Hugo Chavez

Denerick

The Venezualan opposition made big gains in the congressional elections today, overturning the socialist 2/3 majority (Which prevents Chavez from creating the one party state he is obsessed about) The trouble is that they may have won as much as 52% of the popular vote.

What is your opinion of Chavez? Many in the west, and indeed in Venezuala admire him as a champion of 'democratic socialism', a man with a strong social conscience intent on redistributing the nation's wealth to the poor. Personally I regard him as an eccentric and rather annoying demagogue who has cultivated a cult of the leader among the Venezualan poor (Who no doubt have benefited from his rule) He has also managed to squander Venezuala's oil boom and has made some disastrous economic decisions. Despite all his efforts, inequality is high relative to European countries, but to be fair it has fell significantly (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2172.html)

I'd be interested to see what people think of him. The guardian has a poll that shows a disturbing level of support amongst left leaning Britons: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2010/sep/27/venezuela-hugo-chavez

As I said, I dislike the man, I think he is dangerous and a potential tyrant in the making, if not already. (His control of state media is disturbing and it was effectively a propaganda tool for him in the run up to the elections) I think the European left has once again made a major mistake in poorer parts of the world, elevating a cheap demagogue into a poster boy of socialism.*

*Just for the record, lets not indulge in accusations of 'right winger propaganda' etc etc. I am not right wing, I consider myself on the political center left, a social liberal who admires the Nordic social democratic system... so don't even bother with that slur.

Orizio

Has Venezuela still gotten (or close to having) the worst crime and corruption figures in South America?

Yeah, I'm going to continue to say no to Hugo.

Denerick

I think Venezuala has one of the highest homicide rates in the world, though its hard to tell due to state censorship. A major exposé was launched a couple of months ago with a picture of a state morgue in a private newspaper (Lots and lots of dead bodies) Needless to say the proprietor got in a bit of bother over that.

20Cent

How come anyone left wing who is popular is a demagogue?
Using a countries wealth for the people who live there or providing services to the poor is buying votes.
He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

Eliot Rosewater

Denerick wrote: »

*Just for the record, lets not indulge in accusations of 'right winger propaganda' etc etc.

...

20Cent wrote: »

He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

20Cent wrote: »

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

His attempts to control the media should have everyone's alarm bells ringing, but I suppose his supporters are ends justify the means folk so this isn't a consideration for them (particularly from the comfort of their Western European homes). In my opinion his curtailment of the freedom of the press is enough to nullify any gains one supposes him to have made.

There's always a sense of irony discussing people like Chavez on boards.ie. His supporters should realise that were they living under him they wouldn't have the freedom to do what they are doing now - posting their opinion on the net.

fontanalis

20Cent wrote: »

How come anyone left wing who is popular is a demagogue?
Using a countries wealth for the people who live there or providing services to the poor is buying votes.
He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

Well he is a demagogue, spouting sensationalist anti western nonsesne.
And a supporter of Pinochet could say he done good too.
There needs to be consistency when condemning these nut job leaders (left or right wing), just like Castro too much criticisms is deflected by no but yeah type stuff.

20Cent

fontanalis wrote: »

Well he is a demagogue, spouting sensationalist anti western nonsesne.
And a supporter of Pinochet could say he done good too.
There needs to be consistency when condemning these nut job leaders (left or right wing), just like Castro too much criticisms is deflected by no but yeah type stuff.

What nut job stuff has he done?

Pinochet was a military dictator he took power by force. Chavez won elections.

Brussels Sprout

When he first came to power years ago I liked him. He appeared to be fighting for the disenfranchised in a country with vast natural wealth. However as he has continued in the job he appears to have veered toward becoming one of those tin-pot dictators that can be found all over Africa and central Asia. Anytime someone tries to alter the constitution to extend their own reign or stifle free press, alarm bells should be ringing.

metrovelvet

Another Castro.

Manic Moran

What nut job stuff has he done?

Massive nationalisation, rearmament with generally unsuitable but flashy equipment, and silencing of dissent isn't 'nut job' per se, but is definitely a little questionable in terms of decision-making.

