecution and warfare. Even the "Saxon foe" was invaded by Normans, the French, Dutch (Willem van Oranje). I don't think history should be "national" history, but an account of the general technological, social and artistic events of each time.


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  • #72
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    The major team sport involving a ball in most countries is called football - in Ireland it changes depending on how popular the game is in every region.
    I agree with you, which is why Liam is wrong when he say's calling gaelic football is the "established convention" in Ireland.


  • #73
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #74
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The negatives out-weigh the positives. Both are taught. the Industrial revolution is taught, and where it happened, and how.
    Every country's history is a tale of invasion, persecution and warfare. Even the "Saxon foe" was invaded by Normans, the French, Dutch (Willem van Oranje). I don't think history should be "national" history, but an account of the general technological, social and artistic events of each time.

    That would not be history. It would also be, what the American left calls Euro-centric, and in Ireland would be a myth of largely British progress in the Whig version of history; ignoring the events that shaped the actual land that Irish people lived on.

    Happlily for some of the people on this thread, many a vox pop in the UK and the US reveals the kind of systemic lack of knowledge of their own history; ask people who the Normans were and you get a blank stare.
    However, I said already without any formal knowledge of history you are going to pick up the "narrative" from the built environment, and folk histories. Hence the spanish inquisition in the UK which gets a bad press from people who have no idea of the context, or little historical understanding, or any idea what it was. The Crusades too. THe Empire, on the other hand, is broadly ignored.

    A recent Guardian column on religion saw a typical rehashing of the crusades in the commentary at the bottom. I popped into point out that Islam was winning the general war at the time ( of which the Crusades were a battle), and that a certain Empire had been back to the same area, and much more of it, in the meantime. In living memory. However that didnt fit the anti-religious and anti-Catholic narrative. Apparantly English Catholics invading one city in 1200, or so, has more purchase on the uneducated mind than an Empire which ran 25% of the globe not that long ago.

    Without formal history you get soundbites.

    In any case the problem here with the anti-nationalists is not that Ireland is teaching a comprehensive history in it's schools - which it is ( as one of seven subjects) but that the actual facts of that history do not accord with their own particular, and equally nationalistic, views on the benign English and their lovely treatment of the population.


  • #75
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #76
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Which positives are taught, in Irish history? Even in junior cert I learned about the reformation is a generally good light, and the industrial revolution and Scottish enlightenment. As generally good for the world.


  • #77
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Well it is the historyof Ireland.
    Can you show me anywhere in Irish history textbooks where the British are noted for having made a positive contribution to life in Ireland?

    The book said quite clearly that several improvments were made by the concervatives in their policy of Killing home rule with kindness.
    Frankly, Irish history as taught in schools is a exemplary case of "What 'av the Romans ever done for us?"


    Ha, Do you think British (mis)Rule was a positive thing for this country?


  • #78
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #79
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No, it's a gaelic match.

    That it is, but it's called "The All-Ireland Football Final", and everyone knows what that means.
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Seeing as both Monaghan and Dublin are iboth n Ireland then it is not established convention to call gaelic football throughout Ireland.

    So what do Monaghan & Dublin people mean when they say "All Ireland Football Final" ?
    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You mean indoor soccer? You realise indoor soccer has a completely different rule set to normal soccer and isn't the same sport, right?

    I do, just like Rugby Football has a different rule set to American Football.....but why do you call it indoor soccer ? Why don't you call it indoor football ?

    I'm consistent in what I call both, so that's why you're the one that needs to explain.

    Soccer is the football game that doesn't allow you to handle the ball. There's an indoor version of it, called indoor soccer, but it's still soccer.


  • #80
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    Read the book, It dose state what was done by the Concervatives as part of their Killing home rule with kindness policy.
    Countiy councils and dropping coercion, The land acts.


  • #81
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,437 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    But I don't see how it is ethical to use the education system to further one's cultural aims? Your reasoning above does not consider the child. You're teaching them Irish for the good of the language only. Surely an education system should based around what's best for the child?

    And Education system is based around what is good for the child, Yes. But education fundamentally is designed so that child can be successful within society.( That nations society ) As a whole. Which is why due to economic driven demands so much emphasis has been put on sciences and maths recently.
    Is it not a justified case to retain a strong link to our combined historys if this takes place in a language so be it. This is Ireland, Why not teach Irish.
    I do believe your point on well being for the child is mute. We are living in the developed world. children here are educated to quite a high standard, up amongst the best on the planet.
    As stated a few posts ago, whats good for the child is decided out of the classroom by collective adult opinion. Some would say that home schooling is great some would say not. Thats the point. You cannot satisfy everyone but guides and rules are in place so satisfy national conditions not personal. I think you are making this more personal. But thats my opinion.


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Well, you could make it mandatory for schools to at least offer Irish.

    If people aren't taking it up, then is that not evidence that people simply don't care? You may think it's important, but if so many students don't want to do it it's obvious that a significant proportion of our country does not share your view.

    The question is: why do you get to decide what is important?

    Most children would choose to ditch maths and ditch english and ditch all the other subjects they dont find interesting. I know i would have without the structure there in place. So I can't see how giving the children the decision makes remotely any sense. Most are driven by what the 'group' does or whats fashionable.
    By your reasoning we should give all the children control and what would that achieve? A breakdown in the economy? No provision for educated direction?


