78,857 non irish nationals claiming benefit in Ireland

paky

I find this to be an incredible sum of people to be paying benefits too. surely payments should cease to non irish nationals if they cant find work within three months. why should the irish tax payer fork out this money to immigrants? honestly like?
what an absolute waste of money

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/unemployment-still-on-the-rise-2320326.html

yermanoffthetv

It just says foreign nationals, doesnt state where there from. If there from the EU countries then you cant deport them because of EU law. Given the level of immigration during the celtic tiger this shouldnt really shock you. Also why shouldnt they get benifits? If they worked and payed their stamps then they are fully entitled to what theyre getting. Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

mikemac

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

We have thousands of students from Asia, mainly China in Ireland on English language courses.
Students restricted to working 20 hours per week on a student visa.

Some English language schools are little more then shell companies and many retail employers give more then 20 hours per week to non EU staff on student visas.

yermanoffthetv

feelingstressed wrote: »

We have thousands of students from Asia, mainly China in Ireland on English language courses.
Students restricted to working 20 hours per week on a student visa.

Some English language schools are little more then shell companies and many retail employers give more then 20 hours per week to non EU staff on student visas.

If you read my post it says work permit not student visa. If you can prove any of the rest of the things you mention then your welcome to report it.

mikemac

Your post doesn't say anything but it reads about work permits

A student visa can permit a student to work 20 hours a week, much the same as a limited work permit imo but then that's just me

paky

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

It just says foreign nationals, doesnt state where there from. If there from the EU countries then you cant deport them because of EU law. Given the level of immigration during the celtic tiger this shouldnt really shock you. Also why shouldnt they get benifits? If they worked and payed their stamps then they are fully entitled to what theyre getting. Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

What do you mean entitled to it? Its not a retirement fund. If we cant employ the 300,000 plus irish we cant employ these guys. what about priorities? does it mean anything to be irish in your own country anymore?

yermanoffthetv

paky wrote: »

What do you mean entitled to it? Its not a retirement fund. If we cant employ the 300,000 plus irish we cant employ these guys. what about priorities? does it mean anything to be irish in your own country anymore?

Read the next sentence :rolleyes:

nesf

feelingstressed wrote: »

Your post doesn't say anything but it reads about work permits

A student visa can permit a student to work 20 hours a week, much the same as a limited work permit imo but then that's just me

Seriously, work permits are a very specific legal document. Please don't try and construe limited working rights granted by student visas as being equivalent, they're really a very different thing.

Zambia

One would need to see the breakdown of the Non nationals.

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

c montgomery

Zambia232 wrote: »

One would need to see the breakdown of the Non nationals.

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

Thats the problem!

theg81der

I think you`d find the vast majority of this figure is European citizens to whom we have an obligation (as people voted for the EU) to provide welfare for.

Having worked with student permits I know none of them are included in that figure as controls are very tight. I also imagine that African migrantsare not included as they are paid by the Health Board.

The problem as I see it is that alot of the EU migrants are not infact residing here while claiming.

celticbest

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

It just says foreign nationals, doesnt state where there from. If there from the EU countries then you cant deport them because of EU law. Given the level of immigration during the celtic tiger this shouldnt really shock you. Also why shouldnt they get benifits? If they worked and payed their stamps then they are fully entitled to what theyre getting. Work permits for people coming in from outside the EU are practically not being issued at the moment except for specialised and essential positions.

It seems you can, France have : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11020429 , if we don't have the money to support the level of Foreign National's on Welfare then the EU should make up the required monies or we should start deporting.

celticbest

theg81der wrote: »

The problem as I see it is that alot of the EU migrants are not infact residing here while claiming.

+1, it's easy for them to come over once a month on a cheap Ryanair flight to sign on.

There movements in and out of the country should be monitored, with the help of the UK government in the 6 counties - (if they think leaving from across the border would go unseen).

If they are out of the Country more than in it then there Benefits are stopped.

bamboozle

Zambia232 wrote: »

One would need to see the breakdown of the Non nationals.

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

i dont think residency is the requirement to be met to qualify for welfare, i thought non-nationals had to have worked here for a specified amount of time to build up the necessary prsi credits to qualify for welfare.

lugha

theg81der wrote: »

The problem as I see it is that alot of the EU migrants are not infact residing here while claiming.

celticbest wrote: »

+1, it's easy for them to come over once a month on a cheap Ryanair flight to sign on.

