Pat(supermacs) on Joe.ie....shut up and do your bit for Ireland

Doom

Pat McDonagh: economic fall-out


07/10/2010 1:36 pm

Pat McDonagh went from school teacher to one of Ireland’s most successful business leaders. This week, he looks at the fall-out of Ireland’s economic problems.
Pat McDonagh went from school teacher to one of Ireland’s most successful and respected business leaders.
His flagship enterprise, Supermac's, currently has a turnover in excess of €83m and has over 2,500 employees in just under 100 branches. Today it serves an average of over 320,000 customers a week.
In the latest installment of his exclusive JOE.ie column Pat looks at the mishandling of the Irish economy – and at who is going to pick up the tab.
Ben Dunne recently went on record as saying that the whole political system will have to be torn down and rebuilt from the bottom up, and I would have to agree. So much cronyism, crookedness and outright dishonesty has crept in over the past decades that there doesn’t seem to be any other option.
Figures were recently released detailing the amount of money paid by the Government to various firms for legal advice on the issue of the banking crisis and the fate of Anglo Irish. In total close to €40 million was paid out. Arthur Cox was the biggest recipient – earning in the region of €10 million. The figures involved are disgraceful.
Further down the list of recipients was Deloitte & Touche – who had previously worked for Anglo. The Irish Government then decided to pay the firm some colossal amount for giving advice. So here you had a situation where the auditors of Anglo Irish Bank, who should have seen the recklessness that was going on there, were going back and being paid to give advice to the Government on how to deal with a bank where they hadn’t seen the problem in the first place.
With regard to the economy – things may improve, but there will be a fair bit of pain in the meantime. I feel sorry for a lot of the ordinary people who have got tied into massive mortgages and are now finding it difficult to pay because they have lost their jobs.

Never in the history of the state has there been such a need for leadership, and never has there been such a lack of it.

Freefall, on RTE, has been looking at some of the reasons why this happened. It gave the wages of three major chief executives – the head of AIB was on €70,000 per week, a bank of Ireland CEO was on €80,000 while David Drum at Anglo Irish was on €90,000 a week – not including expenses. €90,000 per week works out as €4.6 million per year. When you add on a couple of hundred thousand for expenses, you’re looking at an annual salary of €5 million a year.
Never in the history of the state has there been such a need for leadership, and never has there been such a lack of it.
Now, I know a guy who is self-employed, business is down for him and he has been struggling to make ends meet. He owed a couple of thousand in taxes and the sheriff was called out. He came home from work to find the sheriff waiting for him. The sheriff asked him to sign a form allowing them to take his car and the next morning they came back and took it.
Contrast that to people like Michael Fingleton with his €27 million – who were actually party to the problem and who are now walking from the scene with huge pensions. It’s hard for a normal guy not to lose it when the sheriff comes out to take his car. The weaker in society are going to be most affected at the end of the day. That’s just the way the system works.
The Government at present isn’t taking the steps needed to rectify the situation and I also don’t think the opposition are going to be able to do it. Unless something happens in the next couple of months I can see the IMF coming in to take control. I think it’s going to come down to a situation where someone will have to come in from outside to tell us the steps that have to be taken and lay out how the country will need to be run from here on in. No political party want s to take the tough decisions needed to rectify the situation because they know well they will be hammered at the next election.
Never in the history of the state has there been such a need for leadership, and never has there been such a lack of it.

http://www.joe.ie/business-money/business/pat-mcdonagh-economic-fall-out-2-005951-1


So Pat, do your bit for the country Why don't you hire some Irish people, or at least do it pro rata.....10% foreign workers 90% Irish...and thats been generous to the non nations, cause non nationals account for less than 10% of the working polulation

Absurdum

well Pat, since you can't make a decent chip, stick your advice up yo hoop

galwayrush

Doom wrote: »

So Pat, do your bit for the country Why don't you hire some Irish people, or at least do it pro rata.....10% foreign workers 90% Irish...and thats been generous to the non nations, cause non nationals account for less than 10% of the working polulation

I'd say he hires the best from those who apply to work there.:rolleyes:

alwaysadub

Sure Supermacs were actually brought to court a couple of months ago for paying their non Irish workers less than they were paying their Irish workers. I know for a fact my local Supermacs has one part time Irish person working there and that's it. In saying that, they're sh1t to work for anyway.

stovelid

HINT: skip the long bit and go to the end.

