Multiculturalism has failed...

bobblepuzzle · 16-10-2010 10:23PM

This type of speak from the German head of state is truely shocking...

Never forget what led the Nazis to power!

Though I think people are forgetting

th3 s1aught3r · 16-10-2010 10:26PM

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

This type of speak from the German head of state is truely shocking...

Never forget what led the Nazis to power!

Though I thing people are forgetting

Do you think Germany might go for the hat trick ?

ScumLord · 16-10-2010 10:26PM

Terry wrote: »

Of course it failed. It always fails.
We're a self centred people by nature, much like every other animal/mammal on the planet.

I don't know, I've seen people of all races, cultures and religions blend well together when they met as equals on a level playing field, it happens on a regular basis all over the world.
People can have their own culture and love it while still enjoying other cultures. The problem here is too many came too quick. I don't think the last 10-20 years are a bad reflection on any particular group other than those that encouraged and allowed such an upheaval to happen without considering the consequences.

Nodin · 16-10-2010 10:26PM

gbee wrote: »

I'm going to email a copy to that lowlife.

Against advise to the contrary as it was already beginning to have cracks in other countries, Bertie sold out our beautiful country and whilst the economic holocaust will pass, we have made the ingredients for American style slums, drive by shootings, mega scale drugs that will never fade away.

What total fantasy **** land are you living in, as a matter of interest? We have slums, shootings and fairly large scale drugs. It has sweet **** all to do with immigrants, "multiculturalism" or the Eastern Europe EU accession countries.......

OPENROAD · 16-10-2010 10:27PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know, I've seen people of all races, cultures and religions blend well together when they met as equals on a level playing field, it happens on a regular basis all over the world.
People can have their own culture and love it while still enjoying other cultures. The problem here is too many came too quick. I don't think the last 10-20 years are a bad reflection on any particular group other than those that encouraged and allowed such an upheaval to happen without considering the consequences.

+ 1

I see it in London all the time

southsiderosie · 16-10-2010 10:27PM

One hundred years ago, most Americans would NEVER have guessed that the Irish would have not only integrated, but there would actually be an Irish Catholic President.

The Irish were seen as drunken violent crooked papists, who were little better than apes, and who had the social standing of blacks. And this is despite the fact that they spoke the language.

Yes first generation economic migrants basically stick to their own ethnic communities. And they harp on their second generation kids not to become "too American" or "too whatever country it is". But this does not necessarily hurt their integration in the long run, and with some ethnic groups (Chinese and Cubans for example) it has actually helped move the entire ethnic community up the socio-economic ladder.

Immigration and integration do not always fail. It may get ugly, but it is not destined to fail.

Terry · 16-10-2010 10:28PM

Just read over the last few posts.
Apparently it's wrong to mention the British occupation of Ireland, but criticising the Germans over their actions in WW2 is fine.

Hypocricy is funny.

OPENROAD · 16-10-2010 10:30PM

Going on what people are defining as integration the vast vast majority of immigrants integrate imo

SuperInfinity · 16-10-2010 10:30PM

Multiculturalism was always a big joke.

People should just live in their own goddamn lands, that their ancestors lived in. That's how it should work.

Nodin · 16-10-2010 10:32PM

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Multiculturalism was always a big joke.

People should just live in their own goddamn lands, that their ancestors lived in. That's how it should work.

We're indo-European or something. You think the country should feck off back to the punjab?

southsiderosie · 16-10-2010 10:32PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

I asked a German co-worker about this.
Well coming from a football perspective, I don't exactly bring up multicultural debates in work. I plan to stay out of the HR office

A player Lukas Podolski was born in Poland but plays in Germany.
Something we Irish are well used to with the grandfather/granny rule.

But many Germans would consider Western Poland and the Baltic territory to be German land.
And when Prussia was around, it was.
So they wouldn't accept he is Polish, no that area in Poland was German land in the past, he is German.

And certainly a lot of Germans have no love for 3.5 million Turks (well people of Turkish origin) in their country.

Which is what makes ideas about German citizenship so bizarre: it is all based on blood. You may speak Polish, and your family lived in Poland for generations, but you have more rights to German citizenship than third-generation Turk in Germany. When citizenship is based on blood rather than some kind of shared civic ideal, is it any wonder that immigrants don't feel like they are a part of society, and "natives" reject these immigrants as fellow citizens?

southsiderosie · 16-10-2010 10:35PM

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Multiculturalism was always a big joke.

