GOD

K-9 · 20-10-2010 03:31PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Can you please point me to the one authority making decisions for the whole of the human race? I'd be very interested.

As it is, I've got about as much say about the emergence response in LA as I had about the one in Haiti, and in all fairness neither is my business.
I've given money for the victims in Haiti, just as I've given money for the victims of Hurricane Catherina. But both the US and Haiti are independent countries of which I'm not a citizen, so I can't influence the decisions of their respective governments.

Free Will, exactly.

We have the UN, the G20, EU, NAFTA, World Trade talks. If the will was there it could be done but it suits us to wash our hands of it. Sure aren't we going through a recession. It's like the argument against foreign aid, "look after our own first". Nationalism IMO has is responsible for more needless deaths than religion.

Snakeblood wrote: »

That would make sense if you thought that humanity always had the chance to protect itself against whatever disaster came along, like the black plague for example. There's literally nothing anyone at the time could have done to save anyone else, it was pure luck.

Yep. Suited the King in his palace to think that too.

We do have the means now, but don't choose to use it.

Shenshen · 20-10-2010 03:33PM

K-9 wrote: »

Free Will, exactly.

We have the UN, the G20, EU, NAFTA, World Trade talks. If the will was there it could be done but it suits us to wash our hands of it. Sure aren't we going through a recession. It's like the argument against foreign aid, "look after our own first". Nationalism IMO has is responsible for more needless deaths than religion.

Yep. Suited the King in his palace to think that too.

We do have the means now, but don't choose to use it.

So you propose to force all countries the world over to adopt the same security measures and laws the first world countries have in place?

dylano_k · 20-10-2010 03:39PM

It's the Flying Spaghetti Monster for me

Snakeblood · 20-10-2010 03:44PM

K-9 wrote: »

Yep. Suited the King in his palace to think that too.

We do have the means now, but don't choose to use it.

I don't know what you mean. The king in his palace couldn't have done anything either. I'm saying:

You have previously said that 'The Human Race decides on these things. We make decisions that it is fine that LA is well protected from earthquakes and don't make it our business that Haiti is well prepared. Its the "I'm alright Jack mentality" except at an international level.'

What could the Human Race have done about the Black Plague?

Nevyn · 20-10-2010 03:47PM

tbh wrote: »

I visited Auschwitz at the weekend. I can assure you, there is no God.

Nah JVH exists he is just a sick and sadistic bastard as far as I am concerned.

K-9 · 20-10-2010 04:20PM

Shenshen wrote: »

So you propose to force all countries the world over to adopt the same security measures and laws the first world countries have in place?

No, there are inequalities in the world and it suits the first world to play lip service to it.

Man made catastrophes happen throughout the world and we do nothing about it and just blame them. Its a bit stupid blaming people from Haiti when they have about as much power as the Jews in the concentration camp.

Snakeblood wrote: »

I don't know what you mean. The king in his palace couldn't have done anything either. I'm saying:

You have previously said that 'The Human Race decides on these things. We make decisions that it is fine that LA is well protected from earthquakes and don't make it our business that Haiti is well prepared. Its the "I'm alright Jack mentality" except at an international level.'

What could the Human Race have done about the Black Plague?

Not much but we've advanced to a stage were we can do something about Third World poverty, eg. World Trade talks but prefer to protect our affluence first.

So sorry, blaming God for it doesn't wash for me!

Snakeblood · 20-10-2010 04:22PM

K-9 wrote: »

Not much but we've advanced to a stage were we can do something about Third World poverty, eg. World Trade talks but prefer to protect our affluence first.

So sorry, blaming God for it doesn't wash for me!

So the plague was god's fault?

K-9 · 20-10-2010 04:26PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

So the plague was god's fault?

How so? Where the floods last year?

Snakeblood · 20-10-2010 04:32PM

K-9 wrote: »

How so? Where the floods last year?