Summary: Dey're Turking Our Jobs.

/end

Grimreaper666

alwaysadub wrote: »

Sure Supermacs were actually brought to court a couple of months ago for paying their non Irish workers less than they were paying their Irish workers. I know for a fact my local Supermacs has one part time Irish person working there and that's it. In saying that, they're sh1t to work for anyway.

And that's how they make money.........I don't know why people buy their stuff, it's sh!te, I went there once and I nearly threw up, their stuff is well off the mark.

Sponge Bob

Is Pat involved in that Chinatown by Athlone scheme ?? He owns some land there, see item 4 on this list

southsiderosie

Doom wrote: »

So Pat, do your bit for the country Why don't you hire some Irish people, or at least do it pro rata.....10% foreign workers 90% Irish...and thats been generous to the non nations, cause non nationals account for less than 10% of the working polulation

Wow, in a long article detailing how utterly corrupt the political system is, your takeaway is about foreign workers. Yes, it's all the Poles' fault that the economy is ****e, rabble rabble.

Oh, BTW, non-nationals were definitely not less than 10% of the working population..they were more than 30% of hotel and restaurant workers at the peak of the boom.

Dudess

I once had a Supermacs burger - mmmm... jizz-tastic.

galwayrush

Dudess wrote: »

I once had a Supermacs burger - mmmm... jizz-tastic.

That's what jizz tastes like ? :eek::eek::eek:

someuser905

i dont like their chips, burgers are ok, infact good fast food chips are rare

brendansmith

galwayrush wrote: »

I'd say he hires the best from those who apply to work there.:rolleyes:

He only hires the ultra elite.

colly10

southsiderosie wrote: »

Oh, BTW, non-nationals were definitely not less than 10% of the working population..they were more than 30% of hotel and restaurant workers at the peak of the boom.

The working population consists of more than just the hotel and restaurant workers. Foreign born residents made up about 15% of the total population in 2006 so saying they make up around 10% of the working population now is probably spot on

colly10

someuser905 wrote: »

i dont like their chips, burgers are ok, infact good fast food chips are rare

I don't think they exist unless you'd class somewhere like bobo's as fast food. It's hard to get decent chips, even from a takeaway

admiralofthefleet

the one in blackrock used to offer the staff a room in the flat overhead if they took a reduction in wages

squod

Another cash only restaurant near me. Getting seriously pissed with cafe's and restaurants like supermacs not accepting debit cards. I rarely get a receipt now either.

Do revenue ever eat in these places?

phasers

Supermacs is absolutely disgusting, I'm not listening to a man who calls that crap food

OPENROAD

colly10 wrote: »

The working population consists of more than just the hotel and restaurant workers. Foreign born residents made up about 15% of the total population in 2006 so saying they make up around 10% of the working population now is probably spot on

Well it was 10% in 2007, so must have been a 5% drop from 2006 to 2007

HavingCrack

Doom wrote: »

So Pat, do your bit for the country Why don't you hire some Irish people, or at least do it pro rata.....10% foreign workers 90% Irish...and thats been generous to the non nations, cause non nationals account for less than 10% of the working polulation

Back in the boom Irish people had zero interest in working in somewhere like Supermacs. I suppose you could withdraw from the EU and that'd get rid of all those pesky Poles :pac:

whitelightrider

Just as well this is in After Hours. Has anyone here ever worked for Pat or for Supermacs? I did when I was 16 and his company was the starting ground for a lot of us. He was the only one to hire us as "kids". The work was hard but the money was pretty good.
And the reason he hires a lot of foreign workers now? Because they want the work. Us Irish got too used to having plenty of cash and wouldnt lower ourselves to that kind of work. Now that things have turned around we're giving out that the "foreigners" have our jobs. Pathetic. They're not our jobs. Supermacs has hired the people who wanted to work. Simple as.
And no, I dont work for Supermacs any more. But am thankful for the start I was given.

colly10

OPENROAD wrote: »

Well it was 10% in 2007, so must have been a 5% drop from 2006 to 2007

True, in May 2007 RTE quoted it as 10% of the total population

southsiderosie

colly10 wrote: »

The working population consists of more than just the hotel and restaurant workers. Foreign born residents made up about 15% of the total population in 2006 so saying they make up around 10% of the working population now is probably spot on

Supermacs is in the hotel and restaurant industry, which is why I used that number.

