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  • #362
    Pigwidgeon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,590 ✭✭✭Pigwidgeon


    Novella wrote: »
    It's easy for the more active posters to say that everything is grand though! When you've been accepted into a circle, and people become your friends IRL etc., it's so simple to forget what it's like to be on the outside looking in.

    I'm not trying to put anyone on the defensive here! All I am saying is that sometimes in this forum, things can get a tiny bit too "Facebook-y", y'know in-jokes and this is a public forum, it's not msn with your best friend.

    I agree with you Novella, I'd be a pretty regular poster here, and even to me sometimes, because I'm not overly friends with anyone IRL, it does seem a bit cliquey. That'd only be the odd time though, 90% of the time I think everyone here is welcoming and tries to be friendly to all posters.


  • #363
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    When I first posted here, I posted in the 'Please allow me to introduce myself...' thread and I still remember Aoibheann and how amazingly friendly and lovely she was, and I thought, "Wow, nicest forum ever" and that kinda made me feel okay to post in other threads. 'Cause I didn't know her at all, but she made a huge effort to be welcoming and that meant a lot.

    I know people do still welcome newbies in that thread now, I just think it'd be cool to see more of that. More welcoming, more <3 everywhere! And I guess if we all just made a wee bit more effort to maybe drop into that thread and let people know that we do notice them, and we do want them here, no one would ever, ever get the impression that they're eavesdropping on a private conversation!


  • #364
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    Yeh, I've only been posting regularly again for a few months and there are times when the Den is full of people talking about what they've been writing to each on other on facebook and while that's annoying, it's only natural when so many poster know each other IRL and I'm not going to be like 'Oh people know each other already, run awaaaaaaay!!'. Most of the time it's easy to participate if you just make the effort, you can't really expect people to come to you.

    I was trying to find a way to say C&H is penetrable without it sounding vaguely dirty. I got nothing...


  • #365
    Konata
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,164 ✭✭✭Konata


    The thing is though, C&H IS what it is BECAUSE of in-jokes and actually knowing other posters and the like. If it was just different people posting in here every day, that sense of community would never exist. The fact that we have regulars binds us all together and makes each of us feel less like strangers. I don't think that in jokes etc. should be complained about because that's a bit ridiculous... yes, it's a public forum but at the end of the day, the great thing about C&H is that it IS like an MSN conversation with a bunch of friends.

    Again, I agree with welcoming the noobs etc. etc. but it's the same as any friendship in life - you're not besties straight away, these things take time.

    EDIT: Novella, your suggestion about posting more often in the welcom thread is a good, practical way of making sure new people feel noticed. Good idea :) And Namlub, I'll just point out that the vast majority of posters here were friends on FB long before meeting IRL :p In fact, many of us talk frequently on FB WITHOUT knowing each other IRL.


  • #366
    Davidius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    If I wasn't a regular user I might feel a bit put off posting here due to the fact that most discussion as of late seems to be based around 'banter'. I wouldn't really see an opening to engage in a conversation and I'd probably feel like I was being presumptuous or intrusive if I tried to join in.

    I think there might be less of a 'hook' to get newer users to start posting. It wasn't as bad earlier in the year as less people knew each other. It's a lot easier to join-in when most people are in a similar position to you, especially if there's more serious debate or discussion going on. Lately a large chunk of posters are fairly familiar with each other and the bit o' debating seems to have taken a bit of a sideline so I can see it being hard to get noticed without a large degree of persistence.


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  • #367
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    Hotaru wrote: »
    The thing is though, C&H IS what it is BECAUSE of in-jokes and actually knowing other posters and the like. If it was just different people posting in here every day, that sense of community would never exist. The fact that we have regulars binds us all together and makes each of us feel less like strangers. I don't think that in jokes etc. should be complained about because that's a bit ridiculous... yes, it's a public forum but at the end of the day, the great thing about C&H is that it IS like an MSN conversation with a bunch of friends.

    Again, I agree with welcoming the noobs etc. etc. but it's the same as any friendship in life - you're not besties straight away, these things take time.

    And I do agree with you in the sense that being regulars does bind us together etc., and I love the forum, I do and the regulars are amazing. What I'm getting at is that it would be a pity for anyone to miss out on that amazing-ness 'cause they were put off by things being too cliquey!


  • #368
    Aoibheann
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭Aoibheann


    Novella wrote: »
    When I first posted here, I posted in the 'Please allow me to introduce myself...' thread and I still remember Aoibheann and how amazingly friendly and lovely she was, and I thought, "Wow, nicest forum ever" and that kinda made me feel okay to post in other threads. 'Cause I didn't know her at all, but she made a huge effort to be welcoming and that meant a lot.

    I know people do still welcome newbies in that thread now, I just think it'd be cool to see more of that. More welcoming, more <3 everywhere! And I guess if we all just made a wee bit more effort to maybe drop into that thread and let people know that we do notice them, and we do want them here, no one would ever, ever get the impression that they're eavesdropping on a private conversation!