To trawl back over the conversation, you started off by suggesting that maybe the disasters were god's way to see how man would react. :
'yeah, why not? Why not throw an earthquake, or some plague or a flood or something - I mean, it's not like he never did it before, right?
K-9=' Maybe to see humanities reaction? '

You then said 'Man is not doing anything about the famine, we could save everyone'

I said 'Well, what about a disaster man couldn't do anything about (like the black plague)'. which would mean that your idle thought of it being god's way of testing us was bollocks, unless he was just throwing a few diseases around for the **** of it before.

I couldn't really give two tugs of a dead dog's cock, I'm just pointing out that your initial observation that it could be god's way of seeing which way man jumps would make God either a) wildly inconsistent or b) wilfully cruel or c) both.

Gerry Asstrix · 20-10-2010 04:34PM

Weird as it sounds I dont believe in God or anything supernatural or spiritual but I still think Christian values when practised right are a good thing

ItsAWindUp · 20-10-2010 04:35PM

mikerowsopht wrote: »

How Can ANYONE still believe this crap these days.

What's the difference between God, Jesus Christ, Santa, Easter Bunny & the Tooth Fairy - they are all fairy tales

Can I have a religious fanatic explain how to why they believe as I simply can't fanthom this at all.

Do you think with our generation having more brains than the last that the church will still be here in say 100 - 200 yrs times within Europe of course.

Less & less people go to church every year apparently and I know of no one from my age / generation that goes to church

I respect the fact that people believe this and am not interfering but just need somone to explain it to me why or how they believe

No, you don't.

Snakeblood · 20-10-2010 04:38PM

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

Weird as it sounds I dont believe in God or anything supernatural or spiritual but I still think Christian values when practised right are a good thing

A lot of them are. I always believed the bible was largely a guide to building a successful religion. In order to have a successful religion, you need to have a lot of people so it encourages population growth (NO GAYS, GO FORTH MULTIPLY). You need society so it encourages laws (thou shalt not kill) and has rules on how to live within a social group (no coveting wives or oxen).

You need to keep the religion going and not let anyone destroy it, so you shall have no god but me.

A lot of it is bollocks and actively harmful though.

Call Me Jimmy · 20-10-2010 04:43PM

If David Attenborough's next series was about humans, we'd see just how little 'free will' we have. I think it would convince a lot of people that we are 100% at the mercy of our bodies and by extension, our minds.

If you forget yourself and look at humans from the same abstract perspective as you do 'nature'; when you look at the world around you, you would never admit it but you know of nothing higher than the extremities of your brain, and thus feel like you are the god.

imo

Gerry Asstrix · 20-10-2010 04:45PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

A lot of them are. I always believed the bible was largely a guide to building a successful religion. In order to have a successful religion, you need to have a lot of people so it encourages population growth (NO GAYS, GO FORTH MULTIPLY). You need society so it encourages laws (thou shalt not kill) and has rules on how to live within a social group (no coveting wives or oxen).

You need to keep the religion going and not let anyone destroy it, so you shall have no god but me.

A lot of it is bollocks and actively harmful though.

Your going into specifics there, Im not interested in specifics as Im not a believer in God or the supernatural/spiritual, I just think the basic values promoted by Christianity are a good thing, the likes of love your family and neighbours, look after the sick, weak and poor, be a god person in general, nothing bad there really!

I find if you want to be religious just do your best be a good person and what that entails, but I find being utterly devoted to some form of organised religion is actually harmful to society ie: cults and fundementalist Islam

Snakeblood · 20-10-2010 04:54PM

Gerry Asstrix wrote: »

Your going into specifics there, Im not interested in specifics as Im not a believer in God or the supernatural/spiritual, I just think the basic values promoted by Christianity are a good thing, the likes of love your family and neighbours, look after the sick, weak and poor, be a god person in general, nothing bad there really!

I find if you want to be religious just do your best be a good person and what that entails, but I find being utterly devoted to some form of organised religion is actually harmful to society ie: cults and fundementalist Islam

The basic values promoted by most mainstream religions are good things. It's only when you get into the nitty gritty 'Gays aren't equal' 'Women aren't equal' etc. that religion runs into problems, sadly.

