Forced Culture

listermint · 21-10-2010 05:06PM #1

Do you believe our culture or cultures in general are forced upon children during their school years. Learing language / irish specfic sports / nationlism etc.

Or do you believe that schools do indeed make some effort to enlighten children to other aspects of cultural identity

This thread i start in response to a thread on republicanism. Which admitedly was going off topic to the main OP.

OhNoYouDidn't · 21-10-2010 05:25PM

To be fair, I think they do...

Very few schools these days are Gah and Rugby only and all offer multiple foreign languages, and would offer more if resources were available.

Even the darkest Brothers school has a football team now.

Permabear · 21-10-2010 05:31PM

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OhNoYouDidn't · 21-10-2010 05:37PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Can you provide me with any examples of education systems where indiginious culture, language and partisan history is not taught?

I'm not particulary arguing that you are wrong, but all education, especially history, is to some element subjective. What are you actually proposing as an alternative?

Or put another way, they teach the majority accepted narratives of culture and history

cyclopath2001 · 21-10-2010 05:37PM

listermint wrote: »

Or do you believe that schools do indeed make some effort to enlighten children to other aspects of cultural identity

Yes, the English contribution to our cultural identity has been repressed and made a matter of shame.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 21-10-2010 05:50PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

To be fair, I think they do...

Very few schools these days are Gah and Rugby only and all offer multiple foreign languages, and would offer more if resources were available.

Even the darkest Brothers school has a football team now.

All the brothers schools in my area don't. So this isn't necessarily true:)

OhNoYouDidn't · 21-10-2010 05:52PM

DanDan6592 wrote: »

All the brothers schools in my area don't. So this isn't necessarily true:)

Really? Do you mind me asking where you are based?

If so, its a bit surreal that the most played game, by a mile, in the land isn't even offered to the older kids.

Liam Byrne · 21-10-2010 05:53PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Even the darkest Brothers school has a football team now.

Our Brothers school had a football team, but was more focussed on hurling. I used to have no interest in hurling at the time - I do nowadays - but at the time it was like being a leper on Harty Cup days.

I think they even have a soccer team nowadays!

There's nothing wrong with highlighting our own culture to give it a chance against some of the cultural stuff that's all over satellite tv and media.

If someone's interested, then great.
If not, it shouldn't be forced on them any more than that.

Eliot Rosewater · 21-10-2010 06:01PM

listermint wrote: »

Do you believe our culture or cultures in general are forced upon children during their school years. Learing language / irish specfic sports / nationlism etc.

Learning the language, certainly. The compulsory teaching of Irish has always been motivated from a cultural point of view. The Corinthian once put it very succinctly: Irish is obligatory so as to promote Irish, not for the education of the child.

However, the notion of a shared "Irish culture", if it exists, is far broader than merely the Irish language. In fact the greatest success of Irish academic culture has been in the field of non-Irish literature. Think of all the great writers who have come from Ireland: Oscar Wilde, Johnathon Swift, James Joyce, WB Yeats, Samuel Beckett etc etc.

Also, someone's idea of culture can be individual to themselves. The concept of a very specific homogeneous "Irish culture" that everyone subscribes to is far too general a concept for my liking. Different people prefer different cultural pursuits. I like reading English literature. Some people like playing traditional music. Others like speaking Irish. Fair enough. But the policy of compulsory Irish ignores these distinctions, and basically tells every student that the language is their culture, is something they should praise, even if they disagree.

Some parts of our broad culture - our history, for instance - are relevant to everyone. So the question becomes: what cultural things should we teach?

Drinking Stout?

OhNoYouDidn't · 21-10-2010 06:04PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Our Brothers school had a football team, but was more focussed on hurling. I used to have no interest in hurling at the time - I do nowadays - but at the time it was like being a leper on Harty Cup days.

I think they even have a soccer team nowadays!

There's nothing wrong with highlighting our own culture to give it a chance against some of the cultural stuff that's all over satellite tv and media.

If someone's interested, then great.
If not, it shouldn't be forced on them any more than that.

I'm from Dublin. Football is football. Gaelic is Gaelic.

Permabear · 21-10-2010 06:08PM

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OhNoYouDidn't · 21-10-2010 06:10PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Learning the language, certainly. The compulsory teaching of Irish has always been motivated from a cultural point of view. The Corinthian once put it very succinctly: Irish is obligatory so as to promote Irish, not for the education of the child.

However, the notion of a shared "Irish culture", if it exists, is far broader than merely the Irish language. In fact the greatest success of Irish academic culture has been in the field of non-Irish literature. Think of all the great writers who have come from Ireland: Oscar Wilde, Johnathon Swift, James Joyce, WB Yeats, Samuel Beckett etc etc.

Also, someone's idea of culture can be individual to themselves. The concept of a very specific homogeneous "Irish culture" that everyone subscribes to is far too general a concept for my liking. Different people prefer different cultural pursuits. I like reading English literature. Some people like playing traditional music. Others like speaking Irish. Fair enough. But the policy of compulsory Irish ignores these distinctions, and basically tells every student that the language is their culture, is something they should praise, even if they disagree.

Some parts of our broad culture - our history, for instance - are relevant to everyone. So the question becomes: what cultural things should we teach?

Drinking Stout?

Thats all very well and good. And I DESPISE the Gah centric faux nationalist bull.

But whats your alternative? Like it or not, there is a broadly accepted culture and historical narrative that the majority subscribe to. If you want to replace what you percieve as a bias, what are you going to replace it with? Your bias?

I accept its more complicated than I am making it, but Irish is the official language of the state, the Gah are considered the national game etc. Would it not be remiss to at least acknowledge that, especially for non national kids? The assumption is a zero sum game, that teaching the accepted Irish culture is somehow pushing out alternative views.

