IM 2011 Rollcall

tunney · 14-10-2010 01:50PM

Gringo78 wrote: »

You'd probably miss more than one quality session when you factor in the travel time, registration previous day etc that occurs with a race. Probably better off spending the race entry fee/travel costs on getting a few rub downs instead after all the IM training?

Or saving the money and spending it on your OH on a nice weekend away during a recovery week before the IM build kicks off. Sometimes money, and time, spent on things unrelated to training can have a bigger impact on your training than if you spent it on something training related.

shotgunmcos · 14-10-2010 01:59PM

Liam Dolan this year did

May 8 HIM
Jun 6 OLY
Jul 4 IM

Sep 11 HIM
Oct 9 IM Kona!

I doubt he did those HIMs for the sake of it. They were both home events too so not too much travelling and fussing about

tunney · 14-10-2010 02:17PM

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Liam Dolan this year did

May 8 HIM
Jun 6 OLY
Jul 4 IM

Sep 11 HIM
Oct 9 IM Kona!

I doubt he did those HIMs for the sake of it. They were both home events too so not too much travelling and fussing about

HAHAHA trying to replicate that monster will get you one place quickly

pgibbo · 14-10-2010 02:23PM

tunney wrote: »

HAHAHA trying to replicate that monster will get you one place quickly

LOL....I mentioned Liam's name and how he did in Kona to a lad that raced against him a few times. He was very complimentary but what really stood out was "I have never known anyone to endure pain as much as Liam. He's an animal" :cool:

shotgunmcos · 14-10-2010 02:23PM

By all accounts the swim in Kenmare this year would have been a good IM simulation!

Seriously though, he had 4 weeks to peak for Kona. Why did he do HIMs before IMs?

You could say at his level he recovers faster, but then he races harder too.

Izoard, how did you find doing Sperrin logistically? How was the recovery afterwards?

Tunney, do you just train your way up to IM then or do you factor in any racing along the way?

tunney · 14-10-2010 02:28PM

shotgunmcos wrote: »

By all accounts the swim in Kenmare this year would have been a good IM simulation!

Seriously though, he had 4 weeks to peak for Kona. Why did he do HIMs before IMs?

You could say at his level he recovers faster, but then he races harder too.

One for him to answer not me. Myself and Liam disagree on lots of things.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Tunney, do you just train your way up to IM then or do you factor in any racing along the way?

I do some races alright. A few sprints here or there. There are a few weekends that can fit the plan and whatever is on that weekend I'll go for it.

LCD · 14-10-2010 02:46PM

If you are going to race then race. There is no point travelling to a European HIM to do it at IM pace. Save your money & do a big training day at home & you will also save the 2 days lost to travelling.

Is 5 weeks too little time to recover? It depends entirely on the individual, for some (like myself) it is more than enough, while for others it is sucidial to do an IM so soon after. You have to know your own body & how it recovers. If your not sure my advice would be to air on the side of caution.

Then there is the flip side of the coin. You don't do tri to pay your mortgage, you do it because you enjoy it. If that is the case & you really want to go & treat yourself to a destination race then go & do it. The biggest mistake I see people make is forgetting that the sport is suppose to be about fun & make you happy.

Izoard · 14-10-2010 02:57PM

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Izoard, how did you find doing Sperrin logistically? How was the recovery afterwards?

Logistics were fine. Arrived there 7pm on the Friday, overnight in local hotel. Race and home by 6pm on the Sat (Dublin based).

I recover quickly from most events, but then again, I'm never killing myself to begin with:rolleyes:.

Ideally, I'd prefer the May date for Sperrin, but Sperrin HIM (4 June) + W200 (12 June) + July IM, would be fine from my perspective.

Gringo78 · 14-10-2010 03:22PM

shotgunmcos wrote: »

You could say at his level he recovers faster, but then he races harder too.

