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Why not bring back milk bottles?

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Comments

  • #62
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    monument wrote: »
    There's a few things here:

    The weight of the "heavy" empty containers is likely to be minimal extra compared to the weight of a truck or van. And these journeys are been made anyway. Less fuel is still being used on the return journey.

    Every extra gramme of weight adds to the fuel used. It may not be noticeable on one journey but over the space of a year it will add up.
    You also don't seem to be taking into account of the transport of the plastic bottles -- even if these very light empty, extra journeys are needed.

    The plastic bottle will be need to get to the dairy, but it will be in bulk not small loads from several points of origin. When finished the bottle will be sent for recycling, most recycling is done from kerb side or when people are doing other journeys.


  • #63
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    3DataModem wrote: »
    The sterilization of milk containers is not trivial. Unrefrigerated milk exposed to air goes bad really really fast. The idea that people can be trusted to steam sterilise their bottles before reuse is crazy. Very few would do it, and lots of people would get sick.
    I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. Why the need for steam sterilisation? A decent wash with warm, soapy water will kill most contaminants. Unless you've purposely left a milk-filled container at room temperature for an extended period of time such that a microbial culture is caked within, I don’t think there’s cause for serious concern.

    To be honest though, I think this is one of the main reasons why the re-use of containers has been phased out in this country – people are absolutely obsessed with (and often misinformed about) contamination. Although this goes out the window (of course) where alcohol consumption is concerned.


  • #64
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Every extra gramme of weight adds to the fuel used. It may not be noticeable on one journey but over the space of a year it will add up.

    It may add up, but not to much.

    Del2005 wrote: »
    The plastic bottle will be need to get to the dairy, but it will be in bulk not small loads from several points of origin. When finished the bottle will be sent for recycling, most recycling is done from kerb side or when people are doing other journeys.

    Bulk or not, it's still extra journeys

    And much of it still ends up in landfill rather than being recycled.


  • #65
    SirPeter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 39 ✭SirPeter


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Every extra gramme of weight adds to the fuel used. It may not be noticeable on one journey but over the space of a year it will add up.



    The plastic bottle will be need to get to the dairy, but it will be in bulk not small loads from several points of origin. When finished the bottle will be sent for recycling, most recycling is done from kerb side or when people are doing other journeys.

    How about some reallty clever thinking, and deliver Milk in electric vehicles powered by wind power.

    Hmm, of course then how wuold you deliver your milk if the wind hadn't been blowing when the recharge was needed......

    The fact is we, as a society, value convenience more than "being green". "disposable" milk containers are more convenient than glass bottles, and in some ways are more practical too as they are less likely to break if they are dropped.

    While some of us might value being "green" more than convenience, the fact is the majority will only opt for being "green" if it's more convenient or cheaper than the alternatives.


  • #66
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    SirPeter wrote: »
    How about some reallty clever thinking, and deliver Milk in electric vehicles powered by wind power.

    Not that clever really as it was being done up until the mid-1970s. In a previous life I owned a Johnston Mooney & O'Brien battery powered bread van. Premier Dairies also had battery powered delivery vans back then as well - quiet, pollution free (at a street level anyway) and efficient. Back then mid-1960s/mid 1970's much of the goods deliveries from local stations were still horse drawn. You may laugh at this now but that was back when you could go to your local railway station and send virtually anything to anywhere - parcels, luggage etc.etc...These days trying to send a parcel from one side of the country to the other is a maze of couriers and fly-by-night hackers. Well off topic - sorrY. :D

    http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/environment-geography/transport/20th-century-transport-in/electricbattery-powered-v/index.xml


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  • #67
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Discussion of wind energy moved here.


  • #68
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    One reason for the disappearance of glass bottles in urban areas was because the local scangers used to constantly smash/steal them

    Another was that up until a couple of decades most towns had a local dairy and the bottles werent been transported over great distances.Nowadays its more centralised with regional/national and crossborder distribution.


  • #69
    PaulGogartyTD
    Company Representative Posts: 115 Verified rep ✭PaulGogartyTD


    Might have been viable if the previous administration didn't oversee the dismantling of the Irish Glass Bottle facility in Ringsend. And look what we got in return


  • #70
    Patri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 330 ✭✭Patri


    PaulGogartyTD wrote: »
    Might have been viable if the previous administration didn't oversee the dismantling of the Irish Glass Bottle facility in Ringsend. And look what we got in return

    Just like the greens went into power, and look what we got in return.

    For shame!


  • #71
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Home delivery / collection is not needed, that's not the way it works else where...
    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    One reason for the disappearance of glass bottles in urban areas was because the local scangers used to constantly smash/steal them

    Another was that up until a couple of decades most towns had a local dairy and the bottles werent been transported over great distances.Nowadays its more centralised with regional/national and crossborder distribution.

    Not sure about milk, but for softdrinks and beer the US, Germany and others use retail collection for glass and hard reusable plastic bottles.

    Bottles are not the only option -- these's also things like Sainsbury's milk bags.
    PaulGogartyTD wrote: »
    Might have been viable if the previous administration didn't oversee the dismantling of the Irish Glass Bottle facility in Ringsend. And look what we got in return

    Paul, there's loads of things the Green Party are proposing under the "Green economy" that these is no support for at the moment. The same goes for recycling -- there was very little infrastructure a few years ago.