Foreign nationals tend to be younger and have higher levels of workforce participation than natives. So whatever percentage of the total population they are, they are generally a higher percentage of the workforce - this is particularly true for Eastern Europeans.

Hyperbullet

Where in that interview was "shut up and do your bit for Ireland" stated?


Sure they employ a lot of foreign workers, because no Irish person wants to work there it seems, people would rather be unemployed and gripe and moan about the state of things here. We lost all sense of what employment is here during the "boom" years, and this elitist sense of looking down on others working in the fast food industry and other sectors grew. Its utter tripe. If I lost my job in the morning I'd have no problem throwing my cv into Macdonalds or Supermacs if it gave me an opportunity to earn a wage every week. People need some perspective.

maxxie

question beside the point sorry, but why does the sherriff pay a percentage to the queen to this day?

mikemac

Hyperbullet wrote: »

Sure they employ a lot of foreign workers, because no Irish person wants to work there it seems, people would rather be unemployed and gripe and moan about the state of things here.

Maybe but enough of the blanket statements.
I asked a foreign lady for an application in McDonalds, Headford Road, Galway in 2005, Celtic Tiger era and got rejected by the manager, they were fully staffed, fair enough though **** all Irish staff there.
College student, worked years in minimum wage jobs and many Irish people think other Irish people won't work these jobs.

In the end I got another job in Galway as a hotel porter, mopping floors, manning reception, washing dishes and cleaning toilets.

And yet again, posters here think Irish people won't work these jobs? Why?
Have you ever worked in a hotel with 18 full time staff, 16 foreign and two Irish and felt uncomfortable when staff chat away in reception in their own language?
Who worked these jobs before mass immigration? Yes, Irish people did

Hyperbullet

feelingstressed wrote: »

Maybe but enough of the blanket statements.
I asked a foreign lady for an application in McDonalds, Headford Road, Galway in 2005, Celtic Tiger era and got rejected by the manager, they were fully staffed, fair enough though **** all Irish staff there.
College student, worked years in minimum wage jobs and many Irish people think other Irish people won't work these jobs.

In the end I got another job in Galway as a hotel porter, mopping floors, manning reception, washing dishes and cleaning toilets.

And yet again, posters here think Irish people won't work these jobs? Why?
Have you ever worked in a hotel with 18 full time staff, 16 foreign and two Irish and felt uncomfortable when staff chat away in reception in their own language?
Who worked these jobs before mass immigration? Yes, Irish people did

A very valid point, yet in an age where mass immigration is nationwide, why aren't more Irish people filling positions that were vacated by other Irish? My issue here stems from my own experience of people I know in Galway that are unemployed and seeking work that turn their nose up at the notion of working in any fast food restaurant. I don't understand the mentality.

I admit my previous post was a bit of a blanket statement, but there's no denying that the mentality among Irish people in general exists.

On your other point about working in a place where there are a minimal amount of Irish staff: You're totally right up to a point. I worked temporary Christmas shifts in Dunnes a few years back where I was the only Irish lad on the floor. It was horrible at the time, had to sit through lunch on my own, had no craic at all, but I was happy with the money I got afterwards. Would I go through it again if I lost my job, damn right. It'd be crap but at least I'd have some income to give myself an outlet to have a social life outside of the workplace.

mikemac

A fair reply Hyperbullet, thank you

There are Irish people on the dole who would reject any job stocking shelves or working in a hotel/fast food.
Likewise, there are Irish people getting rejected and wondering how non national staff are getting jobs and they are not. And if they get a job then being the only Irish person on a shift and feeling excluded from coversations in a foreign language is horrible. Maybe the only Irish person is a team of eight, a stranger in your own country

In every country in Europe, some people are lazy and some are some incredibly hard working. Some are wasters and some are legends at work.

