Hugo Chavez

Denerick · 27-09-2010 04:47PM #1

The Venezualan opposition made big gains in the congressional elections today, overturning the socialist 2/3 majority (Which prevents Chavez from creating the one party state he is obsessed about) The trouble is that they may have won as much as 52% of the popular vote.

What is your opinion of Chavez? Many in the west, and indeed in Venezuala admire him as a champion of 'democratic socialism', a man with a strong social conscience intent on redistributing the nation's wealth to the poor. Personally I regard him as an eccentric and rather annoying demagogue who has cultivated a cult of the leader among the Venezualan poor (Who no doubt have benefited from his rule) He has also managed to squander Venezuala's oil boom and has made some disastrous economic decisions. Despite all his efforts, inequality is high relative to European countries, but to be fair it has fell significantly (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2172.html)

I'd be interested to see what people think of him. The guardian has a poll that shows a disturbing level of support amongst left leaning Britons: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2010/sep/27/venezuela-hugo-chavez

As I said, I dislike the man, I think he is dangerous and a potential tyrant in the making, if not already. (His control of state media is disturbing and it was effectively a propaganda tool for him in the run up to the elections) I think the European left has once again made a major mistake in poorer parts of the world, elevating a cheap demagogue into a poster boy of socialism.*

*Just for the record, lets not indulge in accusations of 'right winger propaganda' etc etc. I am not right wing, I consider myself on the political center left, a social liberal who admires the Nordic social democratic system... so don't even bother with that slur.

Orizio · 27-09-2010 04:51PM

Has Venezuela still gotten (or close to having) the worst crime and corruption figures in South America?

Yeah, I'm going to continue to say no to Hugo.

Denerick · 27-09-2010 05:01PM

I think Venezuala has one of the highest homicide rates in the world, though its hard to tell due to state censorship. A major exposé was launched a couple of months ago with a picture of a state morgue in a private newspaper (Lots and lots of dead bodies) Needless to say the proprietor got in a bit of bother over that.

20Cent · 27-09-2010 05:12PM

How come anyone left wing who is popular is a demagogue?
Using a countries wealth for the people who live there or providing services to the poor is buying votes.
He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

Eliot Rosewater · 27-09-2010 05:36PM

Denerick wrote: »

*Just for the record, lets not indulge in accusations of 'right winger propaganda' etc etc.

...

20Cent wrote: »

He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

20Cent wrote: »

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

His attempts to control the media should have everyone's alarm bells ringing, but I suppose his supporters are ends justify the means folk so this isn't a consideration for them (particularly from the comfort of their Western European homes). In my opinion his curtailment of the freedom of the press is enough to nullify any gains one supposes him to have made.

There's always a sense of irony discussing people like Chavez on boards.ie. His supporters should realise that were they living under him they wouldn't have the freedom to do what they are doing now - posting their opinion on the net.

fontanalis · 27-09-2010 05:38PM

20Cent wrote: »

How come anyone left wing who is popular is a demagogue?
Using a countries wealth for the people who live there or providing services to the poor is buying votes.
He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

Well he is a demagogue, spouting sensationalist anti western nonsesne.
And a supporter of Pinochet could say he done good too.
There needs to be consistency when condemning these nut job leaders (left or right wing), just like Castro too much criticisms is deflected by no but yeah type stuff.

20Cent · 27-09-2010 05:42PM

fontanalis wrote: »

Well he is a demagogue, spouting sensationalist anti western nonsesne.
And a supporter of Pinochet could say he done good too.
There needs to be consistency when condemning these nut job leaders (left or right wing), just like Castro too much criticisms is deflected by no but yeah type stuff.

What nut job stuff has he done?

Pinochet was a military dictator he took power by force. Chavez won elections.

Brussels Sprout · 27-09-2010 06:05PM

When he first came to power years ago I liked him. He appeared to be fighting for the disenfranchised in a country with vast natural wealth. However as he has continued in the job he appears to have veered toward becoming one of those tin-pot dictators that can be found all over Africa and central Asia. Anytime someone tries to alter the constitution to extend their own reign or stifle free press, alarm bells should be ringing.

metrovelvet · 27-09-2010 06:07PM

Another Castro.

Manic Moran · 27-09-2010 06:09PM

What nut job stuff has he done?

Massive nationalisation, rearmament with generally unsuitable but flashy equipment, and silencing of dissent isn't 'nut job' per se, but is definitely a little questionable in terms of decision-making.

NTM

Sand · 27-09-2010 06:13PM

@20Cent

What nut job stuff has he done?

I googled Hugo Chavez and nut job and came up with 23,600 results.

First hit was him claiming the US used a secret weapon to destroy Haiti as a drill for an ultimate strike on Iran with their tectonic weapon.

Note, were just talking about nutjob stuff he has done - not all the downright totalarian measures he has taken to gut the individual liberties and freedoms of the Venezeulan people for the crime of opposing him.

Byron85 · 27-09-2010 06:15PM

Sand wrote: »

@20Cent

I googled Hugo Chavez and nut job and came up with 23,600 results.

