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The Labour Party

  • 13-10-2010 08:55PM
    #1
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭


    A vote for them is a vote for Enda Kenny to be taoiseach

    Anyway there is no meaningful differences between Labour and FF or FG. Labour support the plan to reduce the deficit to 3% by 2014 the same as FF and FG. This means huge cutbacks to public services, welfare and jobs. Labour fully support doing whatever the EU says. They blindly support the EU. Look at Labour's record in power. Nothing but acting as a crutch to FG and enforcing hardship. They can't be trusted either. Remember in 1992 when Spring put FF into power after promising not to? After the first Lisbon treaty Gilmore said it was dead but they were canvassing for it again a year later telling us it would bring jobs and investment. FF, FG and Labour should all merge into one big free market party.


«134567

Comments

  • #2
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    McDougal wrote: »
    A vote for them is a vote for Enda Kenny to be taoiseach

    Anyway there is no meaningful differences between Labour and FF or FG. Labour support the plan to reduce the deficit to 3% by 2014 the same as FF and FG. This means huge cutbacks to public services, welfare and jobs. Labour fully support doing whatever the EU says. They blindly support the EU. Look at Labour's record in power. Nothing but acting as a crutch to FG and enforcing hardship. They can't be trusted either. Remember in 1992 when Spring put FF into power after promising not to? After the first Lisbon treaty Gilmore said it was dead but they were canvassing for it again a year later telling us it would bring jobs and investment. FF, FG and Labour should all merge into one big free market party.

    They're all the same, yeah ?

    So corruption and track record to date has no bearing on your evaluation ?


  • #3
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    My God. What rubbish. If you have listened to the Labour Party over the past year, they have spouted endless leftist rhetoric, and are beholden to the idea of "progressive taxation", and "wealth taxes". They are left. And no matter what combination of parties make up the next Dail, Labour would be there.

    Am I to assume you would prefer some kind of extreme leftist clique running the show ? If so, I suggest you take a look at all the countries behind the old white line between the east and west of Europe. Extreme leftism failed. Get over it.


  • #4
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #5
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    They're all the same, yeah ?

    So corruption and track record to date has no bearing on your evaluation ?

    No they are not all the same but a vote for Labour means you are getting Kenny as taoiseach and the other blueshirts
    Het-Field wrote: »
    My God. What rubbish. If you have listened to the Labour Party over the past year, they have spouted endless leftist rhetoric, and are beholden to the idea of "progressive taxation", and "wealth taxes". They are left. And no matter what combination of parties make up the next Dail, Labour would be there.

    Am I to assume you would prefer some kind of extreme leftist clique running the show ? If so, I suggest you take a look at all the countries behind the old white line between the east and west of Europe. Extreme leftism failed. Get over it.

    Plenty of rhetoric alright and no clear positions. Labour in opposition spout populist crap but in government they are about the status quo.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The stability and growth pact is broken all the time by France. One rule for them and another for the little peripheral nations.


  • #6
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    McDougal wrote: »
    No they are not all the same but a vote for Labour means you are getting Kenny as taoiseach and the other blueshirts.

    That is not a certainty. Depending on whether there is a leadership putcsh in FG, or if the suffer a further demise of popularity in the opinion polls we could be in a very tight election which could ensure that Labour could have a choice of partners.


    McDougal wrote: »
    Plenty of rhetoric alright and no clear positions. Labour in opposition spout populist crap but in government they are about the status quo.

    I agree that the rhetoric has given rise to a lack of clarity, however, Labour WILL not back down as they have to keep their Union base happy. They will also seek to maintain their new found support within the public sector


    The stability and growth pact is broken all the time by France. One rule for them and another for the little peripheral nations.[/QUOTE]
    McDougal wrote: »
    "A bigger boy told me to do it". What France do is their own business. We are not a comparator to France. Never were, and never will be. Ireland must look after it's own affairs. France are a leftist model in terms of wanton public expenditure. However, they have managed to pull themselves back from the brink of disaster.


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  • #7
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    McDougal wrote: »
    A vote for them is a vote for Enda Kenny to be taoiseach
    So what am I to do? ....should I just not bother so?

    You cast your vote based on the party's track record and policies. So If I want to vote Labour I shouldn't if I don't like Kenny? A vote for any party is possibly a vote for any other party by that logic.

