Pat(supermacs) on Joe.ie....shut up and do your bit for Ireland

Cianos · 15-10-2010 03:32AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

Supermacs is in the hotel and restaurant industry, which is why I used that number.

Foreign nationals tend to be younger and have higher levels of workforce participation than natives. So whatever percentage of the total population they are, they are generally a higher percentage of the workforce - this is particularly true for Eastern Europeans.

This is a really valid point. People always bandy around stats and complain that so many places employ so many foreign nationals while there's such a high unemployment rate affecting natives. It's as if they think there's some kind of anti-Irish conspiracy going on when the guy behind the counter of McDonalds is from another country.

The fact is that you cannot compare an unemployed Irish person to an unemployed foreign national who came all the way here to work. They are very far from equal in terms of their background and what jobs they would be happy (or rather, delighted) to work in.

As an example, there's a massive difference between an out of work Irish accounts technician in his 40's who was recently made redundant, and a 22 year old Polish guy who only came to Ireland to work in the first place, knowing full well he'd probably be serving burgers or mopping floors.

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 03:33AM

D-Generate wrote: »

don't let it stop you begrudging individuals who have worked hard and become successful in their lives.

Its also worth noting that as a teacher Pat took a long term leave of absence, and could have returned to his teaching job any time he wanted. He's probably entitled to a teacher's pension right now, if he didn't forgo it, and the difference in pay between a temp and permanent teacher. Why do you think so many of the politicians in the Dáil are teachers?

Still, fair play to him.

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 03:38AM

Cianos wrote: »

It's as if they think there's some kind of anti-Irish conspiracy going on when the guy behind the counter of McDonalds is from another country.

I think the point was that they form a much larger part of the workforce than the percentage of population might suggest.

Funny that you mention McDonalds though, they have a nasty habit of employing staff from non-EU countries because those staff are less likely to leave and find other work, since they have a visa only for McDonalds (although that may have been changed lately), thus negating the time spent training them. Nothing like a spot of indentured servitude to help the fries go down.

Cianos · 15-10-2010 03:57AM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think the point was that they form a much larger part of the workforce than the percentage of population might suggest.

Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough, but my point was that there's an obligatory discrepancy between the ratio of Irish to non Irish workers in low paid jobs compared with the ratio of Irish to non Irish in general.

Put it this way; Close to 100% of foreign nationals WILL work in a low paid job, because that is why they came here in the first place. Now, what percentage of Irish people will? These are the people you have to exclude from the list;

Those who already have a job
Those who are too young
Those who are too old
Those who are incapable
Those who are dedicated to other responsibilities (housewives/househusbands)
Those who are unemployed but don't want to work somewhere like McDonalds.
Those who simply don't want to work

Now, when you apply all of the above you should get an impression of the actual ratios. Doing otherwise is only misusing statistics.

Funny that you mention McDonalds though, they have a nasty habit of employing staff from non-EU countries because those staff are less likely to leave and find other work, since they have a visa only for McDonalds (although that may have been changed lately), thus negating the time spent training them. Nothing like a spot of indentured servitude to help the fries go down.

Link?

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 11:11AM

Cianos wrote: »

Now, when you apply all of the above you should get an impression of the actual ratios. Doing otherwise is only misusing statistics.

I've actually lost track of the point here, but I suspect we're talking about the same thing.

Cianos wrote: »

Link?

Only anecdotes sadly, but I've been working with immigrant communities for a while now. It goes like this: McDonalds legally needs to advertise new job openings to ensure they cannot be filled by Irish or EU nationals, so they put up ads looking for people with ten years managerial experience in McDonalds for a shade over minimum wage. This due diligence done (and naturally no takers), they just transfer one of their staff from outside the EU, who is only delighted to get the opportunity, at least until he finds out how much it costs to live here, and that he can't change jobs.

The problem arises with visas which are tied to one employer, or it used to arise, I'm not sure that this hasn't been remedied recently.

Saadyst · 15-10-2010 11:18AM

"Irish jobs" for "Irish people". What a load of balls.

Employers will care about what you can do; and how much you want for doing it.

If you need to have the fact that you are Irish in your favour to win the job... you're doing it wrong. Nationality / colour / race should not enter into it, and rightly so.

RoadKillTs · 15-10-2010 11:35AM

Good article imo. Just a few dolers piss*d off because some guy has the cop on to employ hard working people.

The vast majority of unemployed people would not do these jobs. They are more concerned with bond yields and worrying about the country defaulting. :rolleyes:

TunaSaladBB · 15-10-2010 11:36AM

I think the point is being missed here.