There movements in and out of the country should be monitored, with the help of the UK government in the 6 counties - (if they think leaving from across the border would go unseen).

As an aside, if you think about it, it does not make sense to put scarce resources into enforcing residency laws. If they are on welfare, they are not net contributors to the economy, so if you compel them to live here, that will just put additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.) no?

Also OP, if you were unfortunate enough to lose your job, would you be willing to lead my example and return to Belfast?

celticbest

lugha wrote: »

As an aside, if you think about it, it does not make sense to put scarce resources into enforcing residency laws. If they are on welfare, they are not net contributors to the economy, so if you compel them to live here, that will just put additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.) no?

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

zeds alive

A foreign national has to WORK and PAY 104 prsi contributions before being entitled to any social welfare , they cant just move here and go on the dole nor can the sit on their arses for 2 years and do nothing while waiting for the dole , they must work and pay prsi , if they have paid their prsi they are entitled to the dole , the same rule for you were in any EU country you would have the same entitlements.

Zambia232 wrote: »

Surely after 2 years residency a non national is entitled to Welfare. So I fail to see the issue.

bamboozle wrote: »

i dont think residency is the requirement to be met to qualify for welfare, i thought non-nationals had to have worked here for a specified amount of time to build up the necessary prsi credits to qualify for welfare.

Padraig Mor

theg81der wrote: »

I think you`d find the vast majority of this figure is European citizens to whom we have an obligation (as people voted for the EU) to provide welfare for. .

I think you'll actually find the largest group is people who have moved here from the UK (often many years ago).


edit: apologies, I read theg81der's post as saying "Eastern European citizens".....

zeds alive

celticbest wrote: »

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

No its not , unless they have paid their prsi.

lugha

celticbest wrote: »

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

Yes, but because our welfare rates are very generous compared to some EU states, if you say to claimants, you either live here or make to with the welfare in the state in which you do live, then is it not likely that many will go with option one?

zeds alive

lugha wrote: »

As an aside, if you think about it, it does not make sense to put scarce resources into enforcing residency laws. If they are on welfare, they are not net contributors to the economy, so if you compel them to live here, that will just put additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.) no?

They were net contributors to the economey through vat/income tax/prsi . if they are on welfare and puttting "additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.)" they are only getting back what they put into while working.

celticbest

celticbest wrote: »

If they are not resident here then it is the responibility of the state in which they are currently resident to provide for them.

zeds alive wrote: »

No its not , unless they have paid their prsi.

I'm just getting more and more confused.......

Please explain exactly why should we pay there welfare if they are not resident here?

Do you think France or Germany would pay my welfare while living in Ireland, I think not.

I know one or two EU foreign nationals renting in my estate you have not worked a day since they arrived here yet get there house paid for & get benefits of some kind weekly from the state, so why do people say you need two years RSI payments to collect welfare?

lugha

zeds alive wrote: »

They were net contributors to the economey through vat/income tax/prsi . if they are on welfare and puttting "additional strain on public resources (education, health, infrastructure etc.)" they are only getting back what they put into while working.

But my point is why should we be so insistent that such people reside in the state? Whatever about the legality of it, are we not better off to let them make their claims here but utilize the public resources in their home country, if this is what they choose?

celticbest

lugha wrote: »

But my point is why should we be so insistent that such people reside in the state? Whatever about the legality of it, are we not better off to let them make their claims here but utilize the public resources in their home country, if this is what they choose?

No, because we're just giving tax payers money straight to another state, at least here some of the money is recouped through VAT etc. when they buy food & clothes.

zeds alive

lugha wrote: »

Yes, but because our welfare rates are very generous compared to some EU states,

Our welfare rates are genrous compaird to Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia
This is how our rates compair to other EU countries [FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Luxembourg - €21,346
Denmark - €18,302
Netherlands - €15,758
France - €15,605
Portugal - €14,323
Belgium - €12,415
Finland - €12,339
Austria - €12,212
Sweden - €[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]11,924 [/FONT][/FONT]
Germany €11,821
Italy - €11,179
Spain - €10,522
[/FONT][/FONT]Ireland - €9,662
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Greece €4,407
UK €3,631
[/FONT][/FONT]

lugha

celticbest wrote: »

No, because we're just giving tax payers money straight to another state, at least here some of the money is recouped through VAT etc. when they buy food & clothes.