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  • #82
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Hey, you're the one who brought other countries into it. Why, do Libertarians want to enforce a religious state now? You did mention you wanted to move to Texas, now that I think of it...
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    And I'm quite sure they teach that in their history classes as well. Is there a point lumbering over the horizon or what?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Er, the Irish were horrifically persecuted. You putting your own revisionist spin on it will never change that.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    And would you describe the majority of Irish people as "republican nationalists", a term you clearly associate with the violent actions of a minority in the North of Ireland, where as far as I am aware they don't teach the Irish state curriculum?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Then again some people view the entirety of Irish culture and history as the mud slinging of savages in wattle huts, but that doesn't grant them the ability to try to rewrite the actual history of the country in that image, or indeed the ability to do anything but appear as prejuidiced as any simplistic 19th century racial scientist.


  • #83
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    In fact education is about telling people about the world, including the culture, they grow up in and passing on the knowledge of generations.

    Yes, I agree. But, as I said earlier, in terms of the different components of Irish culture - history, song, literature etc - the Irish language itself pales in comparison in terms of signifigance.

    Even in a strictly non-cultural utilitarian sense there is something to be had out of reading and learning about history. Any merit Irish has in this sense is very weak, and is something that can be found in other languages anyway.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    In fairness, if kids could drop maths they would.

    Maths is much more important than Irish.
    sensibleken wrote: »
    Hes not making a decission, hes putting forward an arguement. All decisions like this are made by adults upon arguements put forward by adults

    But the argument is that some adult is allowed to decide what every other adult's child studies. In the case of core subjects, like maths and English, this is well and proper. In the case of Irish, where its implementation in the education system is merely to promote the language and is not for the good of the child, it is not well and proper.


  • #84
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    listermint wrote: »
    As a whole. Which is why due to economic driven demands so much emphasis has been put on sciences and maths recently.

    I agree, but I don't see how this:
    listermint wrote: »
    Is it not a justified case to retain a strong link to our combined historys if this takes place in a language so be it. This is Ireland, Why not teach Irish.

    has anything to do with that.
    listermint wrote: »
    I think you are making this more personal. But thats my opinion.

    Yes, I suppose I am. If and when I have children I will take a very personal interest in their education. I intend it to be the best it can be. I don't think that learning Irish will contribute much to their life, and, furthermore, there's a 90% chance that when they grow up they'll agree with me.
    listermint wrote: »
    So I can't see how giving the children the decision makes remotely any sense.

    I'm sorry if I suggested that. :o I meant the child's parents and/or guardians should have the choice.


  • #85
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,437 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Thank you again for your reply.

    So by removing the onus of Irish within education would this not then effectively kill off the language ? What value is there in killing of the language that has been used for centuries on this island?

    In your own words you take the teaching of it very personally, and later suggest that you are sure that your own future children will 90% agree with the view point that it is effectively 'useless' to them.

    But are you not by projecting your own personal view point on your children emulating everything that you have posted against in this thread?

    In summation, what literal 'harm' does an additional language do to the children. In does need regimented restructuring in its approach. But any linguist will tell you, Language needs to be nurtured not derided.


  • #86
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    Yes, I suppose I am. If and when I have children I will take a very personal interest in their education. I intend it to be the best it can be. I don't think that learning Irish will contribute much to their life, and, furthermore, there's a 90% chance that when they grow up they'll agree with me.

    Where do you get that % from?

    Of course if you teach them not to value Irish they probably wont but then you are really sabotageing their experience of it.


  • #87
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I'll point out again that there is a long-running and active thread on the Irish language on this forum. The discussion over what to call association football is also off-topic. About the only thing keeping this thread alive is the discussion of the teaching of Irish history.


  • #88
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

    But the argument is that some adult is allowed to decide what every other adult's child studies. In the case of core subjects, like maths and English, this is well and proper. In the case of Irish, where its implementation in the education system is merely to promote the language and is not for the good of the child, it is not well and proper.

    which is the case for all subjects. some adults decide whats on the curricular for all kids, its not a democracy.

    English is a good example, what use is shakespeare, milton or any other important aspects of british culture?

    none, but its good to learn them.


  • #89
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    The negatives out-weigh the positives.
    A millennium of history judged in one sweeping sentence. History is history, it should be understood, not weighed, judged and a final score given. Perhaps the push for re-imposition of ancient Irish cultural affectations is some kind of rematch or penalty shoot-out?
    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    However that didnt fit the anti-religious and anti-Catholic narrative. Apparantly English Catholics invading one city in 1200,
    I didn't know English Catholics had mastered time travel.


  • #90
    eddyc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭eddyc


    sensibleken wrote: »
    which is the case for all subjects. some adults decide whats on the curricular for all kids, its not a democracy.

    English is a good example, what use is shakespeare, milton or any other important aspects of british culture?

    none, but its good to learn them.

    Because its a part of our culture, my German girlfriend studied Joyce and Yeats at University, her seminar was called British literature.

    Its strange how the influence of British culture on Irish culture is so downplayed considering many Irish people actively take part in it everyday.


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  • #91
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    That it is, but it's called "The All-Ireland Football Final", and everyone knows what that means.

    So what do Monaghan & Dublin people mean when they say "All Ireland Football Final" ?
    They mean gaelic football. Obviously.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I do, just like Rugby Football has a different rule set to American Football.....but why do you call it indoor soccer ? Why don't you call it indoor football ?
    I don't know, I didn't name the sport. But I do know that the official name of soccer is association football.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Soccer is the football game that doesn't allow you to handle the ball. There's an indoor version of it, called indoor soccer, but it's still soccer.
    And what's the official name of soccer?


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