Forced Culture

listermint

Do you believe our culture or cultures in general are forced upon children during their school years. Learing language / irish specfic sports / nationlism etc.

Or do you believe that schools do indeed make some effort to enlighten children to other aspects of cultural identity



This thread i start in response to a thread on republicanism. Which admitedly was going off topic to the main OP.

OhNoYouDidn't

To be fair, I think they do...

Very few schools these days are Gah and Rugby only and all offer multiple foreign languages, and would offer more if resources were available.

Even the darkest Brothers school has a football team now.

Permabear

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OhNoYouDidn't

donegalfella wrote: »

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Can you provide me with any examples of education systems where indiginious culture, language and partisan history is not taught?

I'm not particulary arguing that you are wrong, but all education, especially history, is to some element subjective. What are you actually proposing as an alternative?

Or put another way, they teach the majority accepted narratives of culture and history

cyclopath2001

listermint wrote: »

Or do you believe that schools do indeed make some effort to enlighten children to other aspects of cultural identity

Yes, the English contribution to our cultural identity has been repressed and made a matter of shame.

p1akuw47h5r3it

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

To be fair, I think they do...

Very few schools these days are Gah and Rugby only and all offer multiple foreign languages, and would offer more if resources were available.

Even the darkest Brothers school has a football team now.

All the brothers schools in my area don't. So this isn't necessarily true:)

OhNoYouDidn't

DanDan6592 wrote: »

All the brothers schools in my area don't. So this isn't necessarily true:)

Really? Do you mind me asking where you are based?

If so, its a bit surreal that the most played game, by a mile, in the land isn't even offered to the older kids.

Liam Byrne

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Even the darkest Brothers school has a football team now.

Our Brothers school had a football team, but was more focussed on hurling. I used to have no interest in hurling at the time - I do nowadays - but at the time it was like being a leper on Harty Cup days.

I think they even have a soccer team nowadays!

There's nothing wrong with highlighting our own culture to give it a chance against some of the cultural stuff that's all over satellite tv and media.

If someone's interested, then great.
If not, it shouldn't be forced on them any more than that.

Eliot Rosewater

listermint wrote: »

Do you believe our culture or cultures in general are forced upon children during their school years. Learing language / irish specfic sports / nationlism etc.

Learning the language, certainly. The compulsory teaching of Irish has always been motivated from a cultural point of view. The Corinthian once put it very succinctly: Irish is obligatory so as to promote Irish, not for the education of the child.

However, the notion of a shared "Irish culture", if it exists, is far broader than merely the Irish language. In fact the greatest success of Irish academic culture has been in the field of non-Irish literature. Think of all the great writers who have come from Ireland: Oscar Wilde, Johnathon Swift, James Joyce, WB Yeats, Samuel Beckett etc etc.

Also, someone's idea of culture can be individual to themselves. The concept of a very specific homogeneous "Irish culture" that everyone subscribes to is far too general a concept for my liking. Different people prefer different cultural pursuits. I like reading English literature. Some people like playing traditional music. Others like speaking Irish. Fair enough. But the policy of compulsory Irish ignores these distinctions, and basically tells every student that the language is their culture, is something they should praise, even if they disagree.

Some parts of our broad culture - our history, for instance - are relevant to everyone. So the question becomes: what cultural things should we teach?

Drinking Stout?

OhNoYouDidn't

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Our Brothers school had a football team, but was more focussed on hurling. I used to have no interest in hurling at the time - I do nowadays - but at the time it was like being a leper on Harty Cup days.

I think they even have a soccer team nowadays!

There's nothing wrong with highlighting our own culture to give it a chance against some of the cultural stuff that's all over satellite tv and media.

If someone's interested, then great.
If not, it shouldn't be forced on them any more than that.

I'm from Dublin. Football is football. Gaelic is Gaelic.

Permabear

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OhNoYouDidn't

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Learning the language, certainly. The compulsory teaching of Irish has always been motivated from a cultural point of view. The Corinthian once put it very succinctly: Irish is obligatory so as to promote Irish, not for the education of the child.