But surely such gains wouldn't cover the cost of them (and perhaps their children) being here? If we could run the country on VAT takings, why are we paying income tax?

lugha

zeds alive wrote: »

Our welfare rates are genrous compaird to Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia

So citizens of these countries are likely to be the ones who claim without residing here, and citizens of other EU countries are not. Not clear what your point is?

Look, there are 3 options with respect to people from these countries who have welfare entitlements in this one.

1. They could voluntarily elect to return to their home country and seek work there, renouncing their entitlements here.
2. They could effectively return to their home country but continue to claim welfare here, illegally.
3. The could stay here and perhaps bring or start a family here and continue to claim welfare, legally.

From the selfish POV of this state, option 1 is obviously the best for us. All I am saying is that option 2 is actually better for us than option 3.

zeds alive

celticbest wrote: »

I'm just getting more and more confused.......

Please explain exactly why should we pay there welfare if they are not resident here?

Do you think France or Germany would pay my welfare while living in Ireland, I think not.

I know one or two EU foreign nationals renting in my estate you have not worked a day since they arrived here yet get there house paid for & get benefits of some kind weekly from the state, so why do people say you need two years RSI payments to collect welfare?

It's possible that they have been passed on someones Social welfare card after they left the country and are continuing the claim. If in doubt do the right thing and report them , don't make assumptions based on the fact that they are foreign nationals and complain about it on boards.

celticbest

zeds alive wrote: »

It's possible that they have been passed on someones Social welfare card after they left the country and are continuing the claim. If in doubt do the right thing and report them , don't make assumptions based on the fact that they are foreign nationals and complain about it on boards.

They are fully above board, I know this for a fact, all I'm saying is you never had to have contributed to the state in order to receive payments from it.

zeds alive

lugha wrote: »

So citizens of these countries are likely to be the ones who claim without residing here, and citizens of other EU countries are not. Not clear what your point is?

I was replying to your point about how generous our welfare system is , as you can see its not compared to others. I edited my post accordingly.

lugha wrote: »

Look, there are 3 options with respect to people from these countries who have welfare entitlements in this one.

1. They could voluntarily elect to return to their home country and seek work there, renouncing their entitlements here.
2. They could effectively return to their home country but continue to claim welfare here, illegally.
3. The could stay here and perhaps bring or start a family here and continue to claim welfare, legally.

From the selfish POV of this state, option 1 is obviously the best for us. All I am saying is that option 2 is actually better for us than option 3.

No they are not 3 valid options within the current legislation, those are 3 options that suit you.

Callan57

zeds alive wrote: »

It's possible that they have been passed on someones Social welfare card after they left the country and are continuing the claim. If in doubt do the right thing and report them , don't make assumptions based on the fact that they are foreign nationals and complain about it on boards.

Surely this is an enforcement issue ... and I'm sure young Dev is on to it!:mad:

zeds alive

celticbest wrote: »

They are fully above board, I know this for a fact, all I'm saying is you never had to have contributed to the state in order to receive payments from it.

Yes you do... read the rule it's there in black and white.

Jobseeker's Benefit Entitlement and Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) contributions

To receive a JB payment it is necessary to satisfy the PRSI contributions criteria in either of the following ways:
1.

• Have 104 weeks paid PRSI contributions since starting work
• Have 39 weeks paid or credited PRSI contributions in the Relevant Tax Year* (From January 2009 13 must be paid either in the relevant tax year or certain other periods)

OR

2.

• Have 104 weeks paid PRSI contributions since starting work
• Have 26 weeks paid PRSI contributions in the Relevant Tax Year
• Have 26 weeks paid PRSI contributions in the Tax Year prior to the Relevant Tax Year

* The relevant tax year is the tax year two years prior to the year you are making your claim for an unemployment payment. For making a claim for JB in 2010, the relevant tax year is 2008. The number of paid or credited PRSI contributions you made in 2008 determines your entitlement to a JB payment in 2010.
Duration of Payment

Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for a maximum of 12 months if a person has 260 or more PRSI contributions paid since first entering employment, after which time they may qualify for Jobseeker's Allowance. If a person has less than 260 PRSI paid contributions Jobseeker's Benefit will be paid for 9 months instead of the full 12 months.
A person who has 260 or more PRSI paid contributions and who is in a receipt of a JB payment prior to the 14th April 2008 will receive JB for 15 months. A person who has less than 260 PRSI paid contributions and who is in receipt of a JB payment prior to the 14th July 2008 will receive JB for 12 months.

lugha

zeds alive wrote: »

No they are not 3 valid options within the current legislation, those are 3 options that suit you.