    Haha, I was about to come on here and rant about how I genuinely try to be nice to anyone posting here whether I know them or not (and I know far too many!) but I see that's been addressed. :P Nice to be remembered for doing something decent! <3

    I definitely think we could all do with posting more in the welcome thread. I don't necessarily agree that it's clique-y here. Sure, people are friends - but they do all try to include everyone else when they see them posting. However, I do think that a lot of people (myself included a lot of the time) don't really bother to check the intros thread, and I'll make much more of an effort in future! :)


  • #369
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    Hotaru wrote: »
    And Namlub, I'll just point out that the vast majority of posters here were friends on FB long before meeting IRL :p In fact, many of us talk frequently on FB WITHOUT knowing each other IRL.
    Oh I know, those two things weren't meant to be related :o Sorry if it sounded like I was getting at anyone in particular by mentioning the fb thing, that was just the first (and one of the only) examples that sprang to mind where teh n00bz might feel a bit out of things...


  • #370
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Novella wrote: »
    I actually brought it up because a poster said to me that they found the forum "cliquey", and I figured if one person felt like that, others more than likely do too.
    It seems to go with social forums, and it's really hard to get the mix right (quoting experience from elsewhere here).

    It's not really fair to restrict regular users / attempt to eliminate the banter, etc. ... and, if you do, the forum tends to lose the very flavour which makes it a pleasant experience for everyone, regulars, semi-regulars and newbies alike.

    It's also worth remembering that cliques very often exist in the eye of the beholder ... the word clique has the inherent meaning of seeking to exclude, but usually there is no such intent, and all that really exists is a bunch of people who know one another well, and that can appear off-putting to newcomers.

    Some possibly helpful hints (again, from experience elsewhere):

    - as already said, the introduction thread can be very useful, a warm welcome there is a damn good start

    - if you spot a newcomer on the main threads, take a few seconds to respond, even if it's only to say "hi, welcome along!"

    - a small suggestion for the mods, perhaps? ... while 'tis a bit of craic to change the name of the Den from time to time, it can make it unrecognisable to a newcomer as to its actual purpose. Perhaps leaving "(Off-topic chat)" in brackets permanently after whatever title is in use might help? OT chat threads are familiar to many from other forums on Boards and elsewhere, and are often the easiest way to dip a toe in the water.

    Um, there was something else, but I've forgotten! :o

    It will come back to me at some stage ...


  • #371
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Novella wrote: »
    Tbh, sometimes IRC is really daunting. 'Cause it's used by regulars, there are a lot of in jokes and it is easy to feel left out.

    I'm not having a go at anyone. I love this forum, and IRC is usually really fun, and I was made feel really welcome here but then again, I had my blog and I sorta got to know C&H-er's through that and their blogs, more than the actual forum.

    It's just so important to be aware of noobz, and not let their posts become lost in a sea of regulars having a chat. That's all.

    I started with IRC, not the actual forum (MavisDavis invited me to join before there was a password because there were many mathsy people) and it was so easy to feel accepted tbh. It's an easy way into C&H because you get to know the people on IRC very quickly.


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  • #372
    OopsyDaisy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭OopsyDaisy


    I think everyone here is unbelievably accepting and welcoming!

    I've only been here a few months like, and when I first joined, I felt so welcome and felt I was really listened to.

    I don't think anyone purposefully ignores any new people, sure everyone gets ignored sometimes, but I think everyone here is really good at including everyone.

    The posting more in welcome thread idea is good though, I don't tend to post in there much myself, I think it's cos I'm still quite new, and I feel I'm not worthy to be welcoming others or something :o That didn't make much sense, and now I'm rambling :P

    But what I'm saying is that there is a tendency for people to talk more to people they know irl, or on facebook, but I don't think anyone here is unwelcoming, or that C&H as a whole is a scary or daunting place to post :)


  • #373
    Jackobyte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,321 ✭✭✭Jackobyte


    On the clique-feel to the forum, I think us younger users who aren't in college are more likely to feel excluded. While the older users are in college and most known at least one other user who attends the same college, us younger ones know no-one and are more likely to be unable to attend the meet-ups. I don't think anything can be done about it, it's just the way the forum is, but it is something I have noticed.


  • #374
    Lawliet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,761 ✭✭✭Lawliet


    Speaking as someone who only discovered this place a few days ago, I don't think it's very cliquey at all, sure there's in jokes and people tend to converse with their friends more so than the noobs, but that's just normal. Trying to include new posters is a problem every forum has; I've seen places a lot worse than this where the posters didn't even have the excuse of knowing each other IRL


  • #375
    Sentineil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Sentineil


    What makes this forum difficult to join into is the lack of discussion.

    As it is every thread is either general banter between friends or just another list thread.

    Looking at the front page you'll see the most active topics don't have any discussion value at all.
    People either list what music/show they like or leave a one liner like "I have a 'sadface'".