And the only difference between a cult and a religon is popularity.

K-9 · 20-10-2010 05:01PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

To trawl back over the conversation, you started off by suggesting that maybe the disasters were god's way to see how man would react. :
'yeah, why not? Why not throw an earthquake, or some plague or a flood or something - I mean, it's not like he never did it before, right?
K-9=' Maybe to see humanities reaction? '

You then said 'Man is not doing anything about the famine, we could save everyone'

I said 'Well, what about a disaster man couldn't do anything about (like the black plague)'. which would mean that your idle thought of it being god's way of testing us was bollocks, unless he was just throwing a few diseases around for the **** of it before.

I couldn't really give two tugs of a dead dog's cock, I'm just pointing out that your initial observation that it could be god's way of seeing which way man jumps would make God either a) wildly inconsistent or b) wilfully cruel or c) both.

Funny enough, I don't really give a b******s about the God stuff either, I got in at the free will stuff!

Black Plague, fair enough. The Irish Famine?

philologos · 20-10-2010 05:35PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yeah, humanity. your onmipotent and all loving god just chose to let innocent children be gased to death like animals. please explain why if you can thanks.

tbh wrote: »

God doesn't seem to do a lot, does he?
I take it tho, that when good things happen, that *is* god yeah?

Personally, I can see a good reason why God didn't intervene or doesn't intervene in a lot of cases. Personally, I think it was because God thought it best that we learned from our mistakes post-Holocaust, rather than stepping in at every opportunity. We are accountable for what we do, and God isn't under any obligation to clean up our mess, particularly when we aren't really interested in Him having any role, and if we are not interested in following His decrees.

God doesn't owe us anything. I would hold personally, that God spoke through people such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer during that time and the Confessing Church movement which stood up to Hitler.

I guess as someone who believes that God knows all permutations, and possible results from all actions, that I can be assured that God made the right decision. No human could, can or will be able to do a better job than God at anything. I would see the Holocaust as evidence that we cannot trust humanity on our own, but that we need to find higher purpose in this existence.

SuperInfinity · 20-10-2010 05:43PM

OP, ask yourself, why do you even care what other people believe? Only people with a very low self-esteem and sense of self-worth would feel the need to bash people with such beliefs.

Yeah, I don't believe in god either. There is lots of bullcrap nonsense in the world I don't believe in.

If you really think it's so amazing that people believe in god, then you clearly haven't worked out all the other incredibly stupid beliefs people have and things they do.

gbee · 20-10-2010 10:48PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

The basic values promoted by most mainstream religions are good things. It's only when you get into the nitty gritty 'Gays aren't equal' 'Women aren't equal' etc. that religion runs into problems, sadly..

It's a man's club, it always was, the nitty gritty is an assassin who kills two popes [under orders] and is a bishop in Ireland

. And would have been pope today, only for his 'open' homosexuality got him demoted to Bishop of C..... OH and recently stepped aside because he followed Ratze's instructions to protect paedophile priests in his diocese.

Now, that's a dedicated man and I admire him, today in 2010.

The RCC was founded by Romans as a paedophile club, they never changed, 'suffer little children' ..........

the_syco · 20-10-2010 11:11PM

mikerowsopht wrote: »

What's the difference between God, Jesus Christ, Santa, Easter Bunny & the Tooth Fairy - they are all fairy tales

Ah. Weak religions. Thor will come back on his chariot of nuclear fire, and banish you to a fiery inferno, and then you'll see his true might.

mikerowsopht wrote: »

Less & less people go to church every year apparently and I know of no one from my age / generation that goes to church

Actually, recession makes more people goto church. When they don't have all their material wealth, they go back to whatever faith they believe in, or join a new one.

Shenshen · 21-10-2010 08:08AM

K-9 wrote: »

No, there are inequalities in the world and it suits the first world to play lip service to it.