I don't like blanket statements, that's all

Amhran Nua

Hyperbullet wrote: »

A very valid point, yet in an age where mass immigration is nationwide, why aren't more Irish people filling positions that were vacated by other Irish?

The positions are generally closed after being vacated. During the boom we had around 1% long term unemployment, and before 2004, floors were still swept, burgers were still served, and toilets were still cleaned. We have a well motivated and capable workforce here, cries of "lazy Irish" are utter nonsense.

K-9

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The positions are generally closed after being vacated. During the boom we had around 1% long term unemployment, and before 2004, floors were still swept, burgers were still served, and toilets were still cleaned. We have a well motivated and capable workforce here, cries of "lazy Irish" are utter nonsense.

True, catering became less attractive for Irish people though with the boom in construction and finance.

As for the OP, Jaysus, talk about missing the point.

skelliser

what exactly is the issue here?!

every single thing he said in the article is 100% true. Although its nothing we didnt know already.

D-Generate

OP does not seem to possess reading comprehension skills as this article in no way suggests that Pat McDonagh tells the affected citizens to "shut up and do your bit for Ireland". On the contrary he seems to be largely sympathetic to the average Joe on the street and critical of inefficiencies in government spending.

OP if you are unemployed I suggest you get a book that covers how to obtain information from reading articles.... but with this new found knowledge don't let it stop you begrudging individuals who have worked hard and become successful in their lives. I wouldn't want you to think that you ever have to admire these people!

Cianos

southsiderosie wrote: »

Supermacs is in the hotel and restaurant industry, which is why I used that number.

Foreign nationals tend to be younger and have higher levels of workforce participation than natives. So whatever percentage of the total population they are, they are generally a higher percentage of the workforce - this is particularly true for Eastern Europeans.

This is a really valid point. People always bandy around stats and complain that so many places employ so many foreign nationals while there's such a high unemployment rate affecting natives. It's as if they think there's some kind of anti-Irish conspiracy going on when the guy behind the counter of McDonalds is from another country.

The fact is that you cannot compare an unemployed Irish person to an unemployed foreign national who came all the way here to work. They are very far from equal in terms of their background and what jobs they would be happy (or rather, delighted) to work in.

As an example, there's a massive difference between an out of work Irish accounts technician in his 40's who was recently made redundant, and a 22 year old Polish guy who only came to Ireland to work in the first place, knowing full well he'd probably be serving burgers or mopping floors.

Amhran Nua

D-Generate wrote: »

don't let it stop you begrudging individuals who have worked hard and become successful in their lives.

Its also worth noting that as a teacher Pat took a long term leave of absence, and could have returned to his teaching job any time he wanted. He's probably entitled to a teacher's pension right now, if he didn't forgo it, and the difference in pay between a temp and permanent teacher. Why do you think so many of the politicians in the Dáil are teachers?

Still, fair play to him.

Amhran Nua

Cianos wrote: »

It's as if they think there's some kind of anti-Irish conspiracy going on when the guy behind the counter of McDonalds is from another country.

I think the point was that they form a much larger part of the workforce than the percentage of population might suggest.

Funny that you mention McDonalds though, they have a nasty habit of employing staff from non-EU countries because those staff are less likely to leave and find other work, since they have a visa only for McDonalds (although that may have been changed lately), thus negating the time spent training them. Nothing like a spot of indentured servitude to help the fries go down.

Cianos

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think the point was that they form a much larger part of the workforce than the percentage of population might suggest.

Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough, but my point was that there's an obligatory discrepancy between the ratio of Irish to non Irish workers in low paid jobs compared with the ratio of Irish to non Irish in general.