    A vote for Labour is a vote for Labour, it says it on the piece of paper;)
    And play the ball not the man...FG are a party with policies not a dictatorship.
    McDougal wrote: »
    Anyway there is no meaningful differences between Labour and FF or FG.
    Just so you know, the powers that be love nothing better than a disgruntled voter, who's so disgruntled he doesn't cast a vote.


  • #8
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    You cast your vote based on the party's track record and policies. So If I want to vote Labour I shouldn't if I don't like Kenny? A vote for any party is possibly a vote for any other party by that logic.

    Under the Irish system that's almost true, at least in a black and white sense. You don't know when you're voting for a party what coalition may come out of it - you have to vote for your preferred party and hope that whatever coalition they wind up in they'll be able to implement at least some of the policies your preference for them is based on.

    Admittedly, people don't seem to be very good at applying that logic.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #9
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    You vote for the party they want, and given that we end up in coalition more often than not you hopefully get your party a big enough seat at the table to make a contribution.

    The problem I have with Labour is that they are joined at the hip to the unions, who seem to be living in a fairy land when it comes to bridging our €20bn a year deficit.


  • #10
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    So what am I to do? ....should I just not bother so?

    You cast your vote based on the party's track record and policies. So If I want to vote Labour I shouldn't if I don't like Kenny? A vote for any party is possibly a vote for any other party by that logic.

    A vote for Labour is a vote for Labour, it says it on the piece of paper;)
    And play the ball not the man...FG are a party with policies not a dictatorship.

    Just so you know, the powers that be love nothing better than a disgruntled voter, who's so disgruntled he doesn't cast a vote.

    No you should vote but if you want change don't vote for Labour


  • #11
    mayo_lad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 563 ✭✭✭mayo_lad


    McDougal wrote: »
    No you should vote but if you want change don't vote for Labour

    do you mean change like this http://www.faircare.ie/ instead of just throwing money at it

    or this http://www.finegael.ie/upload/NewERA2010.pdf actually stimulating the economy instead of taking money out of it

    or this http://www.finegael.org/upload/NewPolitics.pdf instead of the status qou


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  • #12
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    McDougal wrote: »
    No you should vote but if you want change don't vote for Labour

    Who would you suggest then? Christian solidarity party?


  • #13
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    McDougal wrote: »
    No they are not all the same but a vote for Labour means you are getting Kenny as taoiseach and the other blueshirts

    As Het-Field said, that's not a definite, but even if it were I could live with that, not least because it ensures that the current shower of con-men are evicted.


  • #14
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Am I to assume you would prefer some kind of extreme leftist clique running the show ? If so, I suggest you take a look at all the countries behind the old white line between the east and west of Europe. Extreme leftism failed. Get over it.

    Extreme capitalism failed too. It's just that those with vested interests have the connections and money to try and jump-start it again.


  • #15
    Robert Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Robert Dublin


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Who would you suggest then? Christian solidarity party?

    Christain solidarity party, Socialist Workers Party, Sinn Fein, Independents

    I would not waste my vote with the labour party, they are the same shower of wasters as Fianna Fail.

    Oisin Quinn a proposed labour party candidate in the next election is a son of Lochlainn Quinn one of the major players in AIB during the so called boom years.
    If you are seeking for something new in Labour compared to FF or FG you are in for a surprise ? When Ruairi Quinn was Minister for Finance he gave substantial tax breaks to big business and speculators as the others and he certainly did not claw back any schemes introduced by previous ministers.


  • #16
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Under the Irish system that's almost true, at least in a black and white sense. You don't know when you're voting for a party what coalition may come out of it - you have to vote for your preferred party and hope that whatever coalition they wind up in they'll be able to implement at least some of the policies your preference for them is based on.

    Admittedly, people don't seem to be very good at applying that logic.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    All true, except when a party deliberately states / gives the impression that they won't join a specific other.

    As a direct result of on what went on the last election - as I said elsewhere - I will be looking for a guarantee that none of the candidates that want my vote will sign up with FF or the Greens (or, to be fair, Lowry)


  • #17
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Robert Dublin wrote: »
    Christain solidarity party, Socialist Workers Party, Sinn Fein, Independents

    I would not waste my vote with the labour party, they are the same shower of wasters as Fianna Fail.

    Oisin Quinn a proposed labour party candidate in the next election is a son of Lochlainn Quinn one of the major players in AIB during the so called boom years.
    If you are seeking for something new in Labour compared to FF or FG you are in for a surprise ? When Ruairi Quinn was Minister for Finance he gave substantial tax breaks to big business and speculators as the others and he certainly did not claw back any schemes introduced by previous ministers.