First hit was him claiming the US used a secret weapon to destroy Haiti as a drill for an ultimate strike on Iran with their tectonic weapon.

Note, were just talking about nutjob stuff he has done - not all the downright totalarian measures he has taken to gut the individual liberties and freedoms of the Venezeulan people for the crime of opposing him.

And George Bush believes that the world is less than 6,000 years old.

Sand · 27-09-2010 06:26PM

Ah, the "Whataboutbush" defence.

Denerick · 27-09-2010 06:33PM

20Cent wrote: »

How come anyone left wing who is popular is a demagogue?
Using a countries wealth for the people who live there or providing services to the poor is buying votes.
He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

This is just too funny.

You have seen his 'Hugo on TV' show?

Denerick · 27-09-2010 06:37PM

Byron85 wrote: »

Well it's a valid counterargument. You can't call Chavez a lunatic for believing what he does and then not call someone else a lunatic, in this case Bush, who has extremely ludicrous beliefs that have helped to guide his life and arguably had an input in his Presidential decisions.

Bush had to work with an opposition, a free media, and didn't appear on tv most evenings cursing the 'capitalist fools who stand in the way of our glorious bolivarian revolution'. Your comparison is very funny and betrays a profound lack of understanding of the conditions in Venezuala.

Eliot Rosewater · 27-09-2010 06:42PM

Byron85 wrote: »

I understand quite well the conditions in Venezuela. The comparison still stands. A Creationist in the White House is just as ridiculous as some of Chavez's pronouncements.

I don't see how that in anyway makes Chavez's views any better.

Byron85 · 27-09-2010 06:43PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I don't see how that in anyway makes Chavez's views any better.

It doesn't and I didn't say that. Just pointing out what I see as a flaw in the criticism.

Sand · 27-09-2010 06:44PM

Well it's a valid counterargument. You can't call Chavez a lunatic for believing what he does and then not call someone else a lunatic

Uh, why on earth not? Why cant I just answer the question asked?

Eliot Rosewater · 27-09-2010 06:46PM

Byron85 wrote: »

It doesn't and I didn't say that. Just pointing out what I see as a flaw in the criticism.

Are you saying Sand's criticism of Chavez is only valid if he criticises Bush simultaneously? By the same logic Sand should also have to criticise every other lunatic in the world.

20Cent · 27-09-2010 08:36PM

Sand wrote: »

@20Cent

I googled Hugo Chavez and nut job and came up with 23,600 results.

First hit was him claiming the US used a secret weapon to destroy Haiti as a drill for an ultimate strike on Iran with their tectonic weapon.

Note, were just talking about nutjob stuff he has done - not all the downright totalarian measures he has taken to gut the individual liberties and freedoms of the Venezeulan people for the crime of opposing him.

A Russian tv channel quoting a Spanish newspaper??
The story turned out to be untrue, like most stories about him.

Whatever he does or says is turned into hyperbole attacks.

He's not a messiah or a dictator don't see anything he has done that is not also common in the west. He seems to be a bit eccentric. If he ignores the election results and tries to stay in power then he'll be a dictator.

Denerick · 27-09-2010 08:38PM

20Cent wrote: »

He's not a messiah or a dictator don't see anything he has done that is not also common in the west. He seems to be a bit eccentric. If he ignores the election results and tries to stay in power then he'll be a dictator.

He has already manipulated the electoral system. The opposition won more than half of the popular vote (IN the context of a media that is almost entirely dominated by the State and which was mobilised as a propaganda vehicle for Chavez and the socialists) and yet win barely a third of the seats. This man is more Mugabe than Mandela.

20Cent · 27-09-2010 08:40PM

Denerick wrote: »

He has already manipulated the electoral system. The opposition won more than half of the popular vote (IN the context of a media that is almost entirely dominated by the State and which was mobilised as a propaganda vehicle for Chavez and the socialists) and yet win barely a third of the seats. This man is more Mugabe than Mandela.

Most of the media in Venezuela is privately owned and anti Chavez.
How has he manipulated the electoral system?

Denerick · 27-09-2010 08:48PM

20Cent wrote: »

Most of the media in Venezuela is privately owned and anti Chavez.

Government run media (Including 6 tv channels) gave blanket coverage to the socialists and token, hostile interviews to the opposition. 2 free to air channels attempted a balance. Chavez has a history of shutting down media networks he dislikes. After the opposition made big gains in urban areas in 2008, Chavez stripped local governments of much of their autonomy and slashed their budgets. You are defending a tyrant here.

How has he manipulated the electoral system?

Chavez introduced a first past the post system that heavily weights in favour of his rural strongholds (Another similarity with Zimbabwe) The opposition would have needed an overwhelmingly massive popular vote swing to win a congressional majority. This was in the context of the opposition practically boycotting the 2005 election and allowing a massive socialist majority to come in and rubber stamp various iniatives as mentioned above.

southsiderosie · 27-09-2010 08:53PM

To give credit where credit is due, poverty has decreased significantly under Chavez. And for once in Venezuela's miserable political history, there is actually a leader who cares about poor people (of which there are many).