NTM

Sand

@20Cent

What nut job stuff has he done?

I googled Hugo Chavez and nut job and came up with 23,600 results.

First hit was him claiming the US used a secret weapon to destroy Haiti as a drill for an ultimate strike on Iran with their tectonic weapon.

Note, were just talking about nutjob stuff he has done - not all the downright totalarian measures he has taken to gut the individual liberties and freedoms of the Venezeulan people for the crime of opposing him.

Byron85

Sand wrote: »

@20Cent



I googled Hugo Chavez and nut job and came up with 23,600 results.

First hit was him claiming the US used a secret weapon to destroy Haiti as a drill for an ultimate strike on Iran with their tectonic weapon.

Note, were just talking about nutjob stuff he has done - not all the downright totalarian measures he has taken to gut the individual liberties and freedoms of the Venezeulan people for the crime of opposing him.

And George Bush believes that the world is less than 6,000 years old.

Sand

Ah, the "Whataboutbush" defence.

Denerick

20Cent wrote: »

How come anyone left wing who is popular is a demagogue?
Using a countries wealth for the people who live there or providing services to the poor is buying votes.
He gets trashed by right wing propaganda.

Frankly he has done more good than harm in my opinion.

This is just too funny.

You have seen his 'Hugo on TV' show?

Denerick

Byron85 wrote: »

Well it's a valid counterargument. You can't call Chavez a lunatic for believing what he does and then not call someone else a lunatic, in this case Bush, who has extremely ludicrous beliefs that have helped to guide his life and arguably had an input in his Presidential decisions.

Bush had to work with an opposition, a free media, and didn't appear on tv most evenings cursing the 'capitalist fools who stand in the way of our glorious bolivarian revolution'. Your comparison is very funny and betrays a profound lack of understanding of the conditions in Venezuala.

Eliot Rosewater

Byron85 wrote: »

I understand quite well the conditions in Venezuela. The comparison still stands. A Creationist in the White House is just as ridiculous as some of Chavez's pronouncements.

I don't see how that in anyway makes Chavez's views any better.

Byron85

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I don't see how that in anyway makes Chavez's views any better.

It doesn't and I didn't say that. Just pointing out what I see as a flaw in the criticism.

Sand

Well it's a valid counterargument. You can't call Chavez a lunatic for believing what he does and then not call someone else a lunatic

Uh, why on earth not? Why cant I just answer the question asked?

Eliot Rosewater

Byron85 wrote: »

It doesn't and I didn't say that. Just pointing out what I see as a flaw in the criticism.

Are you saying Sand's criticism of Chavez is only valid if he criticises Bush simultaneously? By the same logic Sand should also have to criticise every other lunatic in the world.

20Cent

Sand wrote: »

@20Cent



I googled Hugo Chavez and nut job and came up with 23,600 results.

First hit was him claiming the US used a secret weapon to destroy Haiti as a drill for an ultimate strike on Iran with their tectonic weapon.

Note, were just talking about nutjob stuff he has done - not all the downright totalarian measures he has taken to gut the individual liberties and freedoms of the Venezeulan people for the crime of opposing him.

A Russian tv channel quoting a Spanish newspaper??
The story turned out to be untrue, like most stories about him.

Whatever he does or says is turned into hyperbole attacks.

He's not a messiah or a dictator don't see anything he has done that is not also common in the west. He seems to be a bit eccentric. If he ignores the election results and tries to stay in power then he'll be a dictator.

Denerick

20Cent wrote: »

He's not a messiah or a dictator don't see anything he has done that is not also common in the west. He seems to be a bit eccentric. If he ignores the election results and tries to stay in power then he'll be a dictator.

He has already manipulated the electoral system. The opposition won more than half of the popular vote (IN the context of a media that is almost entirely dominated by the State and which was mobilised as a propaganda vehicle for Chavez and the socialists) and yet win barely a third of the seats. This man is more Mugabe than Mandela.

20Cent

Denerick wrote: »

He has already manipulated the electoral system. The opposition won more than half of the popular vote (IN the context of a media that is almost entirely dominated by the State and which was mobilised as a propaganda vehicle for Chavez and the socialists) and yet win barely a third of the seats. This man is more Mugabe than Mandela.