Man made catastrophes happen throughout the world and we do nothing about it and just blame them. Its a bit stupid blaming people from Haiti when they have about as much power as the Jews in the concentration camp.

Ok, just what exactly are you talking about here?

Was it the first world's fault that Haiti's government did not have an emergency response in place, and that the buildings in its capital weren't as earthquake-proof as some buildings elsewhere?

I'm not blaming the people of Haiti for living on top of a fault line, lots of people do. But just you can't expect your neighbours to regularly pop round and make sure your fire alarms are operational, and your house is structurally sound, you can't really expect any other country to have made such preparations for Haiti?

Shenshen · 21-10-2010 08:26AM

Jakkass wrote: »

I guess as someone who believes that God knows all permutations, and possible results from all actions, that I can be assured that God made the right decision. No human could, can or will be able to do a better job than God at anything. I would see the Holocaust as evidence that we cannot trust humanity on our own, but that we need to find higher purpose in this existence.

That's the bit I dread... people looking for a higher purpose.
And to me personally, it doesn't make any difference if it's the Inquisition ridding the world of evil for the higher purpose of pleasing god, or the Nazis' genocide of the Jews while striving for the higher purpose of racial purity, or even Stalin's purges for the higher purpose of communism.

When looking for a higher purpose, the individual and his or her sufferings ceases to matter.

philologos · 21-10-2010 09:09AM

Shenshen wrote: »

That's the bit I dread... people looking for a higher purpose.
And to me personally, it doesn't make any difference if it's the Inquisition ridding the world of evil for the higher purpose of pleasing god, or the Nazis' genocide of the Jews while striving for the higher purpose of racial purity, or even Stalin's purges for the higher purpose of communism.

Personally, I would say the Inquisition was much more to do with power than God, likewise with the Crusades. You can come back to me for more detail as to why I think this if you want.

Shenshen wrote: »

When looking for a higher purpose, the individual and his or her sufferings ceases to matter.

This is what I cannot understand. Through reading God's word, I find that He values humans to the core. We are his splendour, and He cares about us so much that He has given us guidelines about how best to live. Indeed, even when we failed to meet these guidelines He gave us His mercy. Indeed, even again, not only did He give us His mercy, but He sent Jesus down once and for all to satisfy the due punishment for our sin.

Personally, I think Christianity promotes a humanism far better than any secular version of it.

Snakeblood · 21-10-2010 09:13AM

K-9 wrote: »

Funny enough, I don't really give a b******s about the God stuff either, I got in at the free will stuff!

Black Plague, fair enough. The Irish Famine?

Well, the point would really be that if one disaster is out of man's hands, then it can't really be to see how man might club together.

Many modern disasters are absolutely soluble by man, or preventable.

Shenshen · 21-10-2010 09:15AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Personally, I would say the Inquisition was much more to do with power than God, likewise with the Crusades. You can come back to me for more detail as to why I think this if you want.

I never said it had to do with god, I said it had to do with a higher purpose.

This is what I cannot understand. Through reading God's word, I find that He values humans to the core. We are his splendour, and He cares about us so much that He has given us guidelines about how best to live. Indeed, even when we failed to meet these guidelines He gave us His mercy. Indeed, even again, not only did He give us His mercy, but He sent Jesus down once and for all to satisfy the due punishment for our sin.

I've read it, and it was what made me stop considering god as something(or someone) that is worthy of worship, and more of a spoiled cruel child.

Personally, I think Christianity promotes a humanism far better than any secular version of it.

Comparing numbers, more people died in the name of Christianity than in the name of humanism. But then, Christianity had a 1500 years head start, so I guess it's a bit early to make judgements yet.

philologos · 21-10-2010 09:20AM

Shenshen wrote: »

I've read it, and it was what made me stop considering god as something(or someone) that is worthy of worship, and more of a spoiled cruel child.

That's your call, we've clearly come to very different conclusions.