However, the notion of a shared "Irish culture", if it exists, is far broader than merely the Irish language. In fact the greatest success of Irish academic culture has been in the field of non-Irish literature. Think of all the great writers who have come from Ireland: Oscar Wilde, Johnathon Swift, James Joyce, WB Yeats, Samuel Beckett etc etc.

Also, someone's idea of culture can be individual to themselves. The concept of a very specific homogeneous "Irish culture" that everyone subscribes to is far too general a concept for my liking. Different people prefer different cultural pursuits. I like reading English literature. Some people like playing traditional music. Others like speaking Irish. Fair enough. But the policy of compulsory Irish ignores these distinctions, and basically tells every student that the language is their culture, is something they should praise, even if they disagree.

Some parts of our broad culture - our history, for instance - are relevant to everyone. So the question becomes: what cultural things should we teach?

Drinking Stout?

Thats all very well and good. And I DESPISE the Gah centric faux nationalist bull.

But whats your alternative? Like it or not, there is a broadly accepted culture and historical narrative that the majority subscribe to. If you want to replace what you percieve as a bias, what are you going to replace it with? Your bias?

I accept its more complicated than I am making it, but Irish is the official language of the state, the Gah are considered the national game etc. Would it not be remiss to at least acknowledge that, especially for non national kids? The assumption is a zero sum game, that teaching the accepted Irish culture is somehow pushing out alternative views.

OhNoYouDidn't

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes. The Brits with Shakespeare, the Italians with Latin, Israli kids with ancient Hebrew etc.

donegalfella wrote: »

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And that narrative is generally accepted by the majority. Its a thorny issue, but I ask again, what would you teach in its place?

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, they teach the curriculem....

oscarBravo

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The Brits with Shakespeare...

You're equating Peig to Shakespeare? :eek:

cyclopath2001

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But whats your alternative? Like it or not, there is a broadly accepted culture and historical narrative that the majority subscribe to. If you want to replace what you percieve as a bias, what are you going to replace it with? Your bias?

Education needs to cultivate critical faculties so future adults will know propaganda when they see it.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Irish is the official language of the state

That's certainly what the Irish-lobby would like everyone to believe, but Irish is a national language of the state, the other national language being English.

mikemac

I played Harty Cup hurling :cool:
I was fairly useless now, but it was great. Everyone was involved, banners around the place and buses hired to bring everyone to games.

In our CBS, it was hurling or gaelic football only as team sports.
Soccer was banned though we'd kick around after school or so. And I do mean banned, you'd couldn't play it anywhere on school premises.

They brought in rugby in my last year

Oh yeah, we played rounders too, the forgotten sport of the GAA!

Liam Byrne

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm from Dublin. Football is football. Gaelic is Gaelic.

You're still from Ireland.

In Australia, "football" means "Aussie Rules"
In America, "football" means "American Football"

So basically, unless you specify the prefix, people will rightly assume the national version.

p1akuw47h5r3it

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Really? Do you mind me asking where you are based?

If so, its a bit surreal that the most played game, by a mile, in the land isn't even offered to the older kids.

You mean soccer right?

If not that is my mistake sorry. I'll PM you were I'm based.:)

Iwasfrozen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You're still from Ireland.

In Australia, "football" means "Aussie Rules"
In America, "football" means "American Football"

So basically, unless you specify the prefix, people will rightly assume the national version.

Not true.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You're still from Ireland.

In Australia, "football" means "Aussie Rules"
In America, "football" means "American Football"

So basically, unless you specify the prefix, people will rightly assume the national version.

Everyone I know refers to Gaelic football as "Gah"

Hurling as hurling

and Association football as "football"

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not true.

Care to elaborate,


It depends where you are really, If you are down in the kingdom and say 'I like Football' its unlikely they will be thinking of old traford. If you are in Dublin its likely to be mixed. That is why I would say soccer, Avoids confusion.;)

Permabear

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jimmycrackcorm

Peig is the reason we Irish don't go rioting like the French and the Greeks. Sure it's been ingrained into us that we should naturally be as miserable as her.

mikemac

I can see where this thread is going
The definition of football is debated every month over in GAA forum

I'm sure there are people who think of the cricket ground when you say Old Trafford, well it was there 49 years before the stadium in Manchester

deise go deo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sexist.:P

That a narrative is accepted by the majority is not sufficient rationale for teaching it in schools as established fact. The Biblical creation narrative would be just one example.