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  • #72
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    monument wrote: »
    Bottles are not the only option -- these's also things like Sainsbury's milk bags.

    I don't see much difference between this and a plastic bottle or tetra pack.


  • #73
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I don't see much difference between this and a plastic bottle or tetra pack.

    Far less packaging is used. Although I don't know that much about it and I'm not advocating it as much as saying there are other options to look at.


  • #74
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,298 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    PaulGogartyTD wrote: »
    Might have been viable if the previous administration didn't oversee the dismantling of the Irish Glass Bottle facility in Ringsend. And look what we got in return
    Is this not the same administration your party propped up this time around? This is why I take so little comfort, nor have any faith in any members of the so called "green" party in this country. So yea, like Patri wrote, look what we got in return.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #75
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Patri wrote: »
    Just like the greens went into power, and look what we got in return.

    For shame!
    Wibbs wrote: »
    Is this not the same administration your party propped up this time around? This is why I take so little comfort, nor have any faith in any members of the so called "green" party in this country. So yea, like Patri wrote, look what we got in return.
    Folks, this is not a discussion on the performance of the Green Party. Stay on-topic please.


  • #76
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,620 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Recently back from a holiday where I witnessed Milk vending machines in use in Lljubjana in Slovenia. No bigger than a typical Coca Cola vending machine, use your own bottle, insert your euro* and get your milk. Certainly do-able.

    (* didn't see the actual price.)

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  • #77
    positron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭positron


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I don't see much difference between this and a plastic bottle or tetra pack.

    See the link that was posted.
    The company estimates that by switching from bottles to bags, it could save up to 1,400 tons of packaging.

    That's Saisbury's alone. And they are only just one of the five or so major players in the UK! This and other initiatives UK super markets are adopting is really commendable, from a sustainability point of view.


  • #78
    positron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭positron


    Sleepy wrote: »
    Recently back from a holiday where I witnessed Milk vending machines in use in Lljubjana in Slovenia. No bigger than a typical Coca Cola vending machine, use your own bottle, insert your euro* and get your milk. Certainly do-able.

    (* didn't see the actual price.)

    Thanks for this - just goes to show that a "milk vending machine" is indeed a very practical option despite disbelievers! :)

    Here's a on installing milk vending machines at schools across US:

    http://www.nutritionexplorations.org/sfs/schoolmilk_vending.asp

    May be a good way to train our future citizens to the vending machine concept! :)


  • #79
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,620 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    What fascinated me was that they were on-street machines rather than installed in some high-end supermarket!

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  • #80
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    positron wrote: »
    See the link that was posted.

    That's Saisbury's alone. And they are only just one of the five or so major players in the UK! This and other initiatives UK super markets are adopting is really commendable, from a sustainability point of view.

    No where on the Sainsbury's site does it say that these are recyclable. You save 75% on the material, yet dump 100% of it.:confused: Plastic bottles and Tetra packs are recyclable.


  • #81
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,120 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Del2005 wrote: »
    No where on the Sainsbury's site does it say that these are recyclable. You save 75% on the material, yet dump 100% of it.:confused: Plastic bottles and Tetra packs are recyclable.

    :confused:

    Polyethylene is very much so recyclable. Although it's worth nothing that as with everything it depends on each waste collector -- but any if something can't be recycle in one area now, that can change.

    The great thing about the idea of milk bags is that they can be deployed in our retail systems without massive changes. Without the need for returning bottles, plastic or glass. And without retailers, distributors or manufactures having to change anything massively. They save on waste straight way -- with those who recycle and those who don't! And these could be put into smalls corner stores just as much as large supermarkets.

    A system of plastic and/or glass bottle returns would still be beneficial for sales of smaller amounts of milk, as well as for soft drinks and alcohol (ie for shops, bars, cafes, restaurants, canteens, vending machines etc).

    What's often forgotten is that recycling is at the lower end of the waste pyramid:

    Waste_Hierarchy.svg_-300x163.png


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  • #82
    positron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭positron


    Del2005 wrote: »
    You save 75% on the material, yet dump 100% of it.:confused:

    Even if this was the case, that's a straight 75% saving, which is nothing short of amazing! :)


  • #83
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    positron wrote: »
    Even if this was the case, that's a straight 75% saving, which is nothing short of amazing! :)


    So 100% waste is better then recycling.:confused::confused:

    What's the problem with Tetra Pak? They are made from paper, plastic and aluminium and has a recycling system in place. Paper and aluminium are easily recycled and is paper, which is made from managed forests, not better then a plastic bag?


  • #84
    positron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭positron


    Del2005 wrote: »
    So 100% waste is better then recycling.:confused::confused:

    Well, yes in the above context. Let's talk some examples.

    Imagine ShopX sells 100 lts of milk, in 100 plastic bottles - say over all 1 kg of plastic. Some of that will get recycled by consumers, a lot of it will end up in landfills. Say 40% ends up in landfills - so that's 400 gms of plastic.

    Now ShopX switches to plastic bags. 100 lts of milk sold, in 100 plastic bags - which takes 75% less pastic - so that's 250 gms of plastic. Now if ALL of that ends up in landfills - it's still only 250 gms of plastic, compared to 400 gms in the earlier scenario.

    And its easy to imagine that if 60% recycles milk cans, the same 60% is more than likely to recycle the bags too - so realistically, by switching to bags you are potentially taking out a large percentage of plastic from the environment.


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