Put it this way; Close to 100% of foreign nationals WILL work in a low paid job, because that is why they came here in the first place. Now, what percentage of Irish people will? These are the people you have to exclude from the list;

Those who already have a job
Those who are too young
Those who are too old
Those who are incapable
Those who are dedicated to other responsibilities (housewives/househusbands)
Those who are unemployed but don't want to work somewhere like McDonalds.
Those who simply don't want to work

Now, when you apply all of the above you should get an impression of the actual ratios. Doing otherwise is only misusing statistics.

Funny that you mention McDonalds though, they have a nasty habit of employing staff from non-EU countries because those staff are less likely to leave and find other work, since they have a visa only for McDonalds (although that may have been changed lately), thus negating the time spent training them. Nothing like a spot of indentured servitude to help the fries go down.

Link?

Amhran Nua

Cianos wrote: »

Now, when you apply all of the above you should get an impression of the actual ratios. Doing otherwise is only misusing statistics.

I've actually lost track of the point here, but I suspect we're talking about the same thing.

Cianos wrote: »

Link?

Only anecdotes sadly, but I've been working with immigrant communities for a while now. It goes like this: McDonalds legally needs to advertise new job openings to ensure they cannot be filled by Irish or EU nationals, so they put up ads looking for people with ten years managerial experience in McDonalds for a shade over minimum wage. This due diligence done (and naturally no takers), they just transfer one of their staff from outside the EU, who is only delighted to get the opportunity, at least until he finds out how much it costs to live here, and that he can't change jobs.

The problem arises with visas which are tied to one employer, or it used to arise, I'm not sure that this hasn't been remedied recently.

Saadyst

"Irish jobs" for "Irish people". What a load of balls.

Employers will care about what you can do; and how much you want for doing it.

If you need to have the fact that you are Irish in your favour to win the job... you're doing it wrong. Nationality / colour / race should not enter into it, and rightly so.

RoadKillTs

Good article imo. Just a few dolers piss*d off because some guy has the cop on to employ hard working people.

The vast majority of unemployed people would not do these jobs. They are more concerned with bond yields and worrying about the country defaulting. :rolleyes:

TunaSaladBB

I think the point is being missed here.

The government should not have spent all that money on advice from solicitors and accountants on the Irish banking fiasco.

If they just listened to the OP's advice, we'd be out of this mess in no time. I'm glad that finally somebody sees what the real problem with the Irish economy is: too many non-Irish workers behind the counter in Supermacs.

Amhran Nua

RoadKillTs wrote: »

The vast majority of unemployed people would not do these jobs.

You've spoken to the vast majority of people on the dole then, and gotten their opinions on the matter?

RoadKillTs

You've spoken to the vast majority of people on the dole then, and gotten their opinions on the matter?

You honestly think all the people on the dole can't find a job?
boll0x!!!

The truth is there are loads of minimum wage jobs out there but people won't do them.

The real reason is that our social welfare system is far too generous and lenient.

Name a country that you are better off on the dole than out working?

I'll give you a hint; you live there!!!

The sooner the IMF come in and financially rape us the better.

Amhran Nua

RoadKillTs wrote: »

You honestly think all the people on the dole can't find a job?
boll0x!!!

Great, the recession is over lads, we just need to hire a few motivational speakers to hold forth at the welfare offices.

RoadKillTs

Great, the recession is over lads, we just need to hire a few motivational speakers to hold forth at the welfare offices.

They wouldn't listen. More concerned about missing the Jeremy Kyle show.

Amhran Nua

RoadKillTs wrote: »

They wouldn't listen. More concerned about missing the Jeremy Kyle show.

I didn't know they had television back in the 19th century, where some of us are apparently posting from.

Lab_Mouse

RoadKillTs wrote: »

The truth is there are loads of minimum wage jobs out there but people won't do them.

Not true.I have been applying for minium wage jobs because not working is fukking soul destroying.Have yet to hear back.Not even a call for an interview.As has my brother to no avail.

Cianos

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I've actually lost track of the point here, but I suspect we're talking about the same thing.

We're not talking about the same thing. You are complaining that the amount of people working in low paid/unskilled jobs is too high when compared to the % of total population the immigrant workers make up.

So for example if immigrants make up 20% of the total population, your view is that it'd be more fair if around 20% of low paid jobs were taken by immigrants? Is this correct?