Irish exists and most people want it preserved and promoted, If not in schools then how?

deise go deo

feelingstressed wrote: »

I can see where this thread is going
The definition of football is debated every month over in GAA forum

I'm sure there are people who think of the cricket ground when you say Old Trafford, well it was there 49 years before the stadium in Manchester

They would be strange people indeed to think cricket grounds if Football is mentioned:pac:

Liam Byrne

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not true.

Well forgive me if I reject the "forced culture" of someone refusing to abide by established naming conventions all around the world.

Hurling is Hurling
Football is (Gaelic) Football
Soccer is Soccer
Rugby is Rugby (Football)

I guess it works both ways when some people want to impose their belief structure on others who disagree.

But I'm sticking with established conventions worldwide.

oscarBravo

This thread is heading rapidly towards locksville.

deise go deo

oscarBravo wrote: »

This thread is heading rapidly towards locksville.

Cen Fáth?

The OP isent particularly abusive although I disagree with it. I dont think anyone is breaking any rules.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish exists and most people want it preserved and promoted, If not in schools then how?

Leaving aside your debatable assertion (based one one survey of 1000 people, and sponsored by the Irish language industry) and what it actually means in terms of financial commitment, the best answer would be :

"In the home, and at the expense of those who want to speak it."

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Leaving aside your debatable assertion (based one one survey of 1000 people, and sponsored by the Irish language industry) and what it actually means in terms of financial commitment, the best answer would be :

"In the home, and at the expense of those who want to speak it."

I claim people support Irish and provide evidence, You claim otherwise and attack my evidence, Where is your evidence?

So people should not be supported by the state in their education?
Should not all learning be done in the home and at peoples own expense then? Why Force people to go to school if they dont want to, Why Force English poetry and plays on people with no interest in it? Is there any legitimate reason for this to be shoved down peoples throats? Surely it should be optional for those who want it, At their own expense of course.

Perhaps if people want to learn Irish and are being taxed for an education system then Irish should be in the education system?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I claim people support Irish and provide evidence

Your evidence is flimsy and your conclusions from that evidence are fantasies. People 'support' Irish, but that does not mean what you say.

The contradictory evidence that you ask of me is all around us, every day - a massive majority English-speaking society.

Wolfe Tone

Feck off with your soccer, tis association football.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Your evidence is flimsy and your conclusions from that evidence are fantasies. People 'support' Irish, but that does not mean what you say.

My evidence exists, Yours dose not.
You are the one entertaining the fantasy that people who speak English do not support Irish.

The contradictory evidence that you ask of me is all around us, every day - a massive majority English-speaking society.

You have simply drawn a false conclusion, You seem to think that most people speak English means that as a result most people do not support Irish. I speak English, For your argument to work I could not support Irish.

Show me figures for people in this country who do not wish Irish to be supported by the state, Mine suggest it is 7%. Where is your counter evidence?

jackbenimble

donegalfella wrote: »

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What's the situation today?

If it's changed for the better, when did the improvements begin?

deise go deo

jackbenimble wrote: »

What's the situation today?

If it's changed for the better, when did the improvements begin?

1922:D

Sand

@deise go deo

Irish exists and most people want it preserved and promoted, If not in schools then how?

Tbh, like most people, Id rather other people preserve and promote it and I dont have to pay for their efforts to preserve and promote it. Maybe they could do so by speaking it as opposed to demanding others speak it.

You go wild though. You dont need my permission to speak it.

irishh_bob

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Everyone I know refers to Gaelic football as "Gah"

Hurling as hurling

and Association football as "football"

the term gah is almost exclusively a dublin reference , in rural ireland , when people speak of football , they mean the kind where you can touch the ball with your hands

ps , i perfer soccer to gaelic

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

My evidence exists, Yours dose not.
You are the one entertaining the fantasy that people who speak English do not support Irish.