That said, I think Chavez is a hypocritical, anti-democratic, egomaniac who is running the country into the ground.

He constantly rails against the US government, but relies on them to buy and process Venezuela's heavy crude oil that pays for his social programs.

He bleats about democracy, but shuts down media outlets that are critical of him (or that refuse to broadcast his rambling, 5-hour speeches) and has gerrymandered voting districts in an attempt to maintain a permanent majority.

He has under-invested in the state oil company because he diverts so much revenue to electoral goodies; in essence he is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Under his watch, crime has skyrocketed, especially in Caracas, and this disproportionately affects poor people who cannot afford private security or high fences with razor wire. And his harboring of the FARC is shameful, especially given their atrocious human rights record.

I think the last decade in Latin America has shown that there can be a third way between left-wing populism and right-wing authoritarianism: Lula in Brazil is a good example. Sadly, I think that Chavez is a throwback to old-school left-wing revolutionaries who are happy to squash domestic dissent and destroy their country's economies in the name of "revolutionary" progress.

Denerick · 27-09-2010 08:56PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think the last decade in Latin America has shown that there can be a third way between left-wing populism and right-wing authoritarianism: Lula in Brazil is a good example. Sadly, I think that Chavez is a throwback to old-school left-wing revolutionaries who are happy to squash domestic dissent and destroy their country's economies in the name of "revolutionary" progress.

Well said. What annoys me most is left wingers in North America and Europe elevating this man to the status of hero - a lá Oliver Stone.

southsiderosie · 27-09-2010 09:05PM

Denerick wrote: »

Well said. What annoys me most is left wingers in North America and Europe elevating this man to the status of hero - a lá Oliver Stone.

What annoys me about intellectual/artistic left's relationship with leaders like Chavez - and especially Castro - is that these people enjoy the freedom to criticize their own governments - and took full advantage of it during the Bush era - but support leaders who deny their own people the same rights. Do the Sean Penns, Oliver Stones, and run-of-the-mill champagne Marxists just not ever meet with dissidents? And I don't mean old sugar mill owners or crazy right-wing South Florida Cubans, I mean regular people - professors, journalists, doctors, teachers - who suffer for having an opinion, and who often risk their lives to leave.

Seriously, this makes me so mad; I've had to walk away from people over this because I get the overwhelming urge to punch them in the face.

20Cent · 27-09-2010 09:07PM

Denerick wrote: »

Government run media (Including 6 tv channels) gave blanket coverage to the socialists and token, hostile interviews to the opposition. 2 free to air channels attempted a balance. Chavez has a history of shutting down media networks he dislikes. After the opposition made big gains in urban areas in 2008, Chavez stripped local governments of much of their autonomy and slashed their budgets. You are defending a tyrant here.

Chavez introduced a first past the post system that heavily weights in favour of his rural strongholds (Another similarity with Zimbabwe) The opposition would have needed an overwhelmingly massive popular vote swing to win a congressional majority. This was in the context of the opposition practically boycotting the 2005 election and allowing a massive socialist majority to come in and rubber stamp various iniatives as mentioned above.

This terrible tyrant keeps holding elections and referendums.
Thought dictators didn't do that?
First past the post system, like the UK, Canada, the USA etc etc.........

A tv station took part in a coup, the houses of Parliament were surrounded and threated to be bombed , the constitution ripped up what did the evil Dictator do?
Left it to the courts, station is still up and running, The monster.

He's crap at being a dictator.

Truth is he is not playing ball and has to be demonised at every opportunity.

20Cent · 27-09-2010 09:08PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

What annoys me about intellectual/artistic left's relationship with leaders like Chavez - and especially Castro - is that these people enjoy the freedom to criticize their own governments - and took full advantage of it during the Bush era - but support leaders who deny their own people the same rights. Do the Sean Penns, Oliver Stones, and run-of-the-mill champagne Marxists just not ever meet with dissidents? And I don't mean old sugar mill owners or crazy right-wing South Florida Cubans, I mean regular people - professors, journalists, doctors, teachers - who suffer for having an opinion, and who often risk their lives to leave.

Seriously, this makes me so mad; I've had to walk away from people over this because I get the overwhelming urge to punch them in the face.

How many political prisoners are there in Cuba or Venezuela?

ILA · 27-09-2010 09:12PM

The greatest man the World has ever known. What do you want to know about him?

Denerick · 27-09-2010 09:17PM

20Cent wrote: »

This terrible tyrant keeps holding elections and referendums.
Thought dictators didn't do that?

Never hear of a 'democratic dictatorship'? Ever hear about Mugabe?

First past the post system, like the UK, Canada, the USA etc etc.........

Gerrymandering.

He's crap at being a dictator.

Truth is he is not playing ball and has to be demonised at every opportunity.

'Playing ball'? What? Is this the best you can come up with?

Denerick · 27-09-2010 09:20PM

20Cent wrote: »

How many political prisoners are there in Cuba or Venezuela?

Cuba - http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

Venezuala - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/04/AR2009100402866_pf.html

Have some respect.

Hugo Chavez

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