Israeli soldiers convicted for using Palestinian children to check booby-traps

A Primal Nut · 04-10-2010 2:54pm

Well, at least they were convicted - credit to the Israelis where its due.

Zebra3 · 04-10-2010 2:55pm

Every day Israel breaks international law with its illegal settlements in the Golan, the West Bank, and East Jeruselam.

Every day the Israeli Defence (snigger) Force commits war crimes by backing up these illegal settlements on occupied territory.

And people want us to commend it for this phantom trial? :rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf · 04-10-2010 3:05pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So the soldiers in "many armies" are scum then?

War is a scummy thing my young friend.

But no, soldiers in many armies aren't scum.

Wolfe Tone · 04-10-2010 3:12pm

Richard Chubby Kangaroo wrote: »

War is a scummy thing my young friend.

But no, soldiers in many armies aren't scum.

Would you class soldiers who use children as human shields as scum then?

I notice that you have not chipped in with your personal thoughts yet, merely saying that Israel has deemed it illegal you then appear to attempt to defend said scumbag soldiers by saying that most soldiers and armies would do so if they were allowed.
You said that the soldiers were idiots, are they so simply because they broke the "rules"?

Do you think they should be allowed?

arybvtcw0eolkf · 04-10-2010 3:21pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Would you class soldiers who use children as human shields as scum then?

I'd class soldiers convicted of using children as human shields as scum.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I notice that you have not chipped in with your personal thoughts yet, merely saying that Israel has deemed it illegal you then appear to attempt to defend said scumbag soldiers by saying that most soldiers and armies would do so if they were allowed.
You said that the soldiers were idiots, are they so simply because they broke the "rules"?

For a mere child yourself you've a way of twisting things!. Btw, I'm not slagging you off. But as your are not of military age yourself you'd be classed as a child.

In reply to Wes I said "most armies", and its the truth of it. Personally I think its a scummy thing to do. Civilians are non-combatants and would be treated as such and afforded every protection possible from the conflict.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do you think they should be allowed?

Do I think they should be allowed us children as shields?.. Do I not make myself clear on this point?.

dvpower · 04-10-2010 3:26pm

Jakkass wrote: »

Hang on. Israel convicts people of injustice? - Fair play on the court for ruling this way. I hope Israel continues to take such action in the case of wholly unjust behaviour in the IDF. As I see it this is a positive rather than a negative reflection on Israel.

I'll await the sentencing before making that judgement.

BlaasForRafa · 04-10-2010 3:28pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

By reading my posts, it could be read that I'm attributing this to >all< posters defending Israel (or other arguments to all those criticizing); I'm not, what I'm pointing out is that it's a simple observation that posts defending Israel, and a greater portion of the posters defending them (not all of them), express views which are more ugly and reprehensible than posters criticizing/condemning Israel.

I would say that you could possibly be imposing your own bias when you look at what posters say.

On the last two pages alone you have anti-Israeli posters calling ALL IDF personnel "slime", "scum" and "scumbags". I don't see any pro-IDF posters calling all palestinian equivalent names on this thread.

The majority of the vitriol in this board and the politics board that gets laid down is very firmly from the anti-Israeli side, as is most of the emotive and irrational posting. As you said there are exceptions but I find that your attempt to paint one side as somehow devious and underhanded not only to be trying to impose a stereotype but to the just plain wrong and not particularly helpful to the debate.

Too many times on these threads the anti-Israelis have just tried to shout down any dissenting voices to that of the orthodox view which seems to form here.

BlaasForRafa · 04-10-2010 3:29pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Would you class soldiers who use children as human shields as scum then?

I notice that you have not chipped in with your personal thoughts yet, merely saying that Israel has deemed it illegal you then appear to attempt to defend said scumbag soldiers by saying that most soldiers and armies would do so if they were allowed.
You said that the soldiers were idiots, are they so simply because they broke the "rules"?

Do you think they should be allowed?

I think for a PIRA supporter to be lecturing anyone on the laws and rules of warfare is extremely rich.

citizen_p · 04-10-2010 3:31pm

the actions of two soldiers dosnt define an army.

dvpower · 04-10-2010 3:33pm

Mousey- wrote: »

the actions of two soldiers dosnt define an army.

See the links posted above. This isn't an isolated incident.

dvpower · 04-10-2010 3:36pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think for a PIRA supporter to be lecturing anyone on the laws and rules of warfare is extremely rich.