    For someone trying to break into the clique (which is blatant), there really is no opportunity.
    If there were more discussion threads though, it would give newcomers like myself a way in, and would also break up the clique a bit as you'll no doubt have differing opinions on certain issues.

    The best threads that I've seen here have focused on a central issue which people then discussed, like the Drinking age and Religion threads.

    More discussion less spam I say.


  • #376
    jefreywithonef
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭jefreywithonef


    Jackobyte wrote: »
    On the clique-feel to the forum, I think us younger users who aren't in college are more likely to feel excluded. While the older users are in college and most known at least one other user who attends the same college, us younger ones know no-one and are more likely to be unable to attend the meet-ups. I don't think anything can be done about it, it's just the way the forum is, but it is something I have noticed.


    It's just the general demographics of the place being a split between college students and wains secondary school people. The college students partake in discussions on college-related things like electives, accommodation, etc. whereas the secondary school people can't really contribute much for obvious reasons. I haven't seen any exclusion based on age in the topic-specific threads on drink, religion, etc. so I don't think it's intentional.


    On a personal note I've never met any C&H-ers 'in real life' but don't really consider it an obstruction to joining in and whatnot. It's been said but most people here are grand and rather receptive to everyone.

    On a similar note to something Lawliet said above, I think there are loads of posts that are just too vague and without wanting to sound like a total dick, are just annoying to read. Elaboration ftw.


  • #377
    Davidius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    That is one thing actually. I think people should steer away from ambiguous posts about their mood in the argh and yaaah threads. I don't mean to offend anybody but I'll be honest when I say I'm a little irritated by posts that are just ":mad:", ":)" or just vague sentiments that nobody understands the context of.

    The thing is posts like that just seem to be bait for other posters to respond to. If you don't mind people knowing the reason behind your post you should elaborate to start with.

    I understand that some users don't exactly want people to know their business but do want to vent a bit by expressing their frustration, maybe make note that you don't feel much like discussing it. I would argue that it might be best to keep it to a blog but I'm trying to be realistic here and to be fair I don't have the best posting habits myself.


  • #378
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    Is C&H cliquey? Yeah, it probably is a bit. But it's only natural that a forum where a lot of posters know each other will have a few in-jokes here and there, and occasionally people will talk more with people they know than with n00bs.

    However, I don't think anyone has ever been made feel unwelcome here. Even with this "clique" people are always as welcoming as possible to new posters. Over the past few months, we've had loads of new posters who came here and integrated really well; OopsyDaisy, Noel2k9, DingosAteMyBaby and Midnight_EG are just a few of the names that come to mind here.

    If you make an effort to talk to people, people will respond and make an effort to get to know you in return.

    Which brings me tio my next point....
    Sentineil wrote: »
    What makes this forum difficult to join into is the lack of discussion.

    As it is every thread is either general banter between friends or just another list thread.

    Looking at the front page you'll see the most active topics don't have any discussion value at all.
    People either list what music/show they like or leave a one liner like "I have a 'sadface'".

    For someone trying to break into the clique (which is blatant), there really is no opportunity.
    If there were more discussion threads though, it would give newcomers like myself a way in, and would also break up the clique a bit as you'll no doubt have differing opinions on certain issues.

    The best threads that I've seen here have focused on a central issue which people then discussed, like the Drinking age and Religion threads.

    More discussion less spam I say.

    If you want more discussion, start a thread. Don't sit around waiting for others. If you have an idea for a thread that you think will improve the forum and help discussion flow, go ahead and start it.


  • #379
    Sentineil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Sentineil


    So you expect new people to jump-start discussion with new threads in order to include themselves?

    That hardly seems reasonable, especially considering the intended demographic for C&H is teens, which often come hand in hand with shyness.

    The responsibility of this forum's direction relies on Moderators and regulars.
    Although the people here are pleasant and friendly, the environment created by banter and in-jokes doesn't accommodate newcomers.


  • #380
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    Sentineil wrote: »
    So you expect new people to jump-start discussion with new threads in order to include themselves?

    That hardly seems reasonable, especially considering the intended demographic for C&H is teens, which often come hand in hand with shyness.

    The responsibility of this forum's direction relies on Moderators and regulars.
    Although the people here are pleasant and friendly, the environment created by banter and in-jokes doesn't accommodate newcomers.

    But it's slightly unreasonable to expect mods or regulars to be responsible for starting the threads you want to see, no? They're not mind readers. You're entitled to your opinion but it's not really constructive to say that you don't like how banter-centric existing threads are, yet you don't want to start any threads you'd find more interesting yourself.


  • #381
    Sentineil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Sentineil


    I'm not talking about threads that I want to see, just any sort of discussion thread at all. Not everyone will get involved, but what's a new person more likely to respond to:

    A) 911 was an inside job (conspiracy lol!)
    or
    B):(

    ?