Your evidence is a survey based on a small sample of 1000 people, scripted by an organization with an economic interest in the results with the data being analysed by that same organisation. My evidence is the real, functioning, English-speaking world we both live in..... but which you deny exists.

deise go deo wrote: »

You have simply drawn a false conclusion, You seem to think that most people speak English means that as a result most people do not support Irish. I speak English, For your argument to work I could not support Irish.

Your logic is flawed. You also speak Irish, this means that you support Irish more than an English speaker who, having been given the opportunity to learn Irish, has decided not to speak Irish. Stop thinking 'for & against', it's a more like 'enthusiastic vs indifferent'.

deise go deo wrote: »

Where is your counter evidence?

4 million people conducting their lives in English. Numerous English-language TV and radio stations, some 100% privately funded. Scores of newspapers and magazines in English. Now, how many Irish-language equivalents, 100% funded by Irish-speakers?

p1akuw47h5r3it

irishh_bob wrote: »

the term gah is almost exclusively a dublin reference , in rural ireland , when people speak of football , they mean the kind where you can touch the ball with your hands

ps , i perfer soccer to gaelic

Ye your right, it's all about were you are from at the end of the day. I think we should leave at that though it's a silly debate to have!!

deise go deo wrote: »

Sexist.:P

Irish exists and most people want it preserved and promoted, If not in schools then how?

If people want to preserve it then they should preserve it themselves. It shouldn't be forced on students in all there years in school. I don't have a problem with Irish just that I was forced to learn it in school. I love studying languages and I study Russian at the moment. The thought of ever having to study Irish again however almost makes me sick though because I had such bad experiences of it in school!

Personally I think it should be taught up until 3rd year after which it should be an optional subject, along with all other subjects bar probably maths, as imo this is the most important subject taught in school.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Well forgive me if I reject the "forced culture" of someone refusing to abide by established naming conventions all around the world.

Hurling is Hurling
Football is (Gaelic) Football
Soccer is Soccer
Rugby is Rugby (Football)

I guess it works both ways when some people want to impose their belief structure on others who disagree.

But I'm sticking with established conventions worldwide.

"Soccer" is known as football in the majority of the world:p But seriously as i said no point going on about this, is pointless really:)

And I wasn't trying to enforce my opinions on you I was just saying how the majority of people I know call soccer football blah blah.... Obviously the opposite is true in your case:)

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Stop thinking 'for & against', it's a more like 'enthusiastic vs indifferent'.

Exactly!

deise go deo

Sand wrote: »

@deise go deo


Tbh, like most people, Id rather other people preserve and promote it and I dont have to pay for their efforts to preserve and promote it. Maybe they could do so by speaking it as opposed to demanding others speak it.

You go wild though. You dont need my permission to speak it.

I do speak it, I also try to get others to speak it, Talking to yourself gets boring after awhile.;)

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Your evidence is a survey based on a small sample of 1000 people, scripted by an organization with an economic interest in the results with the data being analysed by that same organisation. My evidence is the real, functioning, English-speaking world we both live in..... but which you deny exists.

Dont be foolish, I accept that Irish people generally conduct their lives through English. I disagree with your interpretation of that, You are making it out to be some sort of collective rejection of Irish, I want to see your evidence for such a rejection.

Your logic is flawed. You also speak Irish, this means that you support Irish more than an English speaker who, having been given the opportunity to learn Irish, has decided not to speak Irish. Stop thinking 'for & against', it's a more like 'enthusiastic vs indifferent'.

You claim that because people conduct their lives through English they must reject Irish, I know many people who conduct their lives through English and yet are great supporters and promoters of Irish.
No one it completely indifferent, They may hold only nominal views but they are there, There is enthusiast, Indifferent and detractor.
The survey I presented suggests that those who are indifferent generally are mildly supportive of the language and that the detractor section is quite small.

4 million people conducting their lives in English. Numerous English-language TV and radio stations, some 100% privately funded. Scores of newspapers and magazines in English. Now, how many Irish-language equivalents, 100% funded by Irish-speakers?

Again you make the assumption that useing English intails a rejection of Irish.
That dosent reflect reality, it is far to black and white.

How many schools that were Irish medium have changed to become English medium?