Most of the media in Venezuela is privately owned and anti Chavez.
How has he manipulated the electoral system?

Denerick

20Cent wrote: »

Most of the media in Venezuela is privately owned and anti Chavez.

Government run media (Including 6 tv channels) gave blanket coverage to the socialists and token, hostile interviews to the opposition. 2 free to air channels attempted a balance. Chavez has a history of shutting down media networks he dislikes. After the opposition made big gains in urban areas in 2008, Chavez stripped local governments of much of their autonomy and slashed their budgets. You are defending a tyrant here.

How has he manipulated the electoral system?

Chavez introduced a first past the post system that heavily weights in favour of his rural strongholds (Another similarity with Zimbabwe) The opposition would have needed an overwhelmingly massive popular vote swing to win a congressional majority. This was in the context of the opposition practically boycotting the 2005 election and allowing a massive socialist majority to come in and rubber stamp various iniatives as mentioned above.

southsiderosie

To give credit where credit is due, poverty has decreased significantly under Chavez. And for once in Venezuela's miserable political history, there is actually a leader who cares about poor people (of which there are many).

That said, I think Chavez is a hypocritical, anti-democratic, egomaniac who is running the country into the ground.

He constantly rails against the US government, but relies on them to buy and process Venezuela's heavy crude oil that pays for his social programs.

He bleats about democracy, but shuts down media outlets that are critical of him (or that refuse to broadcast his rambling, 5-hour speeches) and has gerrymandered voting districts in an attempt to maintain a permanent majority.

He has under-invested in the state oil company because he diverts so much revenue to electoral goodies; in essence he is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Under his watch, crime has skyrocketed, especially in Caracas, and this disproportionately affects poor people who cannot afford private security or high fences with razor wire. And his harboring of the FARC is shameful, especially given their atrocious human rights record.

I think the last decade in Latin America has shown that there can be a third way between left-wing populism and right-wing authoritarianism: Lula in Brazil is a good example. Sadly, I think that Chavez is a throwback to old-school left-wing revolutionaries who are happy to squash domestic dissent and destroy their country's economies in the name of "revolutionary" progress.

Denerick

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think the last decade in Latin America has shown that there can be a third way between left-wing populism and right-wing authoritarianism: Lula in Brazil is a good example. Sadly, I think that Chavez is a throwback to old-school left-wing revolutionaries who are happy to squash domestic dissent and destroy their country's economies in the name of "revolutionary" progress.

Well said. What annoys me most is left wingers in North America and Europe elevating this man to the status of hero - a lá Oliver Stone.

southsiderosie

Denerick wrote: »

Well said. What annoys me most is left wingers in North America and Europe elevating this man to the status of hero - a lá Oliver Stone.

What annoys me about intellectual/artistic left's relationship with leaders like Chavez - and especially Castro - is that these people enjoy the freedom to criticize their own governments - and took full advantage of it during the Bush era - but support leaders who deny their own people the same rights. Do the Sean Penns, Oliver Stones, and run-of-the-mill champagne Marxists just not ever meet with dissidents? And I don't mean old sugar mill owners or crazy right-wing South Florida Cubans, I mean regular people - professors, journalists, doctors, teachers - who suffer for having an opinion, and who often risk their lives to leave.

Seriously, this makes me so mad; I've had to walk away from people over this because I get the overwhelming urge to punch them in the face.

20Cent

Denerick wrote: »

Government run media (Including 6 tv channels) gave blanket coverage to the socialists and token, hostile interviews to the opposition. 2 free to air channels attempted a balance. Chavez has a history of shutting down media networks he dislikes. After the opposition made big gains in urban areas in 2008, Chavez stripped local governments of much of their autonomy and slashed their budgets. You are defending a tyrant here.



Chavez introduced a first past the post system that heavily weights in favour of his rural strongholds (Another similarity with Zimbabwe) The opposition would have needed an overwhelmingly massive popular vote swing to win a congressional majority. This was in the context of the opposition practically boycotting the 2005 election and allowing a massive socialist majority to come in and rubber stamp various iniatives as mentioned above.