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  • #382
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Sentineil wrote: »
    So you expect new people to jump-start discussion with new threads in order to include themselves?

    I think it's reasonable to expect someone new to make an effort to contribute something back to the forum, just as it's reasonable to welcome someone who is enthusiastic about getting involved in other discussions.
    Sentineil wrote: »
    That hardly seems reasonable, especially considering the intended demographic for C&H is teens, which often come hand in hand with shyness.

    Being a teenager does not equate to being shy, just as being in your 20s does not equate to being automatically confident and chatty. See my above point in relation to the word "reasonable".
    Sentineil wrote: »
    The responsibility of this forum's direction relies on Moderators and regulars.
    Although the people here are pleasant and friendly, the environment created by banter and in-jokes doesn't accommodate newcomers.

    Have you searched through the archives Neil?

    There are threads about art, photography, music, sports, reading, cookery, baking and blogging/writing.

    There are threads for shopping (things I'd like to buy/things I have bought).

    There are social discussions in The Den, Yeeaaaaaahhhh, Aaaaargghhhh, "I Bumped Into You Earlier", "Know your fellow posters", "Pet hates", and the Irish discussion thread, "An Seomra Dorcha".

    There are entertainment threads (Hilarious Pictures; Hilarious Videos; Computer Games).

    There are informative interviews with regular posters, "In The Play-Pen".

    We've had debates about alcohol and drug use, abortion, Oxegen, depression, sex, sexuality, social stereotypes, tattoos, religion and even the recession. Those debates are still open, and are only temporarily locked to allow clean-ups when trouble breaks out.

    There's something here for everyone, from the "introductions & welcomes" thread at the very top of the forum to a thread on silly chat-up lines.

    You'll find that many of these were started by new posters who became regulars, and many that were started by or suggested by the various moderators. There's even this very thread, for open feedback about the forum itself, which you'll find on very, very few forums. I honestly can't see how it could be any more open and welcoming than it already is.


  • #383
    Sentineil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Sentineil


    Tommy, I think our ideas of what a discussion is are vastly different.

    Me spamming links to youtube videos and you spamming links to more youtube videos does not equate to discussion. The most you'll get is an "I like them too."
    A list thread like shopping, pictures, videos and photos will never foster any discussion either.

    Simply listing all the threads that happen to be around won't turn them in debates or discussions. Nor will "I bumped into you earlier" ever become a good thread for a newcomer.

    "Yeahh" and "Arghhh" never leads to anything other than a few related posts either.

    And as a new member am I expected to search through the archives to find old completed discussions which I can necro? That seems absurd.

    Many of the threads that were started by new posters also seem to be from when this was a new forum.
    Being a teenager does not equate to being shy, just as being in your 20s does not equate to being automatically confident and chatty. See my above point in relation to the word "reasonable".

    Thanks for clearing that up, after exaggerating my point so it can be addressed that is. You shouldn't use a straw man in a thread intended for constructive criticism.
    Being a teenager -> and active on internet forums -> OFTEN (note: not always) equals demure/nerdy.

    Starting new threads and especially on sensitive topics is not something a lot of new members would be willing to do. When there's a clique like C&H has there's always the chance of dog piling and piggybacking. (Whether intentional or not).


  • #384
    Konata
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,164 ✭✭✭Konata


    Well sitting here complaining about it isn't going to make much difference is it? The reason why many of the regulars DON'T start discussion threads is because they've been around for the vast majority of the discussions thus far. They've expressed their view point, they've discussed, they've trawled through other viewpoints etc. etc. and then the thread generally fizzles off because everyone has discussed it as far as they can.

    It often takes the incentive of a new person (who hasn't been around for past discussions) to begin a thread on a discussion topic. Personally, I find that the more new people there are on the forum, the more diverse viewpoints we get. Therefore, "oldies" are enticed to enter into the discussion for a variety of reasons - new ideas, new arguments, different take on the topic or whatever.

    When you think about, why would I sit back and start a thread on homosexuality or abortion or religion or whatnot when I've already expressed my thoughts on the issue only a few weeks or months ago?

    As a newcomer, you're NOT expected to search through the forums for old threads - it's much better to make a new one. We see users come and go from this forum all the time so there's always a group of people who haven't discussed it before - and as I already mentioned, regulars will usually join in too if they spot something new or interesting. New users post new threads on various forums on boards all the time - I don't see how anyone whould think you have to be one of the "in crowd" to do so.

    You mention that many of the threads started by new posters seem to be from when the forum was new. Well, yes, that may be true but many of the threads on C&H were started by posters WHEN they were new too. By that I mean that they're regualrs now, with high post counts, but they were new to C&H when they began a thread - that may have been a year ago, it may have been months ago, it may have been weeks ago. We have regulars who've been here since day one, and ones who've been here for only a month or two. You'd be surprised by how recent many of the regulars are.