Well, he would recover better from HIM....firstly, he does more training in a week so his body is more accustomed to that stress....if he's training up to 20 hours in a week then his taper week would seem like a very hard week to you....likewise a HIM is going to hurt him afterwards a lot less than it does you because in proportion to his regular training weeks its not that big a leap.

He may race harder in so far as maybe sustaining a higher effort level for longer as elites can do but that has to be balanced with the fact that he is doing that for a shorter time overall. I mean, who's going to take longer to recover - a guy finishing well down the order in 6hrs but giving it his all, or someone up the front doing 4hr's? If the 6hr guy gave an honest effort, then I think he's going to be suffering a lot more on monday morning.

shotgunmcos · 14-10-2010 03:27PM

LCD wrote: »

If you are going to race then race. There is no point travelling to a European HIM to do it at IM pace. Save your money & do a big training day at home & you will also save the 2 days lost to travelling.

Is 5 weeks too little time to recover? It depends entirely on the individual, for some (like myself) it is more than enough, while for others it is sucidial to do an IM so soon after. You have to know your own body & how it recovers. If your not sure my advice would be to air on the side of caution.

Then there is the flip side of the coin. You don't do tri to pay your mortgage, you do it because you enjoy it. If that is the case & you really want to go & treat yourself to a destination race then go & do it. The biggest mistake I see people make is forgetting that the sport is suppose to be about fun & make you happy.

Thats a voice of reason! My original plan was to do HIMs in 2011 and step up to IM in 2012 as I'm new to the sport. LIFE plans pushed the IM forward though. I'd still love to do a HIM so doing one before makes more sense as I doubt I'd have the thirst after the IM high! The only one I've done was Kenmare at the end of my rookie year and although it hurt I was grand again pretty soon afterwards.

Huge well done on the Big Island man, that bike split was savage :eek:

Izoard wrote: »

Logistics were fine. Arrived there 7pm on the Friday, overnight in local hotel. Race and home by 6pm on the Sat (Dublin based).

I recover quickly from most events, but then again, I'm never killing myself to begin with:rolleyes:.

Ideally, I'd prefer the May date for Sperrin, but Sperrin HIM (4 June) + W200 (12 June) + July IM, would be fine from my perspective.

Hey Izoard, yeah thats loosely the plan right now. May suited better but hey the only other alternatives that early would be 70.3 off shore. Still a possibility for me only if funds allow and I can make a trip out of it.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 14-10-2010 05:00PM

1st draft training plan attached, any tweaks i should be looking to make

tunney · 14-10-2010 06:18PM

Some here will know where I ripped this from but an apt one

"Frankly, I'm sick of the "My goal is to simply finish" mantra. Any able-bodied person should be capable of finishing. Racing against the clock without a time goal is not racing - it's exercise."

tunney · 14-10-2010 06:33PM

Wren Easy Brick wrote: »

1st draft training plan attached, any tweaks i should be looking to make

Swim sets are monotonous and lack any skills, drills or more importantly for IM strength work. (labeling a session strength doesn't make it so)

Don't see the point of all the gym work. Will just impact your aerobic training. Sport specific strength or core. Nothing else needed.

Its really just the same week repeated for ages with increases in distance. Recovery weeks aren't just weeks off too.

All "long" rides at race pace?? Albeit easy probably is race pace (no disrespect intended)

Too much inappropriate speed work on the run.

Time trials which are nearly as long as your long ride. PLus if you actually TT them then there will be a huge recovery cost - especially when combined with a fast paced run that day.

Your phases are 6 weeks in length. Last 3 will be junk as you'll be too tired (if you aren't then the first 3 were junk).

Lack of recovery built into the programme.

Wouldn't be my cup of tea.