Only anecdotes sadly, but I've been working with immigrant communities for a while now. It goes like this: McDonalds legally needs to advertise new job openings to ensure they cannot be filled by Irish or EU nationals, so they put up ads looking for people with ten years managerial experience in McDonalds for a shade over minimum wage. This due diligence done (and naturally no takers), they just transfer one of their staff from outside the EU, who is only delighted to get the opportunity, at least until he finds out how much it costs to live here, and that he can't change jobs.

The problem arises with visas which are tied to one employer, or it used to arise, I'm not sure that this hasn't been remedied recently.

Right if true it sounds very dodge practice by McDonalds.

Amhran Nua

Cianos wrote: »

So for example if immigrants make up 20% of the total population, your view is that it'd be more fair if around 20% of low paid jobs were taken by immigrants? Is this correct?

No, my point is that as a percentage of the population, more migrants are in the workforce than the equivalent number of Irish people. So while they might be 10% to 15% of the overall population, they are closer to 20% of the workforce, not 10% of the workforce.

Cianos wrote: »

Right if true it sounds very dodge practice by McDonalds.

There's an impressive amount of shenanigans going on regarding immigration from outside the EU, we have poor Eastern European women being paid a couple of grand by men to set up sham marriages for visas (currently the subject of an ongoing investigation), we have Chinese language schools with hundreds of registered students but only one classroom with desks for twenty children (being discovered and knocked down regularly by the guards), we have people smuggling and prostitution from non EU soviet bloc states, Africa, South and South East Asia, and more stuff I couldn't publicly post without having some serious documentation to back it up, while we have immigrants queueing from 2am in Dublin city centre to get re-entry visas during the one hour from 7am to 8am that the department of Justice will process them, with everyone past a certain number sent away to try again the next day.

There's a lot of unpleasantness going on, once you scratch the surface of what most people know about.

Cianos

Amhran Nua wrote: »

No, my point is that as a percentage of the population, more migrants are in the workforce than the equivalent number of Irish people. So while they might be 10% to 15% of the overall population, they are closer to 20% of the workforce, not 10% of the workforce.

Yes that is what I thought you meant. And it's totally misguiding to simplify it as such.

As I've explained, close to 100% of immigrants who come here are potential workers. The domestic population is not made up of 100% potential workers, it's not anywhere near that. I'll copy and paste;

You have to exclude...

Those who are too young
Those who are too old
Those who are incapable
Those who are dedicated to other responsibilities (housewives/househusbands)
Those who are unemployed but don't want to work somewhere like McDonalds.
Those who simply don't want to work

Demographically speaking, 100,000 immigrants is entirely inequivalent to 100,000 Irish people. So drawing a direct conclusion that the %'s of workers should be in ratio to the %'s of population proportion is totally erroneous.

Amhran Nua

Cianos wrote: »

Demographically speaking, 100,000 immigrants is entirely inequivalent to 100,000 Irish people. So drawing a direct conclusion that the %'s of workers should be in ratio to the %'s of population proportion is totally erroneous.

Thats exactly what I said.

fontanalis

feelingstressed wrote: »

Maybe but enough of the blanket statements.
I asked a foreign lady for an application in McDonalds, Headford Road, Galway in 2005, Celtic Tiger era and got rejected by the manager, they were fully staffed, fair enough though **** all Irish staff there.
College student, worked years in minimum wage jobs and many Irish people think other Irish people won't work these jobs.

In the end I got another job in Galway as a hotel porter, mopping floors, manning reception, washing dishes and cleaning toilets.

And yet again, posters here think Irish people won't work these jobs? Why?
Have you ever worked in a hotel with 18 full time staff, 16 foreign and two Irish and felt uncomfortable when staff chat away in reception in their own language?
Who worked these jobs before mass immigration? Yes, Irish people did

Yes but that was before free third level education, during the tasmanian tiger you had a lot more irish people with degrees and other qualifications who wouldn't work in the service industry.

Cianos

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Thats exactly what I said.

Okay so! Unless you're arguing that the % of migrants in the workforce should be the same as the % of migrants in the overall population, then I think we're in agreement!