The government should not have spent all that money on advice from solicitors and accountants on the Irish banking fiasco.

If they just listened to the OP's advice, we'd be out of this mess in no time. I'm glad that finally somebody sees what the real problem with the Irish economy is: too many non-Irish workers behind the counter in Supermacs.

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 11:51AM

RoadKillTs wrote: »

The vast majority of unemployed people would not do these jobs.

You've spoken to the vast majority of people on the dole then, and gotten their opinions on the matter?

RoadKillTs · 15-10-2010 12:03PM

You've spoken to the vast majority of people on the dole then, and gotten their opinions on the matter?

You honestly think all the people on the dole can't find a job?
boll0x!!!

The truth is there are loads of minimum wage jobs out there but people won't do them.

The real reason is that our social welfare system is far too generous and lenient.

Name a country that you are better off on the dole than out working?

I'll give you a hint; you live there!!!

The sooner the IMF come in and financially rape us the better.

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 12:15PM

RoadKillTs wrote: »

You honestly think all the people on the dole can't find a job?
boll0x!!!

Great, the recession is over lads, we just need to hire a few motivational speakers to hold forth at the welfare offices.

RoadKillTs · 15-10-2010 12:17PM

Great, the recession is over lads, we just need to hire a few motivational speakers to hold forth at the welfare offices.

They wouldn't listen. More concerned about missing the Jeremy Kyle show.

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 12:19PM

RoadKillTs wrote: »

They wouldn't listen. More concerned about missing the Jeremy Kyle show.

I didn't know they had television back in the 19th century, where some of us are apparently posting from.

Lab_Mouse · 15-10-2010 12:21PM

RoadKillTs wrote: »

The truth is there are loads of minimum wage jobs out there but people won't do them.

Not true.I have been applying for minium wage jobs because not working is fukking soul destroying.Have yet to hear back.Not even a call for an interview.As has my brother to no avail.

Cianos · 15-10-2010 12:26PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I've actually lost track of the point here, but I suspect we're talking about the same thing.

We're not talking about the same thing. You are complaining that the amount of people working in low paid/unskilled jobs is too high when compared to the % of total population the immigrant workers make up.

So for example if immigrants make up 20% of the total population, your view is that it'd be more fair if around 20% of low paid jobs were taken by immigrants? Is this correct?

Only anecdotes sadly, but I've been working with immigrant communities for a while now. It goes like this: McDonalds legally needs to advertise new job openings to ensure they cannot be filled by Irish or EU nationals, so they put up ads looking for people with ten years managerial experience in McDonalds for a shade over minimum wage. This due diligence done (and naturally no takers), they just transfer one of their staff from outside the EU, who is only delighted to get the opportunity, at least until he finds out how much it costs to live here, and that he can't change jobs.

The problem arises with visas which are tied to one employer, or it used to arise, I'm not sure that this hasn't been remedied recently.

Right if true it sounds very dodge practice by McDonalds.

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 12:37PM

Cianos wrote: »

So for example if immigrants make up 20% of the total population, your view is that it'd be more fair if around 20% of low paid jobs were taken by immigrants? Is this correct?

No, my point is that as a percentage of the population, more migrants are in the workforce than the equivalent number of Irish people. So while they might be 10% to 15% of the overall population, they are closer to 20% of the workforce, not 10% of the workforce.

Cianos wrote: »

Right if true it sounds very dodge practice by McDonalds.

There's an impressive amount of shenanigans going on regarding immigration from outside the EU, we have poor Eastern European women being paid a couple of grand by men to set up sham marriages for visas (currently the subject of an ongoing investigation), we have Chinese language schools with hundreds of registered students but only one classroom with desks for twenty children (being discovered and knocked down regularly by the guards), we have people smuggling and prostitution from non EU soviet bloc states, Africa, South and South East Asia, and more stuff I couldn't publicly post without having some serious documentation to back it up, while we have immigrants queueing from 2am in Dublin city centre to get re-entry visas during the one hour from 7am to 8am that the department of Justice will process them, with everyone past a certain number sent away to try again the next day.

There's a lot of unpleasantness going on, once you scratch the surface of what most people know about.

Cianos · 15-10-2010 01:14PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No, my point is that as a percentage of the population, more migrants are in the workforce than the equivalent number of Irish people. So while they might be 10% to 15% of the overall population, they are closer to 20% of the workforce, not 10% of the workforce.