This terrible tyrant keeps holding elections and referendums.
Thought dictators didn't do that?
First past the post system, like the UK, Canada, the USA etc etc.........

A tv station took part in a coup, the houses of Parliament were surrounded and threated to be bombed , the constitution ripped up what did the evil Dictator do?
Left it to the courts, station is still up and running, The monster.

He's crap at being a dictator.

Truth is he is not playing ball and has to be demonised at every opportunity.

20Cent

southsiderosie wrote: »

What annoys me about intellectual/artistic left's relationship with leaders like Chavez - and especially Castro - is that these people enjoy the freedom to criticize their own governments - and took full advantage of it during the Bush era - but support leaders who deny their own people the same rights. Do the Sean Penns, Oliver Stones, and run-of-the-mill champagne Marxists just not ever meet with dissidents? And I don't mean old sugar mill owners or crazy right-wing South Florida Cubans, I mean regular people - professors, journalists, doctors, teachers - who suffer for having an opinion, and who often risk their lives to leave.

Seriously, this makes me so mad; I've had to walk away from people over this because I get the overwhelming urge to punch them in the face.

How many political prisoners are there in Cuba or Venezuela?

ILA

The greatest man the World has ever known. What do you want to know about him?

Denerick

20Cent wrote: »

This terrible tyrant keeps holding elections and referendums.
Thought dictators didn't do that?

Never hear of a 'democratic dictatorship'? Ever hear about Mugabe?

First past the post system, like the UK, Canada, the USA etc etc.........

Gerrymandering.

He's crap at being a dictator.

Truth is he is not playing ball and has to be demonised at every opportunity.

'Playing ball'? What? Is this the best you can come up with?

Denerick

20Cent wrote: »

How many political prisoners are there in Cuba or Venezuela?

Cuba - http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

Venezuala - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/04/AR2009100402866_pf.html

Have some respect.

20Cent

Denerick wrote: »

Never hear of a 'democratic dictatorship'? Ever hear about Mugabe?



Gerrymandering.



'Playing ball'? What? Is this the best you can come up with?

You can't come up with anything that makes Chavez a dictator that does not happen in any every other country in the world.

20Cent

Denerick wrote: »

Cuba - http://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba

Venezuala - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/04/AR2009100402866_pf.html

Have some respect.

Your article says 40 political prisoners in Venezuela, HRW doesn't have much about political prisoners there.

The USA and Britain have many times more.

Denerick

20Cent wrote: »

You can't come up with anything that makes Chavez a dictator that does not happen in any every other country in the world.

Really? No offence, but have you actually read into what happens in Venezuala, or do you just lap up everything indymedia spout at you?

southsiderosie

20Cent wrote: »

How many political prisoners are there in Cuba or Venezuela?

Yes, because dictatorships like the Cuban government publish accurate numbers on the number of people they repress. :rolleyes:

Ever heard of the Varela Project?? The Ladies in White? Reinaldo Arenas? Yoani Sanchez? Do you have any idea how Cuban dissidents are treated?

Frankly most Cuban citizens are prisoners of their own government, since they are not allowed to leave the country without permission. Do you have to ask your government to go on holiday or to visit your family? Do you think that Cubans prefer to risk their lives on rickety rafts in the Florida Straits rather than flying?

20Cent wrote: »

You can't come up with anything that makes Chavez a dictator that does not happen in any every other country in the world.

If the US were run like Venezuela under Chavez:

* Chicago newspapers could not publish statistics or photos highlighting the atrocious murder rate

* Every channel would have to stop their regular programming in order to give the President 5-6 hours of airtime whenever he felt like it

* Fox News would be illegal. Not that it would be the worst thing in the world :P, I'm just sayin'...

Again, I don't understand the knee-jerk defense of Castro and Chavez. What about Lula? Bachelet? Hell, look at the PSOE in Spain: you can have socialism without squashing democratic freedoms.

pablo_escobar

How many countries have Venezuela invaded recently?
How many people have the Venezuelan military killed?