    So you see that even the majority of regulars haven't been here forever. When I joined C&H there were many different posters posting on a daily basis to the ones you see now - even the "usuals" have a fairly high turnover rate.

    I agree with you regarding the list threads - I'm not a big fan of them myself. The exception to that would be "Soundtrack to Your Angst". Yes, I go on there many times and not listen to anyone else's tracks but so many other times I do listen to them, and I have discovered new music by way of this. I know I'm not the only one too. I don't always reply to the video but that doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed it or found it useful.

    You complain about finding it had to "break" into the forum. Well the Yeaaaaah and Arrrrrrgh threads are the best place for that imo. If you want people to learn about you, here's the place to do it. It's also a great spot for getting advice or assistance - you yourself have helpfully replied to a post or 2 in the arrrrgh thread as I recall. People appreciate that. I've found out tons of information from the yeaaaaah thread in particular - one such situation that comes to mind was soon after I joined the forum and another poster "yeaaaaaah'd" about the IFI showing Evangelion 1.0 and 2.0. I mightn't have come across that event otherwise - and I got to meet my first C&Hers there. Win win.

    In conclusion, I'm not denying that this forum is cliquey. It is, and that's what makes it so familiar and friendly. But we're not a nasty clique - we're one of the most welcoming forums on boards.ie and that's not just me talking. Anyway, I've rambled about that before, the main point of this post was to talk about the threads on C&H and yea, I think I've accomplished that :p

    Also Sentineil, and other newbies, the IRC channel really is a fantastic way to get to talk to other C&Hers. Most of us are on there out of sheer boredom so join us anytime! :D


  • #385
    Sentineil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Sentineil


    I'm going to have to slash your post as there's quite a bit in it and a few separate points which I can't address together.
    Well sitting here complaining about it isn't going to make much difference is it? The reason why many of the regulars DON'T start discussion threads is because they've been around for the vast majority of the discussions thus far. They've expressed their view point, they've discussed, they've trawled through other viewpoints etc. etc. and then the thread generally fizzles off because everyone has discussed it as far as they can.

    Did I get this thread wrong? Is all feedback meant to be super positive so nobody feels bad?
    The issue of newcomers being excluded came up and I offered some insight into why this might be. It seems I offended the clique though :D.

    And trying to pawn off responsibility with "we've talked about everything before" doesn't quite cut it. Fortunately new things happen and become topical everyday. Just today the big news is about Firefighter protection money and a new earth-like planet being discovered. Discussion worthy? Yes.
    It often takes the incentive of a new person (who hasn't been around for past discussions) to begin a thread on a discussion topic. Personally, I find that the more new people there are on the forum, the more diverse viewpoints we get. Therefore, "oldies" are enticed to enter into the discussion for a variety of reasons - new ideas, new arguments, different take on the topic or whatever.

    A lot of new people would find jumping into a new forum and starting a thread to be pretty intimidating. Of course some don't, but there are a lot that do. New people can bring a new perspective and new life to a forum. Having existing threads that they can join into and offer their own view on can help integrate them into the forum and give them a chance to get a feel for the community before they start a thread.

    Oldies shouldn't have to be "enticed" into discussion. They should be encouraging it.
    As a newcomer, you're NOT expected to search through the forums for old threads - it's much better to make a new one. We see users come and go from this forum all the time so there's always a group of people who haven't discussed it before - and as I already mentioned, regulars will usually join in too if they spot something new or interesting. New users post new threads on various forums on boards all the time - I don't see how anyone whould think you have to be one of the "in crowd" to do so.

    Why would I start a discussion thread on say, piracy and DRM, when one look at the front page of this forum says that people here don't discuss. There's not a single thread on the front page with any potential for discussion or debate.
    I agree with you regarding the list threads - I'm not a big fan of them myself. The exception to that would be "Soundtrack to Your Angst". Yes, I go on there many times and not listen to anyone else's tracks but so many other times I do listen to them, and I have discovered new music by way of this. I know I'm not the only one too. I don't always reply to the video but that doesn't mean I haven't enjoyed it or found it useful.

    I'm not bashing "list threads", they can be fun and a good way to learn different people's tastes. The problem I have with them, is that that's all there is in C&H right now.

    This has gotten a bit long so I'll cut it off here. I agree with the rest of what you said anyway.


  • #386
    Konata
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,164 ✭✭✭Konata


    Ah no, I'm not saying all the feedback has to be positive - sure I came in here and complained about people drunk posting only last week :p Probably offended plenty of people too but meh :D I'm just taking your points and expressing my disagreement with some of them.

    I like to think we're all doing something to welcome people and regarding discussion, we have to remember that this is a young adult forum. Yes, there are topics coming up every day and if someone is interested in a current affair, I'd like to think they'd make a thread about it. Otherwise, I assume people don't really care, and fair enough. Each to their own and all that.


  • #387
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Sentineil wrote: »
    Fortunately new things happen and become topical everyday. Just today the big news is about Firefighter protection money and a new earth-like planet being discovered. Discussion worthy? Yes.