Yes that is what I thought you meant. And it's totally misguiding to simplify it as such.

As I've explained, close to 100% of immigrants who come here are potential workers. The domestic population is not made up of 100% potential workers, it's not anywhere near that. I'll copy and paste;

You have to exclude...

Those who are too young
Those who are too old
Those who are incapable
Those who are dedicated to other responsibilities (housewives/househusbands)
Those who are unemployed but don't want to work somewhere like McDonalds.
Those who simply don't want to work

Demographically speaking, 100,000 immigrants is entirely inequivalent to 100,000 Irish people. So drawing a direct conclusion that the %'s of workers should be in ratio to the %'s of population proportion is totally erroneous.

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 01:41PM

Cianos wrote: »

Demographically speaking, 100,000 immigrants is entirely inequivalent to 100,000 Irish people. So drawing a direct conclusion that the %'s of workers should be in ratio to the %'s of population proportion is totally erroneous.

Thats exactly what I said.

fontanalis · 15-10-2010 01:45PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Maybe but enough of the blanket statements.
I asked a foreign lady for an application in McDonalds, Headford Road, Galway in 2005, Celtic Tiger era and got rejected by the manager, they were fully staffed, fair enough though **** all Irish staff there.
College student, worked years in minimum wage jobs and many Irish people think other Irish people won't work these jobs.

In the end I got another job in Galway as a hotel porter, mopping floors, manning reception, washing dishes and cleaning toilets.

And yet again, posters here think Irish people won't work these jobs? Why?
Have you ever worked in a hotel with 18 full time staff, 16 foreign and two Irish and felt uncomfortable when staff chat away in reception in their own language?
Who worked these jobs before mass immigration? Yes, Irish people did

Yes but that was before free third level education, during the tasmanian tiger you had a lot more irish people with degrees and other qualifications who wouldn't work in the service industry.

Cianos · 15-10-2010 01:46PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Thats exactly what I said.

Okay so! Unless you're arguing that the % of migrants in the workforce should be the same as the % of migrants in the overall population, then I think we're in agreement!

fontanalis · 15-10-2010 01:48PM

Cianos wrote: »

Okay so! Unless you're arguing that the % of migrants in the workforce should be the same as the % of migrants in the overall population, then I think we're in agreement!

So migrants should be sacked to balance things out for Irish people. A bit PC?

Cianos · 15-10-2010 02:23PM

fontanalis wrote: »

So migrants should be sacked to balance things out for Irish people. A bit PC?

No, that's basically what I thought Amhran Nua was suggesting.

K-9 · 15-10-2010 06:02PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I've actually lost track of the point here, but I suspect we're talking about the same thing.

Only anecdotes sadly, but I've been working with immigrant communities for a while now. It goes like this: McDonalds legally needs to advertise new job openings to ensure they cannot be filled by Irish or EU nationals, so they put up ads looking for people with ten years managerial experience in McDonalds for a shade over minimum wage. This due diligence done (and naturally no takers), they just transfer one of their staff from outside the EU, who is only delighted to get the opportunity, at least until he finds out how much it costs to live here, and that he can't change jobs.

The problem arises with visas which are tied to one employer, or it used to arise, I'm not sure that this hasn't been remedied recently.

Would you have an example online of one of these job advertisements?

Amhran Nua · 15-10-2010 06:09PM

K-9 wrote: »

Would you have an example online of one of these job advertisements?

Nope, as I mentioned I'm fairly sure the law has been amended to fix that problem. You can readily find links to most of the rest of the stuff I was talking about if you do a quick google however.

southsiderosie · 15-10-2010 06:22PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, as I mentioned I'm fairly sure the law has been amended to fix that problem. You can readily find links to most of the rest of the stuff I was talking about if you do a quick google however.

From the Citizens Information Board:

*Employers or employees can apply for work permits. However, there must be an offer of employment on the table.

*Employees must stay with the original employer for the first 12 months. If they change jobs, they need to have an offer of employment in hand.

However, one way around the work permit rules for non-EU nationals is to enter Ireland as a student, and then pick up work for 20 hours/week or full time during school holidays. From what I have heard, there is a LOT of abuse of this program, in particular from people who enroll in ESL programs. I think this is where a lot of the non-EU aervice industry workforce comes from...not to mention that those who work in the "ethnic economy" often do so off the books, so they end up working 20 hours/week officially and an additional 20-40 hours/week for cash in hand.

K-9 · 15-10-2010 06:30PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, as I mentioned I'm fairly sure the law has been amended to fix that problem. You can readily find links to most of the rest of the stuff I was talking about if you do a quick google however.