At risk of going off topic, the IRA were happy to use proxy bombers.

optogirl · 04-10-2010 3:38pm

Ronin247 wrote: »

How could they be so inhuman.....Its not like the poor Palestinians have ever used children as human shields or to carry weapons is it???

There are no recorded incidents of Isreali suicide bombers in the Palestinian markets or the high street.

Oh the poor downtrodden Palestinians.

Have you any clue what you're talking about? This conflict is not between 2 forces of equal capability or strength. Palestinians live in what is basically a giant POW camp - you think they're spending their days shopping on the 'High Street'. Laughable. And what can you buy at this market - there is a blockade.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 04-10-2010 3:39pm

dvpower wrote: »

At risk of going off topic, the IRA were happy to use proxy bombers.

Everytime I drive into Newry I remember the British soldiers murdered by the IRA at the old Newry checkpoint.

The IRA held an innocent man's family hostage and made him drive a bomb laden van into the checkpoint under threat that his family would be killed if he refused.

Three British soldiers were killed, plus the innocent man - the 'proxy bomber'.

optogirl · 04-10-2010 3:46pm

Einhard wrote: »

So Israel is damned when it does, and damned when it doesn't. The OP links to a story about soldiers being investigated and convicted by Israeli institutions, and yet somehow it's a cause to condemn the state of Israel? I really don't get it. I mean, there are plently of reasons to be critical of Israel and her policies, but this jumping on every single situation and story to do so is somewhat tedious.

It may well be tedious to you but not, perhaps, to the countless people in Palestine who are forced to live on virtually nothing and risk their lives to get around their own land. From their point of view, Israel is not to be trusted and so every action they make will, of course, be met with fear & skepticism.

Wolfe Tone · 04-10-2010 3:48pm

Richard Chubby Kangaroo wrote: »

I'd class soldiers convicted of using children as human shields as scum.

So only if you are caught?

For a mere child yourself you've a way of twisting things!. Btw, I'm not slagging you off. But as your are not of military age yourself you'd be classed as a child.

You must be thinking of someone else, I am of voting age.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think for a PIRA supporter to be lecturing anyone on the laws and rules of warfare is extremely rich.

Wait, I hear time and again that the IRA were terrorists and not a legitimate army like both the BA and Israels army?

Play the ball and not the man.

Richard Chubby Kangaroo wrote: »

Everytime I drive into Newry I remember the British soldiers murdered by the IRA at the old Newry checkpoint.

The IRA held an innocent man's family hostage and made him drive a bomb laden van into the checkpoint under threat that his family would be killed if he refused.

Three British soldiers were killed, plus the innocent man - the 'proxy bomber'.

How fascinating, and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

ScumLord · 04-10-2010 3:50pm

"The boy, who feared for his fate and was under the stress of the situation, wet his pants,"

I'm sure the poor lad will be thanking the newspapers in a few years for making a scary situation into a life time of abuse.

Micky Dolenz · 04-10-2010 3:53pm

Lets keep it on topic please.

kraggy · 04-10-2010 4:33pm

I'm going to keep an eye on this as I bet that they'll get nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

The Israelis are great at letting on that they do not condone such actions and hold a much publicised hearing into events to make it look like that they actually have a problem with barbaric treatment of Palestinians when in fact, they don't.

These soldiers will not do time and will not be martialed.

Nodin · 04-10-2010 4:37pm

I'd rather not prejudge. It was a major step forward when the practice was outlawed, and only the most rabid are going to try to stand over the use of pre-teen children in such a manner.

Zebra3 · 04-10-2010 5:21pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11464621

More violence from the terrorists that the Israeli army proudly "defends"-illegally.

Terry · 04-10-2010 5:28pm

In related news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11464621

Israel is investigating Palestinian suspicions that a mosque in the West Bank was set alight by Jewish settlers.

Arsonists reportedly scrawled Hebrew graffiti on the walls of the mosque in Beit Fajjar, near Bethlehem.

The mayor of a nearby settlement condemned the attack and said those carrying it out must have been "extremists".

The assault comes as Palestinian-Israeli peace talks have faltered over the issue of settlements.

Israel has occupied the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, since 1967, housing nearly 500,000 Jews in more than 100 settlements. Some 2.5 million Palestinians live in the West Bank.

Jewish settlements are illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.
Failed investigations

Residents of Beit Fajjar said a group of settlers went into the mosque overnight and set fire to carpets and copies of the Koran.

Reports say the word "revenge" was scrawled on the wall in Hebrew.

A spokesman for the Israeli military said it was taking the burning of the mosque very seriously.