The anti-chavez posters on here are completely clueless on south american politics and it's history.

southsiderosie

pablo_escobar wrote: »

How many countries have Venezuela invaded recently?
How many people have the Venezuelan military killed?

The anti-chavez posters on here are completely clueless on south american politics and it's history.

Um, I'm very conscious of Latin American politics, having lived in the region, thanks. I'll also add that I lived with a Sandinista family in Nicaragua where the parents were jailed and tortured under the Somoza regime for their political activity - yet somehow they, via the power of rational thought and observation, were capable of criticizing Daniel Ortega (the post-1992 version). I wish more leftists outside of the region were equally capable of such critical analysis. Stop judging leaders based on their ability to thumb their nose at the US, and start judging them based on their behavior towards their own citizens.

Just because Chavez has not invaded his neighbors (despite his saber-rattling at Colombia) doesn't mean he isn't a ****ty president, based on domestic conditions within Venezuela. Stop using the US as an excuse for authoritarian behavior in other countries. Oh, and care to address my criticisms of the Chavez regime on their own terms?

And, again, why not follow the path of democratic socialism?

pablo_escobar

When the American military forces left Nicaragua for the last time, in 1933, they left behind a souvenir by which the Nicaraguan people could remember them: the National Guard, placed under the direction of one Anastasio Somoza ...

Three years later, Somoza took over the presidency and with the indispensable help of the National Guard established a family dynasty which would rule over Nicaragua, much like a private estate, for the next 43 years. While the Guardsmen, consistently maintained by the United States, passed their time on martial law, rape, torture, murder of the opposition, and massacres of peasants, as well as less violent pursuits such as robbery, extortion, contraband, running brothels and other government functions, the Somoza clan laid claim to the lion's share of Nicaragua's land and businesses.

When Anastasio Somoza II was overthrown by the Sandinistas in July 1979, he fled into exile leaving behind a country in which two-thirds of the population earned less than $300 a year. Upon his arrival in Miami, Somoza admitted to being worth $100 million. A US intelligence report, however, placed it at $900 million.

read more

Who are currently bogged down in 3 wars at the moment and talking about starting 2 more?

Who are you fooling, young man?

20Cent

Denerick wrote: »

Really? No offence, but have you actually read into what happens in Venezuala, or do you just lap up everything indymedia spout at you?

I'm not the one with the extreme view of him. He seems like most leaders flawed and all.
Excuse me for being skeptical but most stories about him turn out to be untrue.
Sands story about Haiti is not true but was widely reported.
They change the constitution to allow more than two terms and it is reported that he has made himself President for life.
First past the post is used in many countries not considered dictatorships.
He criticises the media its reported that he is shutting places down.
He gets kidnapped and a coup is attempted and he still is portrayed as the bad guy in that situation.
etc etc..........

Bringing people out of poverty, education for those who would never have access to it, using oil resources for the people instead of a tiny few. All good things.

If he ignores election results then we can start calling him a dictator.

southsiderosie

pablo_escobar wrote: »

read more

Who are currently bogged down in 3 wars at the moment and talking about starting 2 more?

Who are you fooling, young man?

A) not a young man

Why won't you address the issue at hand: HUGO CHAVEZ?!?!?!

pablo_escobar

A) not a young man

Why won't you address the issue at hand: HUGO CHAVEZ?!?!?!

The issue at hand?

You're criticising Hugo Chavez while the US have destroyed countless countries across the globe.

Either you're clueless on the history or highly ...

Let's discuss Islam Karimov? or the Saudi Royal Family.

Karimov has been in power for 20 years in Uzbekistan, he orders journalists and opponents to be jailed and tortured alive.Sometimes boiling them in water.

But you know what? he's a friend of the US and does the media ever want to talk about him? no strangely.. :rolleyes:

He is allowing the US military to use Uzbekistan as a supply route because Pakistan is no longer any secure..why? because the US are actively bombing pakistani people.

You need to get your own affairs in order before you start criticizing other countries based mainly on lies from the US media.

Ireland's economy is a mess and you're more concerned about Chavez...
The US are at war with 3 countries and Chavez is just terrible, isn't he?

oh dear...

southsiderosie

20Cent wrote: »

How many political prisoners are there in Cuba or Venezuela?