    If people are not aware of those things (or if you get the impression that they haven't been given the attention they deserve) then feel free to bring them up. You cannot fault people for not discussing those things of which they are not aware. Neither can you fault regular posters for not reading your mind about the things you find interesting.

    What should you do if you don't feel comfortable starting a new thread about a topic? In that case, mention it in one of the other general threads. If they generate a decent bit of chat the mods will gladly answer requests to have posts merged into a new, dedicated thread.

    We did this last month with a chat that started about driving, road safety and rules of the road. It was very topical, as a result of a number of high-profile incidents around the country, and led to a very good debate.
    Sentineil wrote: »
    A lot of new people would find jumping into a new forum and starting a thread to be pretty intimidating. Of course some don't, but there are a lot that do. New people can bring a new perspective and new life to a forum. Having existing threads that they can join into and offer their own view on can help integrate them into the forum and give them a chance to get a feel for the community before they start a thread.

    See my earlier post, which addresses this exact point. There are many such threads, between the light-hearted ones that dominate the front page today and the more serious ones that can be found on pages 2 and 3 of the forum.
    Sentineil wrote: »
    Oldies shouldn't have to be "enticed" into discussion. They should be encouraging it.

    Many of the "oldies" also post quite regularly in other parts of this website. There are dedicated fora for a plethora of topics, covering almost every legal interest that a person can have.

    It is not fair to assume that people of any age bracket will be more or less likely to start new discussions. I said that earlier, and for some reason you saw fit to dismiss it. It is not fair to put a weight of expectation on a particular bracket of the user-group here. Nobody actively discourages discussion. Many posters, both new and old, do encourage it.

    Some stay, some go, and some only post sporadically. That's down to individual, personal preference. I've always sought to make the appeal of this forum as wide as it could possibly be, and I'm always happy to take constructive feedback when it's offered. I also make myself available to deal with requests, concerns and queries by Private Message. Perhaps some newer posters are not aware of that, but it is true all the same. However, it is the user-base that should define a forum, from jaded veterans to new arrivals and everyone in between. They find something that keeps drawing them back here, or makes them want to invite new members into the group. Those who don't form an attachment to it, for whatever reason, often find something more to their tastes on other forums. They're always welcome to post here (unless they be trollin') and we do welcome back people whenever we get the chance.
    Sentineil wrote: »
    Why would I start a discussion thread on say, piracy and DRM, when one look at the front page of this forum says that people here don't discuss. There's not a single thread on the front page with any potential for discussion or debate.

    The volume of traffic on this forum fluctuates at different times of the year, but we still manage to refresh enough threads to fill the front page every day. Sometimes things can get moved to the second or third pages. All it takes is one more post in those threads to bring them back to the front again. Assuming that an entire forum "does not discuss" based on its front page is something you'll have to find a solution to.
    Sentineil wrote: »
    I'm not bashing "list threads", they can be fun and a good way to learn different people's tastes. The problem I have with them, is that that's all there is in C&H right now.

    Look again. There is a lot more to this forum than just list threads. :)


  • #388
    Sentineil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭Sentineil


    If people are not aware of those things (or if you get the impression that they haven't been given the attention they deserve) then feel free to bring them up. You cannot fault people for not discussing those things of which they are not aware. Neither can you fault regular posters for not reading your mind about the things you find interesting.

    What should you do if you don't feel comfortable starting a new thread about a topic? In that case, mention it in one of the other general threads. If they generate a decent bit of chat the mods will gladly answer requests to have posts merged into a new, dedicated thread.

    We did this last month with a chat that started about driving, road safety and rules of the road. It was very topical, as a result of a number of high-profile incidents around the country, and led to a very good debate.

    Are my posts even needed for this discussion? Your response doesn't seem to have much to do with anything I've said.
    Did you having the "reading your mind" bit already planned and just needed to squeeze it in somewhere?
    I gave examples of two news stories I found on the Google news front page. Two discussion worthy topics, which was in response to the idea that "we've discussed everything", which clearly isn't true.

    New people could ask in existing threads, but the onus shouldn't be on them for starting discussions. There are no discussions at all right now. That's not the fault of new members.

    If there are existing discussions on, not only is it a chance to interact with regulars, it also encourages new and old members to start more discussion threads.
    See my earlier post, which addresses this exact point. There are many such threads, between the light-hearted ones that dominate the front page today and the more serious ones that can be found on pages 2 and 3 of the forum.

    Was you listing all the threads on the forum the post which addresses it? For new members there's very little opportunity for interaction in any of threads here.
    Sure they can post a funny picture they found on reddit or a music video from Youtube, but they won't connect with the community like this. At best they'll get a line or two by way of response and maybe a few thanks.

    Going back to page three will simply find you a dead discussion thread. I don't see how this is beneficial to any new member?
    Many of the "oldies" also post quite regularly in other parts of this website. There are dedicated fora for a plethora of topics, covering almost every legal interest that a person can have.