People should just live in their own goddamn lands, that their ancestors lived in. That's how it should work.

Says the person from the island nation. :rolleyes:

People here seem to be using "multiculturalism" as a euphemism for "immigration". They are not the same thing.

Stained Class · 16-10-2010 10:39PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

+ 1

I see it in London all the time

Really? This is not the London I saw 20 years ago.

I lived in Harlsden NW10. This postcode was mainly on fire.

gurramok · 16-10-2010 10:40PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I'm not seeing the connection here. How are you defining multi-culturalism? And how are skangers attacking foreigners a failure of foreigners to integrate?

Honestly I think a lot of the problems with immigration in Ireland stem from the fact that there are a lot of un-integrated socially isolated Irish people, who then lash out at foreigners as the root of all their problems.

No. There have been too many immigrants(20% of the population at one count) here in such a short time.

How many have integrated? Feck all and you know it. They still speak their own languages. At least the Asians speak English and are the most courteous of the immigrants.

OPENROAD · 16-10-2010 10:43PM

Stained Class wrote: »

Really? This is not the London I saw 20 years ago.

I lived in Harlsden NW10. This postcode was mainly on fire.

Yes really, you are talking about 20 years ago, come on that is a lifetime ago.

Very much so, you will see people of all races working/socialising together.

Just look in the aftermath of 7/7 if you were in London around that time you will understand

gbee · 16-10-2010 10:44PM

Nodin wrote: »

What total fantasy **** land are you living in, as a matter of interest? We have slums, shootings and fairly large scale drugs. It has sweet **** all to do with immigrants, "multiculturalism" or the Eastern Europe EU accession countries.......

I know, but I was not talking about Limerick, we levelled that place with bulldozers. And I did mention 'seeds'

BTW, I don't need to w..., but I can certainly recognise a plant when I hear one. Are you Dan Boyle?

OPENROAD · 16-10-2010 10:45PM

gurramok wrote: »

No. There have been too many immigrants(20% of the population at one count) here in such a short time.

How many have integrated? Feck all and you know it. They still speak their own languages. At least the Asians speak English and are the most courteous of the immigrants.

Besides language, what do you define as integration?

southsiderosie · 16-10-2010 10:46PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't know, I've seen people of all races, cultures and religions blend well together when they met as equals on a level playing field, it happens on a regular basis all over the world.
People can have their own culture and love it while still enjoying other cultures. The problem here is too many came too quick. I don't think the last 10-20 years are a bad reflection on any particular group other than those that encouraged and allowed such an upheaval to happen without considering the consequences.

Stained Class wrote: »

Really? This is not the London I saw 20 years ago.

I lived in Harlsden NW10. This postcode was mainly on fire.

But I think the key point is "equals on a level playing field". Most middle and upper middle class white collar professionals who work with and live near their immigrant counterparts do not see them as a threat to their economic resources (or state benefits). In addition, there is a strong correlation between education status and attitudes towards immigration.

I think a lot of the time there is local conflict when economic migrants move to where the cheap rent is - often in economically deprived areas. Locals see immigrants as "taking our jobs", even if the locals haven't worked a day in their lives. The immigrants see that the locals don't work, and have no respect for them and think they are lazy (I have had this very conversation with a number of Poles in Ireland and African and Mexican immigrants in the US). Tensions get even higher when immigrants are eligible for state benefits, because now natives are in direct competition with immigrants for scarce state resources.

apsalar · 16-10-2010 10:47PM

gurramok wrote: »

No. There have been too many immigrants(20% of the population at one count) here in such a short time.

How many have integrated? Feck all and you know it. They still speak their own languages. At least the Asians speak English and are the most courteous of the immigrants.

Rubbish and you know it.....how many immigrants have YOU personally known? And I don't mean "Hi Marius" in work...I mean invited home for dinner, had their kids over to play?

Intergration is a two-way street. In my own opinion the Asians intergrate the least! And I would say that over and over and not change it. All the countries I've lived in they are the most insular, especially if they hail from the Indian sub-continent and I fully recognise this as a consequence of a very, very restrictive religious/cultural background.

And as far as I know, majority of Africans here speak English. The francophone countries send people to France and Belgium.

