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National Student March 3rd November + General Fees related discussions

124

Comments

  • #92
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Anyway, SWP have no aims to come to power so don't be worrying about it.

    Not had a chance to look at the other stuff yet. Will do and post then. But with this comment...what political party does not want to be in power?


  • #93
    Wendero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭Wendero


    On a side note, anyone who wants to nationalize oil and gas is an idiot. It has never worked, will never work. It's socialism - the world's most failed political system. You need to understand that you cannot just take the profits - profits exist because they are not confiscated by the government.

    If they were, no-one would produce anything, the economy would collapse (and now I'm talking about the kind of collapse that would bring Ireland to Africa's level) and no profits would be made for anyone.

    As for the fees, as long as they are not enforced on students who are already in college, I'm more or less fine with it. I don't like them for a fact, but with a deficit like Ireland's, you just might have to accept it.

    Another idea that I have is to cut down on inefficient programs like majors in history, english etc. These programs will never get you a job, and so the government will have to first pay for your education, and then pay your unemployment benefits. If you really want to major in english, fine, but then maybe you could pay for it yourself.

    /John


  • #94
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,442 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    Wendero wrote: »
    On a side note, anyone who wants to nationalize oil and gas is an idiot. It has never worked, will never work. It's socialism - the world's most failed political system. You need to understand that you cannot just take the profits - profits exist because they are not confiscated by the government.

    If they were, no-one would produce anything, the economy would collapse (and now I'm talking about the kind of collapse that would bring Ireland to Africa's level) and no profits would be made for anyone.

    As for the fees, as long as they are not enforced on students who are already in college, I'm more or less fine with it. I don't like them for a fact, but with a deficit like Ireland's, you just might have to accept it.

    Another idea that I have is to cut down on inefficient programs like majors in history, english etc. These programs will never get you a job, and so the government will have to first pay for your education, and then pay your unemployment benefits. If you really want to major in english, fine, but then maybe you could pay for it yourself.

    /John

    So you're saying only some degrees should be considered worthwhile?
    Well that's hardly fair, what about the people who get into teaching from those subjects or become archivists and researchers. They are needed in society as well. You can't just decide that one degree is better than another


  • #95
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    Not had a chance to look at the other stuff yet. Will do and post then. But with this comment...what political party does not want to be in power?

    I'm not being smart but socialists don't believe in a parliamentary democracy. We believe in a democracy where everyone has a say.


  • #96
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Oh wow. Just read the document.

    I'm not going to comment further than what I've said previously in this topic. Still. Wow...


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  • #97
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Wendero wrote: »
    On a side note, anyone who wants to nationalize oil and gas is an idiot. It has never worked, will never work. It's socialism - the world's most failed political system. You need to understand that you cannot just take the profits - profits exist because they are not confiscated by the government.



    /John

    Hmmm, it seems to work in Norway pretty well but if you insist. Also, I am a socialist. Who gets those profits? You, me, the working class? Nope, the elite do.

    As for your comment on degrees, I'm not even tempted to reply to be honest, I'll only get annoyed.


  • #98
    Riamfada
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    So you're saying only some degrees should be considered worthwhile?
    Well that's hardly fair, what about the people who get into teaching from those subjects or become archivists and researchers. They are needed in society as well. You can't just decide that one degree is better than another

    You can based on the economic return from the qualification given. The government dont put everyone through college because they are really nice people, they put people through college because at the end we will have a highly educated workforce that will attract investment and eventually make its money back.

    Unfortunately subjects like art history, archaeology, english have little to no return on the investment put into it and the majority of graduates end up on the dole or not involved in work which has anything to do with the 15,000 it cost the tax payer for little Johnnie to study Nietzsche.

    No on is saying one degree is better than another, people are saying that one degree has more of an economic return than the other, which is true.

    Having recently graduated with a masters in arts I think students should be learning to stand on their own two feet. I paid full fees to do my arts degree because I wanted to study arts, not because I wanted to "experience college life" , "grow in university", "party for three years".

    Students imho are greedy. For example the USI are constantly putting out press releases that they want to keep free fees and that its the government's fault that there is a huge rate of unemployed graduates. It is because of free fees that there is a huge rate of unemplotyed graduates, from all levels of socio-economic backgrounds by the way. All free fees does at this stage of economic development is churn out highly educated social welfare reciepients and is a drain on the education budget.

    /g


  • #99
    Vamp369
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 144 ✭✭Vamp369


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    I'm not being smart but socialists don't believe in a parliamentary democracy. We believe in a democracy where everyone has a say.

    Everyone already does have a say, just not everyone is listened too, and some people should not be listened to.


  • #100
    Riamfada
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Hmmm, it seems to work in Norway pretty well but if you insist. Also, I am a socialist. Who gets those profits? You, me, the working class? Nope, the elite do.

    As for your comment on degrees, I'm not even tempted to reply to be honest, I'll only get annoyed.

    You have heard of coproration tax? Income tax? How exactly do we mine our natural resources, set up a massive state mining agency? Thats whatoil companies are for. It works in Norway because its been planned that way from the beginning, the Irish system was modeled on the same prinicpal until the rainbow government fell and plans for a national agency to deal with natural resources were abandoned. Further mismanagement lead to a situation where if we try to retract our legal obligations on say ..the corrib oil project we will be taken to the cleaners for billions.

