78,857 non irish nationals claiming benefit in Ireland

paky · 01-09-2010 11:31PM #1

I find this to be an incredible sum of people to be paying benefits too. surely payments should cease to non irish nationals if they cant find work within three months. why should the irish tax payer fork out this money to immigrants? honestly like?
what an absolute waste of money

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/unemployment-still-on-the-rise-2320326.html

yermanoffthetv · 02-09-2010 12:29AM

It just says foreign nationals, doesnt state where there from. If there from the EU countries then you cant deport them because of EU law. Given the level of immigration during the celtic tiger this shouldnt really shock you. Also why shouldnt they get benifits? If they worked and payed their stamps then they are fully entitled to what theyre getting. Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

mikemac · 02-09-2010 12:42AM

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

We have thousands of students from Asia, mainly China in Ireland on English language courses.
Students restricted to working 20 hours per week on a student visa.

Some English language schools are little more then shell companies and many retail employers give more then 20 hours per week to non EU staff on student visas.

yermanoffthetv · 02-09-2010 01:15AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

We have thousands of students from Asia, mainly China in Ireland on English language courses.
Students restricted to working 20 hours per week on a student visa.

Some English language schools are little more then shell companies and many retail employers give more then 20 hours per week to non EU staff on student visas.

If you read my post it says work permit not student visa. If you can prove any of the rest of the things you mention then your welcome to report it.

mikemac · 02-09-2010 01:20AM

Your post doesn't say anything but it reads about work permits

A student visa can permit a student to work 20 hours a week, much the same as a limited work permit imo but then that's just me

paky · 02-09-2010 02:36AM

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

It just says foreign nationals, doesnt state where there from. If there from the EU countries then you cant deport them because of EU law. Given the level of immigration during the celtic tiger this shouldnt really shock you. Also why shouldnt they get benifits? If they worked and payed their stamps then they are fully entitled to what theyre getting. Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

What do you mean entitled to it? Its not a retirement fund. If we cant employ the 300,000 plus irish we cant employ these guys. what about priorities? does it mean anything to be irish in your own country anymore?

yermanoffthetv · 02-09-2010 02:47AM

paky wrote: »

What do you mean entitled to it? Its not a retirement fund. If we cant employ the 300,000 plus irish we cant employ these guys. what about priorities? does it mean anything to be irish in your own country anymore?

Read the next sentence :rolleyes:

nesf · 02-09-2010 04:09AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Your post doesn't say anything but it reads about work permits

A student visa can permit a student to work 20 hours a week, much the same as a limited work permit imo but then that's just me

Seriously, work permits are a very specific legal document. Please don't try and construe limited working rights granted by student visas as being equivalent, they're really a very different thing.

Zambia · 02-09-2010 06:35AM

One would need to see the breakdown of the Non nationals.

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

c montgomery · 02-09-2010 06:58AM

Zambia232 wrote: »

One would need to see the breakdown of the Non nationals.

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

Thats the problem!

theg81der · 02-09-2010 07:11AM

I think you`d find the vast majority of this figure is European citizens to whom we have an obligation (as people voted for the EU) to provide welfare for.

Having worked with student permits I know none of them are included in that figure as controls are very tight. I also imagine that African migrantsare not included as they are paid by the Health Board.

The problem as I see it is that alot of the EU migrants are not infact residing here while claiming.

celticbest · 02-09-2010 07:44AM

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

It just says foreign nationals, doesnt state where there from. If there from the EU countries then you cant deport them because of EU law. Given the level of immigration during the celtic tiger this shouldnt really shock you. Also why shouldnt they get benifits? If they worked and payed their stamps then they are fully entitled to what theyre getting. Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

It seems you can, France have : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11020429 , if we don't have the money to support the level of Foreign National's on Welfare then the EU should make up the required monies or we should start deporting.

celticbest · 02-09-2010 07:48AM

theg81der wrote: »

The problem as I see it is that alot of the EU migrants are not infact residing here while claiming.

+1, it's easy for them to come over once a month on a cheap Ryanair flight to sign on.

There movements in and out of the country should be monitored, with the help of the UK government in the 6 counties - (if they think leaving from across the border would go unseen).