The Eastern Europeans can at least read English and ability to speak the language is not indicative of undertsanding of the spoken form.

Is it that you hear foreigners converse in their own languages and that bothers you? I find some Irish people don't like it. And it mystifies me since what else is a person to do? Stop speaking their native tongue?

southsiderosie · 16-10-2010 10:50PM

gurramok wrote: »

No. There have been too many immigrants(20% of the population at one count) here in such a short time.

How many have integrated? Feck all and you know it. They still speak their own languages. At least the Asians speak English and are the most courteous of the immigrants.

Why are Irish people so threatened by people who speak other languages? I could not believe the nasty looks people gave me when I spoke Spanish publicly in Ireland (with Spanish friends). And I'm a native English speaker, FFS.

TBH I don't give a **** what language immigrants speak, how or who they worship, what they want to wear on their heads, whatever. As long as they do not ask for special entitlements, don't expect anyone else to do the crazy **** they want to do, and their crazy **** is legal and doesn't affect me, I DON'T CARE. And I don't get why other people get so worked up about it.

gurramok · 16-10-2010 10:50PM

OPENROAD wrote: »

Besides language, what do you define as integration?

Adapting to Irish culture? Laying down roots here instead of using this country as a temporary base.

If I meet an 18yr old Mustapha or Igor, I expect him to be like any other Irishman who loves their country and not be engaged in loyalty to a foreign country.

OPENROAD · 16-10-2010 10:52PM

gurramok wrote: »

Adapting to Irish culture? Laying down roots here instead of using this country as a temporary base.

If I meet an 18yr old Mustapha or Igor, I expect him to be like any other Irishman who loves their country and not be engaged in loyalty to a foreign country.

OK in that case how can you expect foreigners to adapt when we don't when we go abroad, setting up GAA clubs, drinking Irish pubs etc..........

southsiderosie · 16-10-2010 10:53PM

gurramok wrote: »

Adapting to Irish culture? Laying down roots here instead of using this country as a temporary base.

If I meet an 18yr old Mustapha or Igor, I expect him to be like any other Irishman who loves their country and not be engaged in loyalty to a foreign country.

Well the other half of the population wants them to feck off and go home now that the boom is over.

And I have met plenty of Irish people who do not love their country, so let's not set ridiculous standards for outsiders.

gurramok · 16-10-2010 10:56PM

apsalar wrote: »

The Eastern Europeans can at least read English and ability to speak the language is not indicative of undertsanding of the spoken form.

Is it that you hear foreigners converse in their own languages and that bothers you? I find some Irish people don't like it. And it mystifies me since what else is a person to do? Stop speaking their native tongue?

You said it right there. They speak English to us but still maintain their own language when speaking to their own countrymen which is alien to this country.

They are here to integrate right? Then they should speak the 2 official languages most Irish people understand, Irish and English.

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why are Irish people so threatened by people who speak other languages? I could not believe the nasty looks people gave me when I spoke Spanish publicly in Ireland (with Spanish friends). And I'm a native English speaker, FFS.

TBH I don't give a **** what language immigrants speak, how or who they worship, what they want to wear on their heads, whatever. As long as they do not ask for special entitlements, don't expect anyone else to do the crazy **** they want to do, and their crazy **** is legal and doesn't affect me, I DON'T CARE. And I don't get why other people get so worked up about it.

Why should you speak Spanish in an average Irish persons company? Thats downright ignorance and rightly condemned.

Openroad wrote:

OK in that case how can you expect foreigners to adapt when we don't when we go abroad, setting up GAA clubs, drinking Irish pubs etc..........

How is that this country's problem? We don't have jurisdiction in the UK. And yes, they should have integrated, most Irish have in the past in the UK.

KINGVictor · 16-10-2010 10:57PM

apsalar wrote: »

What you have hhighlighted is what I think the REAL problem with multiculturalism is. I speak as someone who has been an immigrant 3 times so far in life as well as having what I call an inter-cultural background that has continued through adult friendships and family.

It is very, very hard to leave your cultural baggage behind you. I think that most when coming to a new country have an expectation of acceptance, equal opportunities and at at least a reasonable willingness to work as hard as the locals. What I have seen happen and has been a real source of division comes when cultural shock (inevitable) becomes interpreted as racism, xenophobia or just plain "they don't like me". The immigrant begins to seek refuge in familiarity, discards all things strange and different as unpalatable and before you know it, has moved into a neighbourhood of "their own kind" and mental ghettoisation at least, begins to happen.