    No offence but you linked to a farcical document which only goes to prove socialists are the butt end of a joke considering most of them are middle class kids whos daddy own a few buy to let houses inthe burbs. It also highlights your limited knowledge of macro economics and illustrates why no one takes students seriously.


  • #101
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,442 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    Grimes wrote: »
    Students imho are greedy. For example the USI are constantly putting out press releases that they want to keep free fees and that its the government's fault that there is a huge rate of unemployed graduates. It is because of free fees that there is a huge rate of unemplotyed graduates, from all levels of socio-economic backgrounds by the way. All free fees does at this stage of economic development is churn out highly educated social welfare reciepients and is a drain on the education budget.

    /g

    This I completely agree with but i wouldn't limit it to just students. The Irish population in general are greedy. No one will accept that cuts are necessary in their sector. They believe that everyone else can suffer, just not themselves.

    As I said earlier I am all for full fees as long a proper system to manage these is also set up.

    And I understand what you mean by degrees being economically different. i was looking at it more from a direct face value view that you can't discriminate by the degree a person has if you get me


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  • #102
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,907 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    You'se can forget the pot of gold notion of oil/gas reserves lads.

    This post sums it up.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68583753&postcount=27


  • #103
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,988 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Everyone already does have a say, just not everyone is listened too, and some people should not be listened to.

    That. And...
    This I completely agree with but i wouldn't limit it to just students. The Irish population in general are greedy. No one will accept that cuts are necessary in their sector. They believe that everyone else can suffer, just not themselves.

    As I said earlier I am all for full fees as long a proper system to manage these is also set up.

    That. Two excellent posts.

    The idea of having a society where everyone "has a voice" is fundamentally flawed since not everyone knows how to run a country. If you want medical advice, you don't go to a crowd of people and ask them to come to a conclusion on the best form of treatment for you. You go to professionals who know what they are doing. Likewise, if you want people to run a country, you shouldn't assign that responsibility to people who know nothing about running a country. You should pick the very best and brightest from various fields.

    Granted, that's not exactly how democracy is working out in Ireland at the moment, but then that's why I think people need to cop on and start trying to insist on better people to run the country. That's what protests such as these should be about; voicing our annoyance with the people running the country rather than trying to propose extreme measures which are, in the long term, unrealistic.

    As for the greedy thing, I have no problem with fees going up provided a proper system is put in place. I'd imagine this sort of system would appease a socialist; there's already a grant system in place whereby people are judged on means testing. Why not continue in a way whereby people who come from families who have a low income recieve free fees, while those over it can pay. This way, we can cut out those who are simply using the possibility of the poor being put off college as an excuse to cover their own asses from those who genuinely want to ensure a fair system.

    As for the English degree thing, I've been trying desperatly to think of an arguement against the supposed inadequecy of them...but then I realise I'm an unemployed English graduate with no job prospects in sight...


  • #104
    Wendero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭Wendero


    Statoil - which used to be owned by the norwegian state - has been sold out. I'm from Sweden, I know more about scandinavian economy than any of you. I grew up in a socialist state!

    A simple guide to the failures of socialism is found on my blog in this post:
    http://rightosphere.com/blog.php?user=JohnG&blogentry_id=5718

    You socialists today are as smart as the hippies were. And that's not a compliment.


  • #105
    Wendero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭Wendero


    And as Grimes said, certain degrees are more valuable. It's a fact. The government is paying for your education for a reason; they think the investment has a net present value. If you were doing economics you'd understand that term.

    Even if you were to shut down every history program in the country for 10 years, you'd still have enough historians. That's how bad the labor market is for them. Same goes for english majors. I'm not suggesting they be completely shut down, I'm just saying only those with maybe +500 points should be allowed to study english or history for free, since they are so smart we can expect them to get a job. If you got less than that, but you insist on studying history, you pay for yourself.


  • #106
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    I've attached the SWP's alternative economic agenda.

    Bit of a mad agenda ;)

    I am curious how someone from Leixlip can be in the SWP, I mean, if those guys had their way, you would not have Intel or HP in Leixlip, then your town would pretty much die. Socialism is all well and good, but they get you no jobs and spend everyone else's money. Your town is pretty much the stereotypes of globablisation, multinationals and capitalism, yet you would be in a party which would, in effect, get rid of that and leave, no doubt, many of your friends and family jobless.

    SWP alternative economic agenda is as sane and credible as Zimbabwe's economic agenda


  • #107
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Oh sweet jesus, I came on here to respond to the sensible arguments and now you're telling me because I'm from Leixlip my town will die. First of all I live in Maynooth. Second of all I don't know a soul from Leixlip who works in Intel or HP. They didn't build the schools in my parish, they don't own the houses on my parent's estate, they're two MNCs on the outskirts of the town. They don't bring business to Leixlip, a large number of small businesses go bust in Leixlip every year anyway. Don't pretend to know something about a town you don't know. I wouldn't come on here and tell you about your own locality and what it relies on for survival. Fine, you disagree with me, I've no issue with that but it's not silly season, think before you post.