    Great, vote in extremists with no experience.

    If the tax breaks by Ruairi Quinn youre refering to are the reduction in the corporation tax to 12.5%, the single most important factor in stimulating foreign direct investment. Along with the free 3rd level education, also a Quinn initiative, then more of that please!

    Maybe Quinn brining the General Government Balance from a deficit of 2.1% in 1995 to a surplus of 1.1% in 1997 was also a bad thing


  • #18
    Robert Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Robert Dublin


    Extremeists I think this is a bit rich from a party whose leader was a former member of the Official IRA

    What is socialist about giving big business a tax rate of 12.5% compared to a minimum of 20% to 40% for the ordinary worker ?
    Why did the great reformer Ruairi not end the practice of the top earners in the country paying an average rate of tax of 6% by the use of tax write offs and acc. capital depreciation ???
    As stated FF = FG =Labour. Right wing parties.
    This model has shown to be flawed hence the mess we are in.
    By the way what is labours current tax policy ?
    If you have no policy you do not offend anyone. Oh isnt it great to be populist.


  • #19
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    mayo_lad wrote: »
    do you mean change like this http://www.faircare.ie/ instead of just throwing money at it

    or this http://www.finegael.ie/upload/NewERA2010.pdf actually stimulating the economy instead of taking money out of it

    or this http://www.finegael.org/upload/NewPolitics.pdf instead of the status qou

    Basically FG are just advocating privatisation and dressing it up as some revolutionary new idea?


  • #20
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Robert Dublin wrote: »
    What is socialist about giving big business a tax rate of 12.5% compared to a minimum of 20% to 40% for the ordinary worker ?
    Why did the great reformer Ruairi not end the practice of the top earners in the country paying an average rate of tax of 6% by the use of tax write offs and acc. capital depreciation ???
    As stated FF = FG =Labour. Right wing parties.
    This model has shown to be flawed hence the mess we are in.
    By the way what is labours current tax policy ?
    If you have no policy you do not offend anyone. Oh isnt it great to be populist.

    the 12.5% stimulated investment, foreign investment which created jobs for you and me. The free 3rd level education was an added bonus for companies and great for us. Really this is basic stuff.

    It doesnt matter whether it was socialist, it mattered whether it worked


  • #21
    Robert Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Robert Dublin


    sensibleken wrote: »
    the 12.5% stimulated investment, foreign investment which created jobs for you and me. The free 3rd level education was an added bonus for companies and great for us. Really this is basic stuff.

    It doesnt matter whether it was socialist, it mattered whether it worked
    The Labour party holds itself out to be a socialist party. No one knows if this is the case as Labour does not seem to have a policy on anything apart from Liz McManus who believes in having more Female Td's and then announces her retirement at the next election because of this and looks to have her son nominated for gender balance. I mean this is basic stuff.
    Every business in the country was allowded this 12.5% corporation tax rate whether it was a company employing 1 person engaged in property speculation and again why should such property speculation entities walk on the back of the ordinary worker.W
    Why did the great reformer Ruairi not claw back / restrict the huge tax write off's for the wealthy in this country. My point being Labour is as right wing as FF and at the next election we could find ourselves with a FF/ Labour government.
    By the way free education was started in this country by Donnacha O Malley in the 1960s.
    It should be nothing short of an embarrassement for any party that it took
    until then to bring in free 3rd level as I agree that it will create a better future. By the way What is Labours policy with regard to the reintroduction of fees ?? Do we Know ??


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  • #22
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Great, vote in extremists with no experience.

    If the tax breaks by Ruairi Quinn youre refering to are the reduction in the corporation tax to 12.5%, the single most important factor in stimulating foreign direct investment. Along with the free 3rd level education, also a Quinn initiative, then more of that please!

    Maybe Quinn brining the General Government Balance from a deficit of 2.1% in 1995 to a surplus of 1.1% in 1997 was also a bad thing

    Aye and Quinn promised all the multinationals he would support their non-union policy. All the corporations who came in in the Quinn era are non-union. Anyway building an economy on FDI was completely unsustainable. It was always going to leave as soon as cheaper markets opened up like in Poland.


  • #23
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    sensibleken wrote: »
    the 12.5% stimulated investment, foreign investment which created jobs for you and me. The free 3rd level education was an added bonus for companies and great for us. Really this is basic stuff.