If they are out of the Country more than in it then there Benefits are stopped.

bamboozle · 02-09-2010 07:55AM

Zambia232 wrote: »

One would need to see the breakdown of the Non nationals.

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

i dont think residency is the requirement to be met to qualify for welfare, i thought non-nationals had to have worked here for a specified amount of time to build up the necessary prsi credits to qualify for welfare.

lugha · 02-09-2010 08:02AM

theg81der wrote: »

The problem as I see it is that alot of the EU migrants are not infact residing here while claiming.

celticbest wrote: »

+1, it's easy for them to come over once a month on a cheap Ryanair flight to sign on.

There movements in and out of the country should be monitored, with the help of the UK government in the 6 counties - (if they think leaving from across the border would go unseen).

As an aside, if you think about it, it does not make sense to put scarce resources into enforcing residency laws. If they are on welfare, they are not net contributors to the economy, so if you compel them to live here, that will just put additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.) no?

Also OP, if you were unfortunate enough to lose your job, would you be willing to lead my example and return to Belfast?

celticbest · 02-09-2010 08:07AM

lugha wrote: »

As an aside, if you think about it, it does not make sense to put scarce resources into enforcing residency laws. If they are on welfare, they are not net contributors to the economy, so if you compel them to live here, that will just put additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.) no?

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

zeds alive · 02-09-2010 08:08AM

A foreign national has to WORK and PAY 104 prsi contributions before being entitled to any social welfare , they cant just move here and go on the dole nor can the sit on their arses for 2 years and do nothing while waiting for the dole , they must work and pay prsi , if they have paid their prsi they are entitled to the dole , the same rule for you were in any EU country you would have the same entitlements.

Zambia232 wrote: »

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think residency is the requirement to be met to qualify for welfare, i thought non-nationals had to have worked here for a specified amount of time to build up the necessary prsi credits to qualify for welfare.

Padraig Mor · 02-09-2010 08:09AM

theg81der wrote: »

I think you`d find the vast majority of this figure is European citizens to whom we have an obligation (as people voted for the EU) to provide welfare for. .

I think you'll actually find the largest group is people who have moved here from the UK (often many years ago).

edit: apologies, I read theg81der's post as saying "Eastern European citizens".....

zeds alive · 02-09-2010 08:10AM

celticbest wrote: »

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

No its not , unless they have paid their prsi.

lugha · 02-09-2010 08:13AM

celticbest wrote: »

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

Yes, but because our welfare rates are very generous compared to some EU states, if you say to claimants, you either live here or make to with the welfare in the state in which you do live, then is it not likely that many will go with option one?

zeds alive · 02-09-2010 08:14AM

lugha wrote: »

As an aside, if you think about it, it does not make sense to put scarce resources into enforcing residency laws. If they are on welfare, they are not net contributors to the economy, so if you compel them to live here, that will just put additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.) no?

They were net contributors to the economey through vat/income tax/prsi . if they are on welfare and puttting "additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.)" they are only getting back what they put into while working.

celticbest · 02-09-2010 08:16AM

celticbest wrote: »

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

zeds alive wrote: »

No its not , unless they have paid their prsi.

I'm just getting more and more confused.......

Please explain exactly why should we pay there welfare if they are not resident here?

Do you think France or Germany would pay my welfare while living in Ireland, I think not.

I know one or two EU foreign nationals renting in my estate you have not worked a day since they arrived here yet get there house paid for & get benefits of some kind weekly from the state, so why do people say you need two years RSI payments to collect welfare?

lugha · 02-09-2010 08:19AM

zeds alive wrote: »

They were net contributors to the economey through vat/income tax/prsi . if they are on welfare and puttting "additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.)" they are only getting back what they put into while working.

But my point is why should we be so insistent that such people reside in the state? Whatever about the legality of it, are we not better off to let them make their claims here but utilize the public resources in their home country, if this is what they choose?

celticbest · 02-09-2010 08:21AM

lugha wrote: »

But my point is why should we be so insistent that such people reside in the state? Whatever about the legality of it, are we not better off to let them make their claims here but utilize the public resources in their home country, if this is what they choose?