    Anyway, you said you know nothing about economics and it's clear you're being swayed by the "you can't do that because of x,y and z" arguments that everyone has thrown out as a response to my post. So I'm not going to comment on the Zimbabwe comment either.

    As for Wendero saying he grew up in a socialist state, social democratic state is what you grew up in. I don't recall any revolutions in Scandanavia recently. Anyway, this thread was meant to be about the march and this discussion on my politics is dominating it. My fault of course but I'm going to back off for the moment. I'll be back :cool:


  • #108
    Wendero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭Wendero


    Yes, you Irish have capitalism to thank for everything. Before capitalism, you were "Europe's basketcase" (as I believe The Economist called you). If you hadn't overconsumed during the boom, you wouldn't be here right now. Sweden ran budget surpluses during the boom, and therefore our economy is doing well under the circumstances. No NAMA, no nationalisation, no tax hikes (actually, we're cutting taxes every year now).

    This is your own fault. Now take this cold shower and learn from it.

    /John


  • #109
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Also, USI have launched a website containing some facts and figures. Check it out here.


  • #110
    funky penguin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    Wendero wrote: »
    Yes, you Irish have capitalism to thank for everything. Before capitalism, you were "Europe's basketcase" (as I believe The Economist called you). If you hadn't overconsumed during the boom, you wouldn't be here right now. Sweden ran budget surpluses during the boom, and therefore our economy is doing well under the circumstances. No NAMA, no nationalisation, no tax hikes (actually, we're cutting taxes every year now).

    This is your own fault. Now take this cold shower and learn from it.

    /John

    Don't go down this road. Back on topic. Grants, fees and Student march.

    NOBODY reply to this.


  • #111
    Flaimer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭Flaimer


    Limerick Institute of Technology is comin with you guys! :cool:


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  • #112
    banquo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,487 ✭✭✭banquo


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Also, USI have launched a website containing some facts and figures. Check it out here.

    Step 1: Click link.
    Step 2: Look at very top right hand corner of page.


  • #113
    squishykins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭squishykins


    We are the future of the Irish nation. We are the taxpayers of tomorrow. And we are marching so that we have the opportunity to make a better life for ourselves

    TAX THE OLD PEOPLE! *ahem* sorry about that ^^',


  • #114
    funky penguin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    banquo wrote: »
    Step 1: Click link.
    Step 2: Look at very top right hand corner of page.

    And the top left....>_>


  • #115
    Riamfada
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Sure all those cancer patients can take a massive cut on the health service, 600 million I think is what I heard today. As long as you lot get to keep mooching off the state for another 3 years skipping lectures on folklore and history im sure all those sick people in the health service understand your plight.

    Celtic Tiger babies and their sense of entitlement pisses me off.


  • #116
    funky penguin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,352 ✭✭✭funky penguin


    The only thing that annoys me more than moderating politically fuelled threads is when sarcasm is used as a tool for arguing.


  • #117
    Vamp369
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 144 ✭✭Vamp369


    funky penguin wrote: »
    Don't go down this road. Back on topic. Grants, fees and Student march.

    NOBODY reply to this.

    It is a good point that man made that IS ON TOPIC, that we as a nation pissed about when times were good and now the ****s hitting the fan and its time to face up, we all let it happen and now WE ALL have to pay the price, STUDENTS included. Just because you don't like what he said doesn't make it any less true.


  • #118
    Wendero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 490 ✭✭Wendero


    That's just so true Grimes. Spoiled celtic tiger cobs you are, the lot of ye! If you don't take a cut, someone else will. If you really have to march, march for the abolishing of the minimum wage. The minimum wage keeps many students out of work.

    Really, I get the impression less than 5 % of you know even basic economics. You're rebels without a cause, you're just not as good actors as James Dean. You just like being angry for no particular reason and without any kind of sanity. We've all been like that - when we were 13!

    Grow up.


  • #119
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Abolish the minimum wage? Where the hell is your social consciousness? Like all bloody right wing economist types it's all just numbers to you. You couldn't give a rat's arse about people less well off than you. Economics is people not money. Abolish the minimum wage and make it even easier for people on low incomes to be raped by their employers? Madness.


  • #120
    Riamfada
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Abolish the minimum wage? Where the hell is your social consciousness? Like all bloody right wing economist types it's all just numbers to you. You couldn't give a rat's arse about people less well off than you. Economics is people not money. Abolish the working class and make it even easier for people on low incomes to be raped by their employers? Madness.

    Like all lefties you dont seem to have the ability to recognise facetious remarks.
    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Abolish the working class and make it even easier for people on low incomes to be raped by their employers

    Bring in a 70% tax rate to employers so they will close their businesses and thus make all your working classes unemployed? Sure if we all get free fees we wont have to be working class because we will all be highly educated professionals and we can rely on foreign labour to do our unskilled jobs.

    All hail the socialist paradise!


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  • #121
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Grimes I'm not sure how often you read this forum but he's certainly not taking the piss.

    And that should have said abolish the minimum wage, copy and paste error.


This discussion has been closed.
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