    It doesnt matter whether it was socialist, it mattered whether it worked

    There is far too much yankee finance capital in Ireland as it is. We need to diversify from it rather than constantly trying to kiss corporate arse like Quinn.


  • #24
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    McDougal wrote: »
    There is far too much yankee finance capital in Ireland as it is. We need to diversify from it rather than constantly trying to kiss corporate arse like Quinn.

    If you have all the answers I would love to hear them, and I would also like to hear which parties policies support them


  • #25
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    sensibleken wrote: »
    If you have all the answers I would love to hear them, and I would also like to hear which parties policies support them

    I'm all for developing Irish resources. Nationalise all our oil and gas and explore for more fields. Use the oil and gas for the benifit of the people not for corporate profits. Tell the Spanish, French and EU to get stuffed and build a fishing fleet and start exporting hundreds of millions worth of fish every year. Leave the euro and devalue the punt. Encourage indigineously owned industry like Finland did with nokia and Netherlands with Phillips. The problem with the American corporations is that they repatriate all their profits. With an indigineous company the profits stay in Ireland.


  • #26
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    the bottom line is still that the alternative to a FF Taoiseach is a FG one

    its just maths really at this point

    voting for anyone else will not lead to a change

    a Government without FF or FG is nigh on impossible given current vote share and candidate numbers


  • #27
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    McDougal wrote: »
    I'm all for developing Irish resources. Nationalise all our oil and gas and explore for more fields. Use the oil and gas for the benifit of the people not for corporate profits. Tell the Spanish, French and EU to get stuffed and build a fishing fleet and start exporting hundreds of millions worth of fish every year. Leave the euro and devalue the punt. Encourage indigineously owned industry like Finland did with nokia and Netherlands with Phillips. The problem with the American corporations is that they repatriate all their profits. With an indigineous company the profits stay in Ireland.

    Well im all for nationalising corrib, but I dont think you understand how EU trade works.
    Yes they take a lot of fish, in return we get farming subsidies. This is to ensure we dont become reliant on a fish based economy, over fish it and f*ck ourselves again.

    Beside which. If we leave the EU most of the money we make will be from exports, which will not be as favoured as exports from EU countries, therefore there will be less of a market for them, therefore we will not be able to sell as much fish.

    leaving the euro will mess us up even more. It wasnt the euro that got us into this mess so devaluing a new punt would not fix the actual problems (ie the price of investment) this is why zimbabwe is not a booming economy since devaluing its currency.

    I think every party says they want to encourage indiginous industry. the specifics are. strange you chose Nokia as an example considering they lobbied the Finish government to introduce laws allowing them to electronically surveillance their own employees.

    so who do you intend to vote for?


  • #28
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Well im all for nationalising corrib, but I dont think you understand how EU trade works.
    Yes they take a lot of fish, in return we get farming subsidies. This is to ensure we dont become reliant on a fish based economy, over fish it and f*ck ourselves again.

    Beside which. If we leave the EU most of the money we make will be from exports, which will not be as favoured as exports from EU countries, therefore there will be less of a market for them, therefore we will not be able to sell as much fish.

    leaving the euro will mess us up even more. It wasnt the euro that got us into this mess so devaluing a new punt would not fix the actual problems (ie the price of investment) this is why zimbabwe is not a booming economy since devaluing its currency.

    I think every party says they want to encourage indiginous industry. the specifics are. strange you chose Nokia as an example considering they lobbied the Finish government to introduce laws allowing them to electronically surveillance their own employees.

    so who do you intend to vote for?

    Even non-EU members have free trade with the EU. And the euro and ECB interest rates played a huge role in our crash.

    I'll vote for whoever is on the left and anti-EU


  • #29
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    McDougal wrote: »
    Even non-EU members have free trade with the EU. And the euro and ECB interest rates played a huge role in our crash.

    you dont even have to go that far...some countries are in the EU but not part of EMU


  • #30
    Robert Dublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭Robert Dublin


    McDougal wrote: »
    Even non-EU members have free trade with the EU. And the euro and ECB interest rates played a huge role in our crash.

    I'll vote for whoever is on the left and anti-EU

    So its a Nil pointe for labour then


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  • #31
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    Robert Dublin wrote: »
    So its a Nil pointe for labour then

    Not even a transfer for those sell outs


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