Shenshen wrote: »

Comparing numbers, more people died in the name of Christianity than in the name of secular humanism. But then, Christianity had a 1500 years head start, so I guess it's a bit early to make judgements yet.

FYP.

This only depends on who selectively you define as "humanists", indeed or how broadly you define Christians. People do bad things, it does not mean that these people are adequately following Christianity which does not promote such things. Therefore it is fallacious to say such things which are contrary to Christianity represent it at all.

My point is the Christian message, promotes a stronger humanism than any secular form of it.

Shenshen · 21-10-2010 09:23AM

Jakkass wrote: »

My point is the Christian message, promotes a stronger humanism than any secular form of it.

Which Christian message?

I find that differs quite substantially from Christian to Christian, so which one exactly are you talking about?

thebigbiffo · 21-10-2010 10:07AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Personally, I would say the Inquisition was much more to do with power than God, likewise with the Crusades.

This is what I cannot understand. Through reading God's word, I find that He values humans to the core. We are his splendour, and He cares about us so much that He has given us guidelines about how best to live. .

Jakkass wrote: »

Personally, I can see a good reason why God didn't intervene or doesn't intervene in a lot of cases. Personally, I think it was because God thought it best that we learned from our mistakes post-Holocaust, rather than stepping in at every opportunity. We are accountable for what we do, and God isn't under any obligation to clean up our mess, particularly when we aren't really interested in Him having any role, and if we are not interested in following His decrees.

right just so we're clear god values us humans so much he will allow millions to die in agony for the purposes of teaching us a lesson on being nice to each other. those innocent children and babies died in agony because the nazis didnt follow his guidelines.

i want a timeline for when god got sick of intervening - it's obviously sometime between the dawn of man and when science was advanced enough to explain without refute the s'hite that religions told us was god hand.

the inquisitors were no better than the nazis and gods own representatives on earth presided over the mass murder. who was he teaching a lesson to that time?

jesus i just wish everybody could be agnostic, really, becuase the blind faith that jakkass shows is just plain weird.

Guill · 21-10-2010 10:08AM

Probably the Christian message where, the all forgiving god will make you burn in hell for being Gay.

philologos · 21-10-2010 10:28AM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

right just so we're clear god values us humans so much he will allow millions to die in agony for the purposes of teaching us a lesson on being nice to each other. those innocent children and babies died in agony because the nazis didnt follow his guidelines.

God sometimes has to let humans make their own mistakes, so that they might actually begin to realise that they cannot put themselves on the top of the pile. Given the huge advancements in UN Human Rights legislation amongst other things, I actually believe that He was right.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i want a timeline for when god got sick of intervening - it's obviously sometime between the dawn of man and when science was advanced enough to explain without refute the s'hite that religions told us was god hand.

It's not about when God "got sick" of it, it's about whether or not God decides it is appropriate in all cases to intervene. If God intervened in every case, it would severely compromise our free will.

Again, I know the whole "religion is ****e" makes you feel superior and all of this, but there are numerous explanations to about 90% of the objections I've heard on boards. I leave 10% aside because I feel the approach that I and other Christians on boards may have given inadequate answers. I don't claim to be an expert, but sometimes when you here the same old junk come up here every week you kind of have to respond to it.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

the inquisitors were no better than the nazis and gods own representatives on earth presided over the mass murder. who was he teaching a lesson to that time?

I think the Inquisition was wrong. Indeed many Christians died during the Inquisition. All about the RCC retaining its power in Europe. Likewise with the Crusades.

Luckily, I don't put my trust in human institutions which are wholly fallible, I put my trust in God who goes beyond mere human institutions.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

jesus i just wish everybody could be agnostic, really, becuase the blind faith that jakkass shows is just plain weird.

There's nothing blind about it. Admittedly, I was an agnostic for quite a few years. I'm glad that through God's grace He helped me to see the truth. I must have spent hours thinking about all this stuff over the last few years, hardly blind.

GOD

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