"We are doing the utmost in order to reach those law-breakers," army spokeswoman Avital Leibowitz told reporters in Tel Aviv.
Continue reading the main story
Israeli settlements on occupied land

* Nearly 500,000 settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, alongside 2.5 million Palestinians
* 20,000 settlers live in the Golan Heights
* Settlements and the area they take up cover 40% of the West Bank
* There are about 100 settlements not authorised by the Israeli government in the West Bank

Meanwhile Shaul Goldstein, the mayor of Gush Etzion, a local settlement, told the BBC he condemned the attack.

While extremists were present in every society, he said, "they do not represent the entire society. The settlers are against it."

Previous Israeli investigations of mosque attacks have failed to produce results.

In April, a mosque was vandalised with Hebrew graffiti, cars were burnt and olive trees uprooted in the village of Hawara, near the Yitzhar settlement.

And in May, a mosque in the Palestinian village of Lubban al-Sharqiya, near Nablus, was gutted in a fire which also destroyed holy books.

No charges were brought against anyone in either case.

Mohammad Hussein, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, came to inspect the damage and talk to the locals.

"The settlers' message is: terrorise the Palestinian people," he told Reuters news agency.

"Crimes like these do not terrorise the Palestinian people. On the contrary, such attacks will only embolden the Palestinian people and increase our determination to achieve all of our rights," he reportedly said after delivering a brief sermon.
'Price tag policy'

Some hard-line settlers advocate a "price tag" policy under which they attack Palestinians in retaliation for any Israeli government measure they see as threatening Jewish settlements.

The Palestinian leadership has said it will not continue peace talks with Israel unless a freeze on Jewish settlements in the West Bank resumes, after building started again last week.

Israel refused to extend a 10-month partial ban on settlement building in the West Bank which expired last Sunday.

Direct talks between Israel and the Palestinians resumed in September after a break of nearly two years.

The emboldened bit made me laugh. It's a bit Irish.
Ahh, sure it was just a few extremists.
Yes, just like the Palestinian extremists do not represent every Palestinian.

The fact that these ****ers in power cannot see how hypocritical they are is beyond me.
They blow the crap out of Palestine when ever the Palestinians do something wrong, but just put it down to isolated extremism when it's their own people being dicks.

Take a look at the map near the bottom and look at the blatant apartheid.

KyussBishop · 04-10-2010 6:10pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I would say that you could possibly be imposing your own bias when you look at what posters say.

On the last two pages alone you have anti-Israeli posters calling ALL IDF personnel "slime", "scum" and "scumbags". I don't see any pro-IDF posters calling all palestinian equivalent names on this thread.

The majority of the vitriol in this board and the politics board that gets laid down is very firmly from the anti-Israeli side, as is most of the emotive and irrational posting. As you said there are exceptions but I find that your attempt to paint one side as somehow devious and underhanded not only to be trying to impose a stereotype but to the just plain wrong and not particularly helpful to the debate.

Too many times on these threads the anti-Israelis have just tried to shout down any dissenting voices to that of the orthodox view which seems to form here.

I judge others posts by their arguments, not by a general subjective impression I get from them.

I don't see the point in getting into a debate over "which side says more unfair/offensive/etc. things"; it's inevitable you will have posters on both sides saying things which go a bit over the top.
I explained in my previous post (much better than I want to summarize here, as I'll just be leaving out important parts of my argument) why I think some of the Israeli defending posts are worse.

Also, I've specifically said I don't attribute my views to all posters defending Israel; I'm not stereotyping in any way, all of my arguments are very well backed up, and I've explained why I think it's relevant to the thread.

In something else related to the topic, I've been watching some of The Daily Show recently (is good, but could do without some of the weird/annoying character gimmicks you get with US 'late night' talk show etc.), and there was a very good interview with the king of Jordan in it, with some interesting points of view relating to Israel/Palestine.

Unfortunately though (probably makes it unviewable for most), it's geolocked to the US, and you'll need to use a proxy (for example Tor, setup with exit nodes in the US) to view:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-23-2010/king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-september-23-2010/exclusive---king-abdullah-ii-of-jordan-extended-interview

BlaasForRafa · 04-10-2010 7:10pm

Terry wrote: »

In related news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11464621

The emboldened bit made me laugh. It's a bit Irish.
Ahh, sure it was just a few extremists.
Yes, just like the Palestinian extremists do not represent every Palestinian.