OK, I'm evidently not doing a good job of conveying the point I am trying to make. Quittin' time.

johndaman66

I think we need to go back further in time to get to the root of the problem. Part of the Berty Ahern legacy if you will. I believe foreign nationals should not have being left into the country in the numbers that they were in the first place. It was a shortsighted solution to fill unsustainable job vaccancies in my opinion. Now many of them are claiming benefits....well you can't have your cake and eat it as they say. It seems that there are now controls in place to limit the number of citizens entering the state from certain other EU countries not that there would even be many of them entering anymore for that matter if the control was not in place. This should have being done much sooner.

I will make the point that I am not racist towards people from any country, race, race, religion or culture. I will judge every man or woman on their own personal merits. Also I will make the point that UK citizens are the most prevelant non Irish citizens in the state as many people fail to acknowledge that and it may not seem the case if you walk down the street.

mike65

Given that 10% of the states population is non-Irish is that such a large number right now?

zeds alive

lugha wrote: »

OK, I'm evidently not doing a good job of conveying the point I am trying to make. Quittin' time.

I understand you perfectly , its just your points are stupid.

lugha

zeds alive wrote: »

I understand you perfectly , its just your points are stupid.

With respect, I don't think you do. If you did, you would have realized that the fact that there are more generous welfare states in the EU was not relevant to the argument I was making, and you would not have made that point.
And I don't think you even read my post to which your replied that my 3 options were not valid, given than I explicitly stated that one of them was not legal.

irishh_bob

zeds alive wrote: »

Our welfare rates are genrous compaird to Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia
This is how our rates compair to other EU countries [FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]
[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]
[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Luxembourg - €21,346 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Denmark - €18,302 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Netherlands - €15,758 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]France - €15,605 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Portugal - €14,323 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Belgium - €12,415 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Finland - €12,339 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Austria - €12,212 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Sweden - €[FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman][FONT=Helvetica 55 Roman,Helvetica 55 Roman]11,924 [/FONT][/FONT]
Germany €11,821
Italy - €11,179
Spain - €10,522
[/FONT][/FONT]Ireland - €9,662
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light][FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]Greece €4,407 [/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica 45 Light,Helvetica 45 Light]UK €3,631 [/FONT]
[/FONT]

in most of those countries , you will only recieve those rates of wellfare for a set amount of time , different story in ireland

zeds alive

lugha wrote: »

With respect, I don't think you do. If you did, you would have realized that the fact that there are more generous welfare states in the EU was not relevant to the argument I was making, and you would not have made that point.
And I don't think you even read my post to which your replied that my 3 options were not valid, given than I explicitly stated that one of them was not legal.

you posted 3 opinions not 3 options.

zeds alive

irishh_bob wrote: »

in most of those countries , you will only recieve those rates of wellfare for a set amount of time

Proof?

celticbest

zeds alive wrote: »

Yes you do... read the rule it's there in black and white.

Jobseeker's Benefit Entitlement and Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) contributions

To receive a JB payment it is necessary to satisfy the PRSI contributions criteria in either of the following ways:
1.

• Have 104 weeks paid PRSI contributions since starting work
• Have 39 weeks paid or credited PRSI contributions in the Relevant Tax Year* (From January 2009 13 must be paid either in the relevant tax year or certain other periods)

OR

2.

• Have 104 weeks paid PRSI contributions since starting work
• Have 26 weeks paid PRSI contributions in the Relevant Tax Year
• Have 26 weeks paid PRSI contributions in the Tax Year prior to the Relevant Tax Year

* The relevant tax year is the tax year two years prior to the year you are making your claim for an unemployment payment. For making a claim for JB in 2010, the relevant tax year is 2008. The number of paid or credited PRSI contributions you made in 2008 determines your entitlement to a JB payment in 2010.
Duration of Payment

Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for a maximum of 12 months if a person has 260 or more PRSI contributions paid since first entering employment, after which time they may qualify for Jobseeker's Allowance. If a person has less than 260 PRSI paid contributions Jobseeker's Benefit will be paid for 9 months instead of the full 12 months.
A person who has 260 or more PRSI paid contributions and who is in a receipt of a JB payment prior to the 14th April 2008 will receive JB for 15 months. A person who has less than 260 PRSI paid contributions and who is in receipt of a JB payment prior to the 14th July 2008 will receive JB for 12 months.