Never doubted the others, that's why I never asked.

Mad they could get away with that, at least it's changed I suppose. There's always going to be some employers out there ready and willing to exploit loopholes, shame.

Anyway, I though foreign nationals were losing jobs at a quicker rate than Irish nationals though that may have changed over the last year.

Doom · 15-10-2010 09:26PM

Lads, Lads and Ladies.....my point is Pat McDonagh is waffling on about the problems on the country and who is to blame, and bad money management....he's not doing much to help is he?

There he is a huge employer, who is doing very little for the country himself, he's not the type of person Ireland should be proud of...he's making a fortune and not doing too much for Irish employment is he? Ask yourself 'What is the local Supermacs doing for your town's unemployment of young Irish' and I know there are plenty of young Irish people that would work there, students, evening, weekend and part-time work for 16 to 18 yr olds, people taking a year out from college, summer jobs, etc, remember the type of people that worked there before the mass influx of non-nationals...supermacs did not just pop up in the last 6 yrs.

I would work there if I was unemployed, and needed to keep a roof over my kids heads

And in the end whats wrong with a pro-rata employment policy?

southsiderosie · 15-10-2010 09:59PM

Doom wrote: »

Lads, Lads and Ladies.....my point is Pat McDonagh is waffling on about the problems on the country and who is to blame, and bad money management....he's not doing much to help is he?

This man owns a business and his job is to make money. What does being Irish have to do with it?

Why are you pointing the finger at employers and not the government who got the country into this mess in the first place?

Doom wrote: »

There he is a huge employer, who is doing very little for the country himself, he's not the type of person Ireland should be proud of...he's making a fortune and not doing too much for Irish employment is he?...And in the end whats wrong with a pro-rata employment policy?

I'm sick of this "Irish employment" ****. Regardless of a worker's nationality, taxes are taken out of their paycheck. They pay rent. They buy food. Having workers helps the Irish economy, even if not all of those workers are Irish. My landlady about started crying when I told her I was not renewing my lease; she knows it will be damn hard to find a new renter in this economy. Incidentally I had to leave because I am not a EEA national and I could not get a visa extension. Ironically, my income was from the US, so I was not "taking" an Irish worker's job, just paying a ****load of rent and VAT. Oh well; sunnier, less picky shores awaited.

BTW, Ireland does have workplace limits on foreign workers - foreign workers who are NOT EEA nationals. The law treats all EU workers equally when it comes to hiring procedures (with the exception of Romanians and Bulgarians).

Doom wrote: »

Ask yourself 'What is the local Supermacs the government doing for your town's unemployment of young Irish' besides talking ****e about turning corners and 'we are where we are'?

FYP

Doom · 15-10-2010 10:24PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

This man owns a business and his job is to make money. What does being Irish have to do with it?

Why are you pointing the finger at employers and not the government who got the country into this mess in the first place?

I'm sick of this "Irish employment" ****. Regardless of a worker's nationality, taxes are taken out of their paycheck. They pay rent. They buy food. Having workers helps the Irish economy, even if not all of those workers are Irish. My landlady about started crying when I told her I was not renewing my lease; she knows it will be damn hard to find a new renter in this economy. Incidentally I had to leave because I am not a EEA national and I could not get a visa extension. Ironically, my income was from the US, so I was not "taking" an Irish worker's job, just paying a ****load of rent and VAT. Oh well; sunnier, less picky shores awaited.

BTW, Ireland does have workplace limits on foreign workers - foreign workers who are NOT EEA nationals. The law treats all EU workers equally when it comes to hiring procedures (with the exception of Romanians and Bulgarians).

FYP

OK...bye
You'll probably claim the tax you paid here back when you get home.....won't you

southsiderosie · 15-10-2010 11:14PM

Doom wrote: »

OK...bye
You'll probably claim the tax you paid here back when you get home.....won't you

If your posts are in any way indicative of the broader mindset among the wider Irish public, no wonder your government is totally ****ing the public up the ass taking the piss. Because clearly everything is somebody else's fault, especially the furriners. :rolleyes:

And no I will never get my tax back on all the bad overpriced restaurant meals I paid for...or any tax benefits for the rent I paid for my small musty studio. Just more in the pot for your elected leaders to fritter away on ridiculous expense claims, quangos, and sweet retirement packages...for themselves of course; god help the rest of yiz.

Pat(supermacs) on Joe.ie....shut up and do your bit for Ireland

Comments