The fact that these ****ers in power cannot see how hypocritical they are is beyond me.
They blow the crap out of Palestine when ever the Palestinians do something wrong, but just put it down to isolated extremism when it's their own people being dicks.

Take a look at the map near the bottom and look at the blatant apartheid.

This is not actually related news. This has nothing to do with the thread in hand and is a typical ploy to extend this into a free-for-all anti-Israel thread.

Perhaps you would be better off launching another thread related to this, and while your at it have a read of this http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/coercive-imposition-of-western-culture-1.316806 and you'll see that its not just the west bank that needs to defend itself from the mania of ultra-religous zealots but secular Israel itself.

BlaasForRafa · 04-10-2010 7:21pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

I judge others posts by their arguments, not by a general subjective impression I get from them.

I don't see the point in getting into a debate over "which side says more unfair/offensive/etc. things"; it's inevitable you will have posters on both sides saying things which go a bit over the top.
I explained in my previous post (much better than I want to summarize here, as I'll just be leaving out important parts of my argument) why I think some of the Israeli defending posts are worse.

Hang on a moment there, you came on this thread questioning the quality of posts by a range of users but then you go modifying and qualifying your positions so that it boils down to " some people make rubbish posts".....but the pro-Israel/IDF side are worse.

I don't think we're going to agree on this point, I think its probably better to agree to disagree at this stage.

sdanseo · 04-10-2010 7:30pm

Scum of the earth. To use a civilian as a sheild is bad enough, but to use a defeceless kid? That's just the sickest form of barbary.

Killer Pigeon · 04-10-2010 7:34pm

It's good way to use resources, I think. I mean it would cost so much more to build a high-tech robot and go into a mine field to defuse explosives.

sdanseo · 04-10-2010 7:48pm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

It's good way to use resources, I think. I mean it would cost so much more to build a high-tech robot and go into a mine field to defuse explosives.

Oh yes we'll just use kids instaed, they're completely expendable.

Cop on.

KyussBishop · 04-10-2010 9:46pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Hang on a moment there, you came on this thread questioning the quality of posts by a range of users but then you go modifying and qualifying your positions so that it boils down to " some people make rubbish posts".....but the pro-Israel/IDF side are worse.

I don't think we're going to agree on this point, I think its probably better to agree to disagree at this stage.

I made no modification/simplification of my position, I said I was not going to repeat my arguments, as I'd already covered stuff in previous posts and don't want to summarize/simplify and thus diminish my arguments.

As far as my arguments go, I don't see the point in debating which side makes the more offensive posts, even though I believe it is the posts defending Israel (people reading can/will make their own judgments on that); it is irrelevant, because the posts defending Israel are bad enough in themselves to be individually deserving of criticism (which is what I initially did on entering the thread).

Like in my first post, with context changed:

KyussBishop wrote:

2: "Well it's not like the Palestinians [anti-Israel posters] haven't done the same":
If true, this doesn't make it any less newsworthy, and (to take it to a length which hasn't been said) [and] if such an argument is applied to imply hypocrisy, for not mentioning that Palestinians [anti-Israeli posters] may do the same thing, then that is a false argument because:
- Nobody has made the claim saying Palestinians don't do the same, and there is nothing said to imply people hold them to a different standard
- Even if it were hypocrisy, that would not invalidate an argument, or make this less newsworthy; it stands by itself

Einhard · 05-10-2010 2:22pm

jackiebaron wrote: »

The IDF routinely abuse Palestinians. Pregnant women and pensioners are left to die at checkpoints when they are trying to get to hospital.

Quie often to Israeli hospitals, to be cared for by Israeli doctors and nurses. Evil Israeli scum.

dlofnep · 05-10-2010 2:35pm

Einhard wrote: »

Quie often to Israeli hospitals, to be cared for by Israeli doctors and nurses. Evil Israeli scum.

And who puts them there?

BlaasForRafa · 05-10-2010 2:38pm

dlofnep wrote: »

And who puts them there?

Allah presumably.

The Saint · 05-10-2010 3:13pm

Einhard wrote: »

Quie often to Israeli hospitals, to be cared for by Israeli doctors and nurses. Evil Israeli scum.

More often between Palestinian areas and Palestinian areas since they usually recieve specialised care in hospitals in East Jerusalem that is not available in the rest of the West Bank.