OhNoYouDidn't · 21-10-2010 06:12PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes. The Brits with Shakespeare, the Italians with Latin, Israli kids with ancient Hebrew etc.

donegalfella wrote: »

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And that narrative is generally accepted by the majority. Its a thorny issue, but I ask again, what would you teach in its place?

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, they teach the curriculem....

oscarBravo · 21-10-2010 06:18PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The Brits with Shakespeare...

You're equating Peig to Shakespeare? :eek:

cyclopath2001 · 21-10-2010 06:20PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But whats your alternative? Like it or not, there is a broadly accepted culture and historical narrative that the majority subscribe to. If you want to replace what you percieve as a bias, what are you going to replace it with? Your bias?

Education needs to cultivate critical faculties so future adults will know propaganda when they see it.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Irish is the official language of the state

That's certainly what the Irish-lobby would like everyone to believe, but Irish is a national language of the state, the other national language being English.

mikemac · 21-10-2010 06:25PM

I played Harty Cup hurling :cool:
I was fairly useless now, but it was great. Everyone was involved, banners around the place and buses hired to bring everyone to games.

In our CBS, it was hurling or gaelic football only as team sports.
Soccer was banned though we'd kick around after school or so. And I do mean banned, you'd couldn't play it anywhere on school premises.

They brought in rugby in my last year

Oh yeah, we played rounders too, the forgotten sport of the GAA!

Liam Byrne · 21-10-2010 06:25PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I'm from Dublin. Football is football. Gaelic is Gaelic.

You're still from Ireland.

In Australia, "football" means "Aussie Rules"
In America, "football" means "American Football"

So basically, unless you specify the prefix, people will rightly assume the national version.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 21-10-2010 06:30PM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Really? Do you mind me asking where you are based?

If so, its a bit surreal that the most played game, by a mile, in the land isn't even offered to the older kids.

You mean soccer right?

If not that is my mistake sorry. I'll PM you were I'm based.:)

Iwasfrozen · 21-10-2010 06:35PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You're still from Ireland.

In Australia, "football" means "Aussie Rules"
In America, "football" means "American Football"

So basically, unless you specify the prefix, people will rightly assume the national version.

Not true.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 21-10-2010 06:37PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You're still from Ireland.

In Australia, "football" means "Aussie Rules"
In America, "football" means "American Football"

So basically, unless you specify the prefix, people will rightly assume the national version.

Everyone I know refers to Gaelic football as "Gah"

Hurling as hurling

and Association football as "football"

deise go deo · 21-10-2010 06:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not true.

Care to elaborate,

It depends where you are really, If you are down in the kingdom and say 'I like Football' its unlikely they will be thinking of old traford. If you are in Dublin its likely to be mixed. That is why I would say soccer, Avoids confusion.;)

Permabear · 21-10-2010 06:42PM

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jimmycrackcorm · 21-10-2010 06:44PM

Peig is the reason we Irish don't go rioting like the French and the Greeks. Sure it's been ingrained into us that we should naturally be as miserable as her.

mikemac · 21-10-2010 06:44PM

I can see where this thread is going
The definition of football is debated every month over in GAA forum

I'm sure there are people who think of the cricket ground when you say Old Trafford, well it was there 49 years before the stadium in Manchester

deise go deo · 21-10-2010 06:59PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sexist.:P

That a narrative is accepted by the majority is not sufficient rationale for teaching it in schools as established fact. The Biblical creation narrative would be just one example.

Irish exists and most people want it preserved and promoted, If not in schools then how?

deise go deo · 21-10-2010 07:00PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

I can see where this thread is going
The definition of football is debated every month over in GAA forum

I'm sure there are people who think of the cricket ground when you say Old Trafford, well it was there 49 years before the stadium in Manchester

They would be strange people indeed to think cricket grounds if Football is mentioned:pac:

Liam Byrne · 21-10-2010 07:02PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not true.

Well forgive me if I reject the "forced culture" of someone refusing to abide by established naming conventions all around the world.

Hurling is Hurling
Football is (Gaelic) Football
Soccer is Soccer
Rugby is Rugby (Football)

I guess it works both ways when some people want to impose their belief structure on others who disagree.

But I'm sticking with established conventions worldwide.

oscarBravo · 21-10-2010 07:03PM

This thread is heading rapidly towards locksville.

deise go deo · 21-10-2010 07:07PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

This thread is heading rapidly towards locksville.

Cen Fáth?

The OP isent particularly abusive although I disagree with it. I dont think anyone is breaking any rules.

cyclopath2001 · 21-10-2010 07:27PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Irish exists and most people want it preserved and promoted, If not in schools then how?

Leaving aside your debatable assertion (based one one survey of 1000 people, and sponsored by the Irish language industry) and what it actually means in terms of financial commitment, the best answer would be :

"In the home, and at the expense of those who want to speak it."

deise go deo · 21-10-2010 07:41PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Leaving aside your debatable assertion (based one one survey of 1000 people, and sponsored by the Irish language industry) and what it actually means in terms of financial commitment, the best answer would be :

"In the home, and at the expense of those who want to speak it."

I claim people support Irish and provide evidence, You claim otherwise and attack my evidence, Where is your evidence?

So people should not be supported by the state in their education?
Should not all learning be done in the home and at peoples own expense then? Why Force people to go to school if they dont want to, Why Force English poetry and plays on people with no interest in it? Is there any legitimate reason for this to be shoved down peoples throats? Surely it should be optional for those who want it, At their own expense of course.

Perhaps if people want to learn Irish and are being taxed for an education system then Irish should be in the education system?

Forced Culture

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