No, because we're just giving tax payers money straight to another state, at least here some of the money is recouped through VAT etc. when they buy food & clothes.

zeds alive · 02-09-2010 08:24AM

lugha wrote: »

Yes, but because our welfare rates are very generous compared to some EU states,

Our welfare rates are genrous compaird to Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia
This is how our rates compair to other EU countries [FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Luxembourg - €21,346
Denmark - €18,302
Netherlands - €15,758
France - €15,605
Portugal - €14,323
Belgium - €12,415
Finland - €12,339
Austria - €12,212
Sweden - €[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]11,924 [/FONT][/FONT]
Germany €11,821
Italy - €11,179
Spain - €10,522
[/FONT][/FONT]Ireland - €9,662
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Greece €4,407
UK €3,631
[/FONT][/FONT]

lugha · 02-09-2010 08:26AM

celticbest wrote: »

No, because we're just giving tax payers money straight to another state, at least here some of the money is recouped through VAT etc. when they buy food & clothes.

But surely such gains wouldn't cover the cost of them (and perhaps their children) being here? If we could run the country on VAT takings, why are we paying income tax?

lugha · 02-09-2010 08:35AM

zeds alive wrote: »

Our welfare rates are genrous compaird to Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia

So citizens of these countries are likely to be the ones who claim without residing here, and citizens of other EU countries are not. Not clear what your point is?

Look, there are 3 options with respect to people from these countries who have welfare entitlements in this one.

1. They could voluntarily elect to return to their home country and seek work there, renouncing their entitlements here.
2. They could effectively return to their home country but continue to claim welfare here, illegally.
3. The could stay here and perhaps bring or start a family here and continue to claim welfare, legally.

From the selfish POV of this state, option 1 is obviously the best for us. All I am saying is that option 2 is actually better for us than option 3.

zeds alive · 02-09-2010 08:37AM

celticbest wrote: »

I'm just getting more and more confused.......

Please explain exactly why should we pay there welfare if they are not resident here?

Do you think France or Germany would pay my welfare while living in Ireland, I think not.

I know one or two EU foreign nationals renting in my estate you have not worked a day since they arrived here yet get there house paid for & get benefits of some kind weekly from the state, so why do people say you need two years RSI payments to collect welfare?

It's possible that they have been passed on someones Social welfare card after they left the country and are continuing the claim. If in doubt do the right thing and report them , don't make assumptions based on the fact that they are foreign nationals and complain about it on boards.

celticbest · 02-09-2010 08:40AM

zeds alive wrote: »

It's possible that they have been passed on someones Social welfare card after they left the country and are continuing the claim. If in doubt do the right thing and report them , don't make assumptions based on the fact that they are foreign nationals and complain about it on boards.

They are fully above board, I know this for a fact, all I'm saying is you never had to have contributed to the state in order to receive payments from it.

zeds alive · 02-09-2010 08:42AM

lugha wrote: »

So citizens of these countries are likely to be the ones who claim without residing here, and citizens of other EU countries are not. Not clear what your point is?

I was replying to your point about how generous our welfare system is , as you can see its not compared to others. I edited my post accordingly.

lugha wrote: »

Look, there are 3 options with respect to people from these countries who have welfare entitlements in this one.

1. They could voluntarily elect to return to their home country and seek work there, renouncing their entitlements here.
2. They could effectively return to their home country but continue to claim welfare here, illegally.
3. The could stay here and perhaps bring or start a family here and continue to claim welfare, legally.

From the selfish POV of this state, option 1 is obviously the best for us. All I am saying is that option 2 is actually better for us than option 3.

No they are not 3 valid options within the current legislation, those are 3 options that suit you.

Callan57 · 02-09-2010 08:45AM

zeds alive wrote: »

It's possible that they have been passed on someones Social welfare card after they left the country and are continuing the claim. If in doubt do the right thing and report them , don't make assumptions based on the fact that they are foreign nationals and complain about it on boards.

Surely this is an enforcement issue ... and I'm sure young Dev is on to it!:mad:

78,857 non irish nationals claiming benefit in Ireland

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