    It is not fair to assume that people of any age bracket will be more or less likely to start new discussions. I said that earlier, and for some reason you saw fit to dismiss it. It is not fair to put a weight of expectation on a particular bracket of the user-group here. Nobody actively discourages discussion. Many posters, both new and old, do encourage it.

    How is it not fair to assume that younger people will be more reserved when it comes to starting new threads? Are you refuting the idea that shyness is not predominant amongst internet teens? Can I call them digital teens? I think that sounds cooler and captures the culture nicely.

    You might not be actively discouraging discussion, but the tone of the forum certainly does. A new member's first impression of C&H will be that it is for banter and spam. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.

    Even in the Vegetarian thread there seemed to be a mod discouraging debate, which could have lead to an interesting discussion.
    However, it is the user-base that should define a forum, from jaded veterans to new arrivals and everyone in between.

    That's just not true. At all. The regulars are what define a forum. When you think of C&H you'll think of it's members. Those that are active. They steer the forum which is something new members can't do.
    The volume of traffic on this forum fluctuates at different times of the year, but we still manage to refresh enough threads to fill the front page every day. Sometimes things can get moved to the second or third pages. All it takes is one more post in those threads to bring them back to the front again. Assuming that an entire forum "does not discuss" based on its front page is something you'll have to find a solution to.

    What has this got to do with anything that's been said? I haven't questioned the post rate of this forum.
    The basic argument is that new members don't have much opportunity to interact with the clique on a proper medium. I believe that more discussion threads and less spam and list threads will actively encourage new members to join in and become a part of the forum.


  • #389
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    I knew this was exactly what was going to happen - people getting all defensive. It's completely unnecessary. You are being told how the forum appears to a newbie, but dismissing it completely and tbh, in doing so, all you are doing is high-lighting the fact of the argument.

    This forum is friendly, and it is lovely but so many people do end up feeling left out on the sidelines due to the amount of little private jokes etc. You can say that's what makes the forum wonderful... but you're wrong. That's what makes it wonderful for you. For others, it's grating and that needs to be taken into consideration... but I don't think anyone is too bothered and imo, that's kinda sad.


  • #390
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 31,032 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Sentineil wrote: »
    Are my posts even needed for this discussion? Your response doesn't seem to have much to do with anything I've said.

    All constructive responses are welcome in this thread. I'm sorry if you feel my responses don't address what you'd like them to, but I am making every effort to give them the attention they deserve. This thread has been very effective in meeting the needs of the forum before, and I hope it continues to be. I take all feedback seriously, and try my best to use it to improve the quality of this forum. The problem currently under discussion had not been highlighted before now. As such, it could not be addressed. It's being addressed now because it has finally been brought to greater attention.

    Those who use the forum regularly are happy with how it works, and that's why they keep coming back. They were all new once, maybe knowing one or two other posters in real life or from other forums. They've gelled into the forum. From that point of view it would appear posters here (including the moderators and older regulars) are doing a good job.

    The problem being debated is that some new posters have found it difficult to engage with the forum, for various reasons. In your case, Sentineil, the problem is that there are no discussions that capture your attention, and you have not seen fit to begin discussions that would interest you. So far you have been the only person to have given first-hand feedback about this. That is not to say that nobody shares your problem, merely that I have no opinions besides yours to respond to directly. I have to ask, and I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but if there is little about this forum that entices you to post, what makes you want to keep lurking and occasionally posting? Different people use this forum for different reasons, and I'd be very interested in finding out what it is that draws you into this one.
    Sentineil wrote: »
    Did you having the "reading your mind" bit already planned and just needed to squeeze it in somewhere?
    I gave examples of two news stories I found on the Google news front page. Two discussion worthy topics, which was in response to the idea that "we've discussed everything", which clearly isn't true.

    I alluded to "mind-reading" because another poster (who is also relatively new to the forum) made a similar comment shortly before I did. See post #381. I did not plan to "squeeze it in somewhere". Doing so would have suggested that I am approaching this thread with some kind of an agenda, and that really is not the case.

    This post would suggest that you have misquoted Hotaru's post, and as such your issue with the line "we've discussed everything" is not an accurate portrayal of what was said. It misrepresents the point she was making. She made the point that some discussions have died off the front few pages because the regulars had said all they wanted to say about those particular topics. Unless new posters come along with different perspectives and viewpoints, they cannot be kept alive indefinitely.

    I haven't seen anyone suggest we've discussed everything on this forum. I've said it many times before, we actively encourage discussion whenever we can. However, you must remember that this is not the Humanities forum, or the Politics forum, etc. Yes, debate and discussion are very important elements of this forum, but "serious" discourse is not the primary function of C&H. The name of the forum might be an indication of that. Unless a topic is brought up for discussion, it will not just develop its own thread organically.