20Cent wrote: »

You can't come up with anything that makes Chavez a dictator that does not happen in any every other country in the world.

20Cent wrote: »

I'm not the one with the extreme view of him. He seems like most leaders flawed and all.
Excuse me for being skeptical but most stories about him turn out to be untrue.
Sands story about Haiti is not true but was widely reported.
They change the constitution to allow more than two terms and it is reported that he has made himself President for life.
First past the post is used in many countries not considered dictatorships.
He criticises the media its reported that he is shutting places down.
He gets kidnapped and a coup is attempted and he still is portrayed as the bad guy in that situation.
etc etc..........

Bringing people out of poverty, education for those who would never have access to it, using oil resources for the people instead of a tiny few. All good things.

If he ignores election results then we can start calling him a dictator.

If you read my original post, I acknowledge that he has reduced poverty. However, in the process, he is destroying the oil industry that funds social welfare programs. Compare PDVSA to Petrobras - one is a global leader in drilling technology, and the other has to rely on its "evil imperialist" neighbor to process most of its crude. Not to mention his crushing any media outlet that is not friendly to his government, his ridiculously long, self-indulgent speeches, and his using the tools of democracy to destroy it from within.

Honestly, this is exactly why I stopped commenting on Chavez or Castro threads months ago. Certain people seem incapable of criticizing these regimes, no matter what. And others will always criticize them no matter what. So there is really no point in having a 'discussion' about it.

pablo_escobar

Honestly, this is exactly why I stopped commenting on Chavez or Castro threads months ago. Certain people seem incapable of criticizing these regimes, no matter what. And others will always criticize them no matter what. So there is really no point in having a 'discussion' about it.

Well, it would certainly help to know what you're talking about.

I find you and other chavez hater comments to be highly superficial and derived almost entirely from media pundits who are completely ignorant of reality.

southsiderosie

20Cent wrote: »

How many political prisoners are there in Cuba or Venezuela?

20Cent wrote: »

You can't come up with anything that makes Chavez a dictator that does not happen in any every other country in the world.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

The issue at hand?

You're criticising Hugo Chavez while the US have destroyed countless countries across the globe.

Either you're clueless on the history or highly ...

Let's discuss Islam Karimov? or the Saudi Royal Family.

Karimov has been in power for 20 years in Uzbekistan, he orders journalists and opponents to be jailed and tortured alive.Sometimes boiling them in water.

But you know what? he's a friend of the US and does the media ever want to talk about him? no strangely.. :rolleyes:

He is allowing the US military to use Uzbekistan as a supply route because Pakistan is no longer any secure..why? because the US are actively bombing pakistani people.

You need to get your own affairs in order before you start criticizing other countries based mainly on lies from the US media.

Ireland's economy is a mess and you're more concerned about Chavez...
The US are at war with 3 countries and Chavez is just terrible, isn't he?

oh dear...

This is a thread about Hugo Chavez. If you want to start one about US foreign policy or the state of the Irish economy go ahead. I will be happy to jump in with a critique.

I don't read US papers for news on Latin America. And as I have stated previously, I have lived in the region, and formed my own opinions about it. And, gee, silly me, I came away with a different perspective than the one that left-wing English-language media comes up with.

But go ahead, spin away.

pablo_escobar

This should be a thread exposing double standards and hypocrisy at it's finest.

Let's talk about the Saudi Royal family...in power 40 years, no elections and who are constantly up their backside? Even the president bows to him...it's hilarious.

southsiderosie

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Well, it would certainly help to know what you're talking about.

I find you and other chavez hater comments to be highly superficial and derived almost entirely from media pundits who are completely ignorant of reality.

Please tell me where any of the specific comments I made about the Chavez or Castro regimes are wrong, and I will retract my comments. Until then I won't be bothered responding to you.

And BTW I'm curious... Do you speak Spanish? Have you been to Latin America? Have you met political dissidents and/or government officials? If not, where do YOU get your information from? Normally I don't call people out personally on threads but, frankly, your posts are asking for it.