(Yes I am stuck in work waiting on builds)

shotgunmcos · 14-10-2010 06:55PM

yeah.. and I didn't like the spreadsheet format or colours either

Haha no Tunney is right, recovery is not frequent enough, too much run intensity and no mention of technique or skills.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 14-10-2010 07:37PM

Would bringing it back to 3/4 week cycles work better? Yeah i need to rework some of the weeks and make a few changes.

tunney · 14-10-2010 08:40PM

Wren Easy Brick wrote: »

Would bringing it back to 3/4 week cycles work better? Yeah i need to rework some of the weeks and make a few changes.

Afraid its going to need alot more than that. It seems from reading it that you are lacking a little in understanding of the requirement of IM training and general structuring of training in general.

Whats your history in the sport?

Izoard · 15-10-2010 09:01AM

tunney wrote: »

Some here will know where I ripped this from but an apt one

"Frankly, I'm sick of the "My goal is to simply finish" mantra. Any able-bodied person should be capable of finishing. Racing against the clock without a time goal is not racing - it's exercise."

Isn't their time goal 2:20/10:30/17 (for US events at any rate)?

Whether an event is the 100m or IM, there is always a bell curve of finishers.
The punters dipping in under 17hours for IM, depending on their circumstances, may have tried harder than any of the rest.

Everyone who finishes gets to call themselves an IM - actual finishing times are only relevant to the individual (unless you are a pro or aiming for an AG podium).

tunney · 15-10-2010 09:25AM

Izoard wrote: »

Isn't their time goal 2:20/10:30/17 (for US events at any rate)?

Whether an event is the 100m or IM, there is always a bell curve of finishers.
The punters dipping in under 17hours for IM, depending on their circumstances, may have tried harder than any of the rest.

Everyone who finishes gets to call themselves an IM - actual finishing times are only relevant to the individual (unless you are a pro or aiming for an AG podium).

He is not rating a 7:50 against againt s 16:59 - just saying pick a target time be that 9:00, 13:00, or 16:59 - otherwise whats the point?

interested · 15-10-2010 09:53AM

tunney wrote: »

He is not rating a 7:50 against againt s 16:59 - just saying pick a target time be that 9:00, 13:00, or 16:59 - otherwise whats the point?

At a guess Id say most people who put down 'just finish' have a dream time in their head ... but more than likely are unwilling to make it public. Of course on any given day things may not quite go according to plan and things can go from dream time to gold, silver, bronze objectives and then just avoiding a DNF

I wonder how far we're away from 'theres no point doing one unless you're under 10 hours'

LCD · 15-10-2010 12:28PM

Hey Jackyback,

Looking at your programme are you crazy with the 3 sessions a day? That is ITU pro type training. Stick to your 2 a days.
Also I would agree with Tunney there is a lot of gym work in there, which I believe is unecessary. Maybe up until Christmas 2 times a week would be sufficient. After Christmas drop them for big gear work on the bike, hill running or paddles/drag shorts in the pool.
I take it the Sunday rest day is for family commitments? At the very least call in a few IOUs in the New Year to get 1 Sunday a month for a really long ride (building up to 180-200km).
You have a couple of crazy long bricks 160km/34km that are just too much. You are doing almost an IM there in itself. A good idea during your peak volume 4-6 weeks out, Saturday long bike & short run off/Sunday short ride & long run off.

griffin100 · 15-10-2010 01:19PM

No two people are probably ever going to agree on the same plan. I used Fink's competitive plan last year and whilst I deviated a lot from what he required I used his weekend milestones as a guide to where I should be i.e. long run and bike on the weekends. Some of us have busy lives and find it difficult to get all of the planned sessions in or hit long training hours. My aim was a 13hr finish and so I trained with that relatively 'easy' finish time in mind, that said I still failed miserably in this goal and ended up with a 13.50hrs - never realised that IMUK was so bloody hilly:D I was however close to my targeted swim and run times, my lack of hill training on the bike let me down.

You have a couple of crazy long bricks 160km/34km that are just too much.