Amhran Nua

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Yes, the English contribution to our cultural identity has been repressed and made a matter of shame.

Perhaps that might be a matter to address when the population recovers to what it was 160 years ago.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Would you rather have them chanting "one nation under god" like they do in the US every morning?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Irish history is a long and sorry tale of invasion, persecution, and warfare going back centuries. You don't have to like that it is taught, but taught it will be. And to the immense credit of the Irish education system, it somehow doesn't turn out hordes of anti-English zealots. Most Irish people recognise that the past is the past. As for the Irish language, I'd view it as a vital and interesting part of the school curriculum. The way it's taught is a tragedy, however I believe the DoE is taking steps to address that.

Eliot Rosewater

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But whats your alternative?

Show the different viewpoints. Have children in schools debate and defend their views. You think 1916 is good? Why? What about <insert objection>?

I'm not suggesting we produce a generation of 1916-haters, by the way. I think we should train children to explore the pasts and question supposed truths.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Like it or not, there is a broadly accepted culture and historical narrative that the majority subscribe to.

Yes, but I don't think that's an excuse to teach it as absolute fact. As I said, it's possible to give different slants.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Would it not be remiss to at least acknowledge that, especially for non national kids?

Irish and the Gah (and drinking!) should not be banned! I just don't think they should be "forced".

sensibleken

listermint wrote: »

Do you believe our culture or cultures in general are forced upon children during their school years. Learing language / irish specfic sports / nationlism etc.

Or do you believe that schools do indeed make some effort to enlighten children to other aspects of cultural identity



This thread i start in response to a thread on republicanism. Which admitedly was going off topic to the main OP.

Absolutely. And its done in such a way to make sure they have no interest in it at all.

To really get enthusiastic about a subject you need to explore it not learn off poems, conjugate verbs, stand in a freezing field with a sliotar. no effort is made to cultivate or nurture enthusiasm. hust learn the thing because its going to be on the exam

Schools force everyone into one way of thinking, or they try to anyway, its particularly bad for teens when theyre trying to find their own individuality.

I hated all irish subjects in school but love them all now (bar gaa)

Liam Byrne

irishh_bob wrote: »

the term gah is almost exclusively a dublin reference , in rural ireland , when people speak of football , they mean the kind where you can touch the ball with your hands

And so do the people in the other cities

Permabear

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Rabble Rabble

plenty of people in Ireland call Soccer, Soccer.

This debate is pointless. All cultural systems teach their dominent narratives, or people pick them up. In fact anti-Catholicism in the UK has clearly spread by their rather disasterous education system, and it's built environment. And England has a utterly ridiculous victim mentality towards Catholicism, too, as can be seen by Stephen Fry's recent speech when he whined about some of the tiny group of people killed for owning a bible. These guys aren't even a statistical sideshow compared to the opposite in the UK - Catholics killed and persecuted for being Catholics in Established England.

Where does Fry get this? Well, he is a clearly uneducated man, but he would get the Bloody Mary references throughout the culture, the "spanish inquisition" references in popular speech, the built environment with it's martyrs to Catholicism outside Oxford, the statues to William Tyndale, et al.

Ireland's education system tries to redress the balance there, and even on these boards the uneducated chime in with their "spanish inquisition" nonsense.

And then there are the anti-Republicans. 1916 was about as "terrorist" as the Boston Tea Party, and very few countries get out of an Imperial system without fighting for it, unless the Empire is totally in dis-array.

So if we dont teach the real history of Ireland - which reflects badly on the UK - then that history will disappear down the memory hole, since it is hardly a dominant narrative.

Rabble Rabble

donegalfella wrote: »

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What version of history do you want, o brave libertarian?
Do we ignore the penal laws, and cromwell, and pass over the famine. Sounds to me that that "narrative" is both a lie, and a form of English nationalism.

Permabear

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Rabble Rabble

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well that was taught to a certain extent in Ireland - I was educated in two countries so I can't talk about the leaving cert, but I can about the junior cert.

For instance Gladstone is celebrated in Ireland, streets are named after him. Example: in Clonmel the second street is Gladstone Street ( while the main street is re-named after O'Connell) .