20Cent

southsiderosie wrote: »

If you read my original post, I acknowledge that he has reduced poverty. However, in the process, he is destroying the oil industry that funds social welfare programs. Compare PDVSA to Petrobras - one is a global leader in drilling technology, and the other has to rely on its "evil imperialist" neighbor to process most of its crude. Not to mention his crushing any media outlet that is not friendly to his government, his ridiculously long, self-indulgent speeches, and his using the tools of democracy to destroy it from within.

Honestly, this is exactly why I stopped commenting on Chavez or Castro threads months ago. Certain people seem incapable of criticizing these regimes, no matter what. And others will always criticize them no matter what. So there is really no point in having a 'discussion' about it.

How is he destroying the oil industry?

The only media outlet he "crushed" that I'm aware of is revoking the licence of one tv station to broadcast on the public airwaves, they can still broadcast on cable. This after a lengthy legal battle and the station was involved in a coup. Not exactly the actions of a tyrant.

Scofflaw

pablo_escobar wrote: »

This should be a thread exposing double standards and hypocrisy at it's finest.

Let's talk about the Saudi Royal family...in power 40 years, no elections and who are constantly up their backside? Even the president bows to him...it's hilarious.

Unless the Saudi royal family are called Hugo Chavez, this seems a fairly blatant attempt to derail the thread. Please desist.

moderately,
Scofflaw

pablo_escobar

southsiderosie wrote: »

Please tell me where any of the specific comments I made about the Chavez or Castro regimes are wrong, and I will retract my comments. Until then I won't be bothered responding to you.

And BTW I'm curious... Do you speak Spanish? Have you been to Latin America? Have you met political dissidents and/or government officials? If not, where do YOU get your information from? Normally I don't call people out personally on threads but, frankly, your posts are asking for it.

The US don't like Chavez because he nationalized the oil industry preventing the corporatocracy from exploiting the people and raw materials of Venezuela.

The corporatocracy in response attempted to remove Chavez in the 2002 coup and have been establishing a larger military presence in Colombia, Venezuela's neighbor.

The US media have spent an enormous amount of energy and effort in demonizing Chavez..the same US media owned by the corporatocracy.

Why not discuss 'dictators' that the US do support?

Anything less is hypocrisy.

pablo_escobar

Scofflaw wrote: »

Unless the Saudi royal family are called Hugo Chavez, this seems a fairly blatant attempt to derail the thread. Please desist.

moderately,
Scofflaw

If I were to post individual threads on US interference with South American countries over the last 60 years, we might need to start a sub forum dedicated to it all.

But I know because of ignorance, we've only got 1 thread, maybe 2 at the most which is pathetic.

southsiderosie

pablo_escobar wrote: »

The US don't like Chavez because he nationalized the oil industry preventing the corporatocracy from exploiting the people and raw materials of Venezuela.

The corporatocracy in response attempted to remove Chavez in the 2002 coup and have been establishing a larger military presence in Colombia, Venezuela's neighbor.

The US media have spent an enormous amount of energy and effort in demonizing Chavez..the same US media owned by the corporatocracy.

Why not discuss 'dictators' that the US do support?

Anything less is hypocrisy.

US foreign policy has no effect on what Chavez does within his own borders, especially given that Venezuela is an oil state (for now), so let's address the issue at hand.

PDVSA was a national company before Chavez came into power; the difference is in how the revenues are used. Chavez has directed more revenues to social spending, but this has left the company less able to reinvest in exploration and production, and hurt its long-term viability; oil production has declined, and with global prices lower, the future of VZ's oil revenues looks even more bleak. In 2002, state managers and the oil workers trade union rebelled against the regime, and have been replaced with party loyalists; this was a huge loss in human capital for the company. This is not to mention the fact that international investors are spooked by the regime, especially after the government imposed price controls on some goods.

And, again, for all of the anti-Americanism, Chavez relies on the US to buy and refine his oil. Care to address this point? Or my questions about where you get your information from, Pablo ? (BTW, nice one - naming yourself after a ****ing drug lord, yeah, power to the people :rolleyes:)