The longest sessions in the Fink plan over the course of a weekend were '6hr bike / 1 hr run' and a '3 hr run'. 160km/34km brick looks like a lot for an IM (more suited to a DIM perhaps?). Once you reach certain level of aerobic fitness riding and running for longer at a low HR is probably not going to contribute significnatly to your finish time. At some stage you need to start concentrating on speed work as far as I can see, but then again what do I know, I'm not an expert and my best and only IM time is not exactly fast.

"Frankly, I'm sick of the "My goal is to simply finish" mantra. Any able-bodied person should be capable of finishing. Racing against the clock without a time goal is not racing - it's exercise."

Just finishing is a 17hr target, no? I agree with the statement that any able bodied person should be able to do an IM though to some degree. A club mate of mine did Barcelona IM in 16hrs last year on an average of 2.5hrs per week training. He swam well within himself, cycled at a comfortable pace and jogged / walked the marathon. So for most able bodied persons if you can swim 2.4 miles in under 2.20hrs you can do an IM, if you cant swim that distance then you should do some 'adventure races':p (I've heard some good things about Gael Force, apparently its much harder than an IronMan)

Whether you come within 10secs of a Kona spot, or finish 10 secs under the 17hr cut off, you both get the same medal, neither of you have won the race, and your achievements mean nothing to anyone else except you and possibly the people closest to you who understand what it has taken to get you to the finish. If IM was restricted to the fast guys then the start line would a lot less crowded with a loss less craic and would be full of tri nerds talking about wattage, lactate thresholds, the best way to shave your legs and the merits of clinchers v tubs:D.

shotgunmcos · 15-10-2010 01:23PM

^^^^^^^
Nice post

Hey Griffin100, you planning anything for next year?

Izoard · 15-10-2010 03:28PM

I see the yanks are beginning to rise up over the WTC milking the brand.

Scroll to the comments under the 5150 DC announcement...

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 15-10-2010 09:14PM

tunney wrote: »

Afraid its going to need alot more than that. It seems from reading it that you are lacking a little in understanding of the requirement of IM training and general structuring of training in general.

Whats your history in the sport?

Spot on bloody clueless when it comes to this as it's my first IronMan. I have only started doing marathons this year and the odd adventure race so this really is all new to me. I have a very good level of fitness and currently cover two sessions a day 5/6 days a week incoporating cycling/running/gym.

I am targeting a sub 12 hour IM.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 15-10-2010 09:48PM

BTW Griffin doing the same course next year and the bike section looks extremely tough. Dumping my 1st draft plan and going back to the drawing board, going to look into that Fink plan and tailor it to my schedule/target finish time and take out the 3 weekly gym workouts and just keep the 1.

It looks as if i was concentrating too much on covering distance rather than doing specific type training and my training plan should be based on hours rather than kms.

Thanks for the advice lads

shotgunmcos · 15-10-2010 10:49PM

Wren Easy Brick wrote: »

BTW Griffin doing the same course next year and the bike section looks extremely tough. Dumping my 1st draft plan and going back to the drawing board, going to look into that Fink plan and tailor it to my schedule/target finish time and take out the 3 weekly gym workouts and just keep the 1.

It looks as if i was concentrating too much on covering distance rather than doing specific type training and my training plan should be based on hours rather than kms.

Thanks for the advice lads

Jackback. Just a few tips man.
Start with your race date and work backwards.
Get a HRM, use it and get to know how your heart rate works
Give yourself 4 weeks to taper which commences after your biggest week
Build your base over the winter progressively.
Establish what you can give in terms of hours at peak and work back from that to an easy starting point.
3 swims per week at least one pure techhnique
3 bikes per week all easy , one long. It doesn't have to be 5 hours from the gun. Start at 2 hours and build by 10% each week
3 runs per week. All easy, one long easier than midweek ones and progressed as per the bike
If you are a weak swimmer, do more technique.. focus on your limiter
If stength is a limiter, incorporate a session each week.
Include core in your programme
Drop the volume way down or by minimum 25% every 4th week.
Set training objectives for each 4 week block
Test yourself on rest weeks, eg 10*100 swim test at capped heart rate, run distance test at capped base heart rate etc..
Aim to build up to 3k straight swim, 2.5hour run. 5 hour bike individually over the base period.
The purpose of the base period is to get you ready to train for an IM.
IM or build training will last 8-16 weeks, this is where you will progressively introduce some tempo work.
In the latter half training will start to get more specific. Hillwork if the IM is very hilly. Long run on trail if the run will be on trail. OW swimming with Race pace efforts
Pencil in any races you intend to do and consider how you will train at those times.