If it not Jobseeker's Benefit they get then it is something else, as stated before they have never woked & are fully above board & I know that they receive a weekly payment from the state.

PS, sorry but I'm not up to speed on what different benefits are paid out by the state as I have never received any - I have worked all my Adult life.

zeds alive

celticbest wrote: »

If it not Jobseeker's Benefit they get then it is something else, as stated before they have never woked & are fully above board & I know that they receive a weekly payment from the state.

Then either your facts are wrong or they are bullsh1tting to you , and once again in my opinion it sounds suspicious... report it.

celticbest wrote: »

I have worked all my Adult life.

So have I , whats your point?

losthorizon

paky wrote: »

I find this to be an incredible sum of people to be paying benefits too. surely payments should cease to non irish nationals if they cant find work within three months. why should the irish tax payer fork out this money to immigrants? honestly like?
what an absolute waste of money

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/unemployment-still-on-the-rise-2320326.html

I wonder how many Irish people claim benefits abroad? More or less?

Guy:Incognito

zeds alive wrote: »

A foreign national has to WORK and PAY 104 prsi contributions before being entitled to any social welfare , they cant just move here and go on the dole nor can the sit on their arses for 2 years and do nothing while waiting for the dole , they must work and pay prsi , if they have paid their prsi they are entitled to the dole , the same rule for you were in any EU country you would have the same entitlements.

Fair enough it's anecdotal but how does that corresponde with the Roma I see in the post office on collection day but yet I have never encountered any in taxable employment?

mike65 wrote: »

Given that 10% of the states population is non-Irish is that such a large number right now?

Only if unemployment was around 800,000 no?

OhNoYouDidn't

mike65 wrote: »

Given that 10% of the states population is non-Irish is that such a large number right now?

Exactly.

I wonder what the number of Irish people on the scratch overseas is? A hell of a lot more than 78k I would wager.

You pay your stamps you are entitled to the dole. End of. PRSI is a social INSURANCE. This idea that people fly from Poland every week to collect €79 is laughable.

OhNoYouDidn't

Stekelly wrote: »

Only if unemployment was around 800,000 no?

As a percantage of the working age group its par for the course. Take out your under 18's, over 65's, ill and disabled and its a closer fit.

Guy:Incognito

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You pay your stamps you are entitled to the dole. End of. This idea that people fly from Poland every week to collect €79 is laughable.

€79? What happened to €196? Plus extra for kids. Plus rent allowance, fuel allowance, childrens allowance etc.

OhNoYouDidn't

Stekelly wrote: »

€79? What happened to €196?

Thats the very top rate. Even if they are entitled to that amount, the idea of welfare tourism has never been backed up with any evidence other than conspiracy theory. Like asylum seekers getting cars. File under fantasy

Guy:Incognito

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Like asylum seekers getting cars.

You see, some of them perpetuate this myth themselves. The examp,le I know of is a guy in work who was renting a house to an African woman and her kids. She paid him with welfare cheques. Then one day she arriives with her nice new car (2 or 3 year old) that she says was provided for her.

Possibly not an asylum seeker but buying people cars is not somethign the state should be doing.

OhNoYouDidn't

Stekelly wrote: »

You see, some of them perpetuate this myth themselves. The examp,le I know of is a guy in work who was renting a house to an African woman and her kids. She paid him with welfare cheques. Then one day she arriives with her nice new car (2 or 3 year old) that she says was provided for her.

Possibly not an asylum seeker but buying people cars is not somethign the state should be doing.

You see, that story isn't true....

Guy:Incognito

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You see, that story isn't true....

Well you'll have to take it up with the person claiming to be getting these things.

Surely you would think the immigrants would be working to dispell stories and rumours like this whether they are true or not, in an effort to reduce bad feelings in the country if nothing else?

.