In some areas such as Barta'a in north Jenin there are also restrictions from the Seam Zone across the checkpoint to the hospital in Jenin city. Preganant women in this enclave often leave for Jenin a month before they are due to give birth to ensure that they will have access to a hospital when the time comes. Others have died at the checkpoint because ambulances were not allowed to cross, and others have been permanently affected from being delayed at the checkpoint, such as a boy who went blind as he didn't recieve medical attention in time as he wasn't allowed cross the checkpoint.

You clearly don't have much of an idea of what you are talking about.

Einhard · 05-10-2010 3:47pm

The Saint wrote: »

You clearly don't have much of an idea of what you are talking about.

LOL, that's the second time I've been told that here today, and it was also by someone who I happened to disagree with it. It's funny how only those who share your positions know anything of the situation eh? Nice and convenient...and arrogant too!

As I stated, Palestinians are quite often treated in Israeli hospitals. By Israeli doctors and nurses. I think you'll find that this is not incorrect.

KyussBishop · 05-10-2010 5:44pm

What is your opinion on this article then:

Middle East: Israel's secret police pressuring sick Gazans to spy for them, says report
· Treatment only offered to would-be informants
· Patients allowed to cross the border drops sharply

Israel's secret police are pressuring Palestinians in Gaza to spy on their community in exchange for urgent medical treatment, according to a report released today by an Israeli human rights organisation.

Physicians for Human Rights says the Shin Bet began interrogating Palestinian patients seeking permission to travel from Gaza to Israel for crucial medical help after Israel blockaded and then declared the tiny territory an enemy entity more than a year ago.

Typically, patients are taken to a small, windowless room, underground, beneath the security terminal at Erez, the only passenger crossing that remains open between Gaza and Israel, where they are questioned by Shin Bet agents for hours, the report says.

Refusal to cooperate often results in the denial of medical treatment. Based on the testimonies of more than 30 Palestinians - 11 of which are published - the report says the Shin Bet is using coercion and extortion to force patients to collaborate.
...
(continued)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/04/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1

Nodin · 05-10-2010 5:56pm

We might be better asking whats the rule, and whats the exception....

More than 60 Palestinian women have given birth at Israeli checkpoints since 2000 and 36 of their babies have died as a result, says a UN report.
Prepared by the High Commissioner for Human Rights, it examines the impact of the checkpoints on pregnant women.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4274400.stm

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-10-2010 6:05pm

Further to what The Saint posted.

Whenever a woman was due to give birth in our area of operations in Lebanon the family would give UNIFIL notice incase the lady had to be moved after dark.

In which case we'd have to arrange an escort and contact IDF op's with the details so the car wouldn't be fired upon.

But this is going right off the topic of two IDF soldiers being convicted of using an innocent child as a human shield.

Einhard · 05-10-2010 6:30pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

What is your opinion on this article then:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/04/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1

It's wrong. But it proves what I was saying about Palestinian patients crossing over to Israel for treatement. For which The Saint informed me that I have no idea what i'm talking about...

arybvtcw0eolkf · 05-10-2010 9:58pm

Einhard wrote: »

It's wrong. But it proves what I was saying about Palestinian patients crossing over to Israel for treatement. For which The Saint informed me that I have no idea what i'm talking about...

I think The Saint just has a better idea of whats going on than most.

Son Of A Vidic · 05-10-2010 10:12pm

jugger0 wrote: »

Well its a war, its not nice.

A war or a massacare?

The Saint · 05-10-2010 10:19pm

Einhard wrote: »

LOL, that's the second time I've been told that here today, and it was also by someone who I happened to disagree with it. It's funny how only those who share your positions know anything of the situation eh? Nice and convenient...and arrogant too!

As I stated, Palestinians are quite often treated in Israeli hospitals. By Israeli doctors and nurses. I think you'll find that this is not incorrect.

I have never claimed to share my position with anyone. My position represents me alone based on my knowledge and experience.

You're statement is disingenuous and flippant. What you are talking about is the exception rather than the rule. Once again, Palestinians are stopped from going to Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Referrals from Gaza have dropped substantially.

I also find it quite amusing that you think that in the cases where Israel does allow Palestinians to be treated in Israeli hospitals that they are doing them a favour. As the occupying power, Israel has an obligation to the wellbeing of the Palestinians, including their health, under international law. They are failing abismally at this. Under international law Israel should be allowing unrestricted access to Palestinian medical facilities and where these are not available, Israel should be supplying these services. For Christ sake, they're refusing UN ambulances and medical teams staffed by international workers from entering some Palestinian areas.

Once again, you're arguement is disengenuous and misleading and was clearly meant to be such.

Israeli soldiers convicted for using Palestinian children to check booby-traps

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