By no means am I saying this is universal...I speak from my own experiences and would say I have been guilty to some extent of the same and it takes an awful lot of self confidence and friendly understanding from local people to overcome it. I remember being astounded at the cliquiness (sp?) of Irish girls when I was in college. It really depressed me and took a long time to see that it wasn't because I was different, but because I was an "unknown"! A close older friend very dryly explained that had I been from another part of Ireland or, like herself, 20 years older than everyone else, I might very well still experience the same thing!

What I am saying is that yes, I do believe multi-culturalism as a model is a non-starter..but the question then lies in to what extent a person has to assimilate without losing their sense of self? It is very easy to feel as though one's identity is being eroded when the majority is so very different, and especially if we have very little connection with those things that we take for granted as having shaped our understanding of the world. This can be anythng from attitudes to alcohol, food, dress, etc.

I agree the onus is on the immigrant to strike the balance, but it is not an easy one, especially if one's cultural behaviour maybe at significant odds to those of the host nation.

Excellent Post...

If I can summarise your views there, Immigrants come come to their host country with their own identity ( cultural baggage), in some cases, life is not as they dreamt or expected in the country they now reside in, mainly because they have a feeling/experience/inclination that their host country is not as welcoming as desiredor expected, so they feel somewhat victimised ( they posit that this is as a result of some form of racism/xenophobia etc), understandably they take refugee in associating themselves with folks that share their own own cultural identity/preferences etc.

Your theory makes sense and I can honestly relate with it, but in reality it is quite more complex than that. Multiculturalism as a phenomenon seems like a novel idea but the intricacies of the elements of it are usually ignored. I really dont know where you are from and the countries you went to (nothing to do with me ), but it will allow for maybe considering similarities in cultural, socio-political, institutional practices.

When people consider the complexities of multiculturalism, I believe they are considering issues like;
Differences in attitudes regarding women rights, gay rights and religious tolerance. Taking the UK and Ireland as examples, how can an Irish or British person justifiably comprehend the link below for instance:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1320815/Sheikh-Maulana-Abu-Sayeed-UK-sharia-law-leader-says-theres-thing-rape-marriage.html

I am not in any way saying he speaks for the majority of muslims in the UK but he is well respected and despite the fact that he has lived in the UK for years, he doesnt think it is a problem to express views that are incompatible with his host country.

gbee · 16-10-2010 10:57PM

apsalar wrote: »

Intergration is a two-way street.

Rubbish and I KNOW, you know it.

Social integration, in sociology and other social sciences, is the movement of minority groups such as ethnic minorities, refugees and underprivileged sections of a society into the mainstream of societies. Members of the minority groups thus gain full access to the opportunities, rights and services available to the members of the mainstream.

it's up to THEM to change to .....

gurramok · 16-10-2010 10:57PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Well the other half of the population wants them to feck off and go home now that the boom is over.

And I have met plenty of Irish people who do not love their country, so let's not set ridiculous standards for outsiders.

You said in another thread that you were American. Have you integrated?

Terry · 16-10-2010 10:57PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGTr5DYcQmw

storm2811 · 16-10-2010 10:58PM

gurramok wrote: »

Adapting to Irish culture? Laying down roots here instead of using this country as a temporary base.

If I meet an 18yr old Mustapha or Igor, I expect him to be like any other Irishman who loves their country and not be engaged in loyalty to a foreign country.

A lot of them do adapt to Irish culture, I don't know what you're talking about tbh.
Do you want them to only love Ireland and not their home country?
What do you mean by not being engaged in loyalty to a foreign country?

Edit: Just seen this post by you..

Why should you speak Spanish in an average Irish persons company? Thats downright ignorance and rightly condemned.

Really? They were speaking to Spanish friends, so I assume that Spanish is their first language, which they would understand and speak better in.
Why should they speak English simply to meet your needs?

Johro · 16-10-2010 10:59PM

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Multiculturalism was always a big joke.

People should just live in their own goddamn lands, that their ancestors lived in. That's how it should work.

So where ya gonna house all those Irish after they come back to their own 'goddamn land'? Oh don't tell me, they can stay at your house.

Multiculturalism has failed...

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