    For people who don't want to start a new thread, these long-running threads are perfect for introducing a topic:

    Share something you like/find interesting
    The C&H News Thread.
    The Geniuses' Thread
    What do you find beautiful?
    Sentineil wrote: »
    Even in the Vegetarian thread there seemed to be a mod discouraging debate, which could have lead to an interesting discussion.

    That is, once again, a gross misrepresentation of what was going on in that thread. We've had discussions about the merits of various diets before. That most recent thread about vegetarianism was to raise awareness of a particular occasion. My action on that thread was not to discourage debate, but rather to give a warning that excessive trolling, flaming and flame-baiting would not be tolerated. There is a very big difference between what you are suggesting and the actual reality of the situation.
    Novella wrote: »
    I knew this was exactly what was going to happen - people getting all defensive. It's completely unnecessary. You are being told how the forum appears to a newbie, but dismissing it completely and tbh, in doing so, all you are doing is high-lighting the fact of the argument.

    If my responses have come across as overly defensive, then I apologise. Neither have I tried to completely dismiss the feedback. However, I must highlight the words "a newbie". Until we get first-hand feedback from a wider audience, it is difficult to deal with the argument that the issue affects a significant number of people. All we have to go on so far is one poster's direct feedback, and your posts based on a similar issue that arose on another forum (the Ladies' Lounge). Changing the forum based on a potential problem, or because of one unsatisfied poster, is not going to be of benefit to the greater user-base.


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  • #391
    KnifeWRENCH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,148 ✭✭✭✭KnifeWRENCH


    Sentineil wrote: »
    I gave examples of two news stories I found on the Google news front page. Two discussion worthy topics, which was in response to the idea that "we've discussed everything", which clearly isn't true.
    I don't think anyone here ever said "we've discussed everything."
    You want to talk about those issues? Then do so. Nobody is stopping you. I don't see why you're waiting for someone else to come alon g and start that thread for you. The fact that you're a new member shouldn't stop you. There have been threads started by newbies in the past that have gone well and added to the forum; why do you feel like this should be any different?
    New people could ask in existing threads, but the onus shouldn't be on them for starting discussions. There are no discussions at all right now. That's not the fault of new members.

    If ANY member (old or new) wants to discuss something, then I think the onus IS on them tbh. You can't expect regulars to start discussions just for the sake of having a discussion. If a regular wants to discuss something, they start a thread. People respond. That's how forums work and this one is no different.
    Going back to page three will simply find you a dead discussion thread. I don't see how this is beneficial to any new member?
    If you feel like that particular thread is worthy of discussion, bump it. :) I'm sure everyone would be happy to see new/different perspectives on any topic that has been discussed here.
    You might not be actively discouraging discussion, but the tone of the forum certainly does. A new member's first impression of C&H will be that it is for banter and spam. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.
    This is the crux point you're trying to make. And it is certainly a fair one, worthy of discussion.
    All I can say to rebuke it is that other newbies haven't felt that way (or, at least, haven't raised the point before.) and you'll see plenty of replies here (some from regulars, some from relatively new posters) saying that C& H is a welcoming forum.

    C&H is NOT just for banter and spam. If it seems like C&H is like that now, the only way to change that is for more discussions, which you have already proposed. And I can see your point BUT I have to point out again that it is not up to anyone in particular to generate these discussions. It's up to whoever WANTS to generate the discussion to start doing so.

    Even in the Vegetarian thread there seemed to be a mod discouraging debate, which could have lead to an interesting discussion.

    That was not a debate on vegetarianism, it was a thread to highlight World Vegetarian Day. The OP of that thread is vegetarian, as are many posters here, which is why the thread was deemed appropriate for this forum.

    If you want to start a general thread on vegetarianism, be my guest. I'm sure everyone here would be happy to contribute. If you'd rather be more acquainted to this forum before starting threads, PM me; I'd be happy to start that thread. I'm sure other regulars would too. But I just wanna stress that there is no reason why you should feel you can't start a discussion here just because you are a new member. The regulars here won't ignore you or dismiss you just because you're new. They're not like that (if they were, they'd get a stern talking to from the Mods ;) )

    Finally Sentineil, if you'd like to feel more involved with this forum and it's regulars, I'd suggest you read and participate in the Playpen threads. Feel free to add your name to the list to participate (though it's a very long list, so it'll be ages before it gets to you, I'm afraid.) But I think that's the best way to get to know the regulars here and actually feel like part of a community forum and not just a "spam and banter" forum.
    Novella wrote:
    I knew this was exactly what was going to happen - people getting all defensive. It's completely unnecessary. You are being told how the forum appears to a newbie, but dismissing it completely and tbh, in doing so, all you are doing is high-lighting the fact of the argument.
    I don't really think that's fair, Novella. People here are listening and are responding. We may disagree with some of the points being raised, but that does NOT equate to dismissing them. So long as everyone listens to everyone else, this thread is serving it's purpose.


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