Avoid building volume or intensity too quickly. If yu are going to use Finks plan as a reference then I'd suggest as Izoard mentioned to get the book to give it context. Joe Friels 'going long' is also worth a read. I read both a couple of times and went through over 100 articles before I began to plan. I had pages and pages of notes to refer to when I approached it.

There is so much to it that you really have to consider all aspects of your plan and of course fitting it around your Life. No 2 plans are the same for anyone. What works for you, only you will know (discover).

You want to be fresh at the start of your programme
Fresh at the end of every recovery week
Fresh for the start of your build phase
Wrecked at the end of your build phase

Fresh as a daisy for race day!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi · 15-10-2010 10:59PM

Great post thanks for taking the time. I have just ordered the Fink book so will read through that first before attempting a second draft plan:). I have a few weeks yet before i am due to start so best to get the training plan right to begin with.

shotgunmcos · 15-10-2010 11:01PM

Izoard wrote: »

I see the yanks are beginning to rise up over the WTC milking the brand.

Scroll to the comments under the 5150 DC announcement...

Probably only the 140.6 types will protest, maybe 70.3 but the WTC will rake in a fortune for the hordes the will flock to the 5150

Notwitch · 20-10-2010 11:36AM

Interested in views on the most effective use of bike training time over the next few months.

I don't have alot of bike years/miles in my legs. About 2 good months of cycling last year and about 6 good months this year. Nothing for years before that. Real life means time is somewhat limited.

So, I'm looking a 2 * 60ish minute sessions and 1 * 2-4 hour session a week from now through end Dec/Jan. Gordo/Friel say get your base miles in all in Zone 2 heart rate - so lots of easy cycling - this will be soul destroying on a turbo. I can probably get the 2-4 hour session outside (at least until the snow comes!) and could happily keep that in Zone 2 but no chance of staying easy on the turbo.

Another view is to work on increasing FTP as this will 'lift all boats' - great, so I could start the shorter sessions as interval sessions now and at least still be sane and training come the new year. I can see why this works for those with years of cycling in their legs but am I kidding myself by putting > zone 2 stuff in the program this early in the season?

metal dog · 20-10-2010 01:19PM

Notwitch wrote: »

- this will be soul destroying on a turbo.

you will get used to it , honest, invest in the wire or the sopranos or whatever:). I know some advocate more high intensity work in the base but i think the consensus is still for z1-z2 for mid-packers. Assuming you are aiming for a mid summer IM , this will still leave you plenty of time to build in intervals, hills etc as you come into the early spring.

I really felt lots of z2 biking stood to me and made it easier to build in the higher rev stuff when it came to it. I had a very weak bike starting out but now feel much more confident about it and took my pb on an olympic down quite a bit even though most of my training was at way below race pace.

One of my base bike sets was a high rev. session as well though, which meant learing to spin at a higher cadence than initially feels natural. This is actually a skill you need to learn and concentrate at and I think it helped as well.

Obviously I am not expert but i do feel that for relative novices overall hours in the saddle all pays off in the end, even if the trubo sets are not very sophisticated ones.

My experience is that you will find yourslef on a particular hill some time next spring finding it a whole lot easier than it was the same time the year before - there are few better feelings and I try to keep that in mind sitting on the bloody turbo sweating all over the place;)

IM 2011 Rollcall

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