"TUI calls on schoolbook publishers" to cop the f**k on

Wertz · 25-08-2010 09:06PM

Rest_Energy wrote: »

This pisses me off so much. When I was in school some of my teachers encouraged us to only get the books second-hand, they'd print out the extra bits from revised additions if they magically were needed (they never were).

What they did was technically copyright infringement and would be frowned on in a lot of schools....but I say fair play to them.

Another thing dreamt up by these publishers is the concept of workbooks...printed books costing many times more than a plain copy/foolscap but designed to be written in and hence used once and binned at end of year.

You know I have most of my LC books in a box someplace...I bet if I dug them out and comared to today's, the differences in the maths and sciences at least would be miniscule, at least in terms of text and content. I also fail to see how learning a european language can vary from year to year...the onl thing that should need occasional revision is history and perhaps geography.

Someone mentioned laptops...desirable, fragile and portable...how many get broken or nicked in a school setting if they were brought in? At least a book is hardwearing and if it goes for a walk, you're not talking about hundreds to replace it.

ascanbe · 25-08-2010 09:12PM

Are we still producing an adequate supply of wallpaper to cover all these books?

xOxSinéadxOx · 25-08-2010 09:16PM

It's ridiculous alright, was noticing it that my sister can't use any of my my old books they're all diferent now

up for anything · 25-08-2010 09:21PM

I paid €400 for first year books in 2007.
I paid €250 for second year books in 2008.
Another €150 odd for third year in 2009.
And €120 for transition year in 2010.
Dreading 2011.....

Just paid €400 for first year books - 2010.

Guess what! Only about three books that I could buy second hand and couldn't sell any of the first three years books on because they are no longer on the list. Rip off. Primary school books the same - caught sight of another schools book list for third class today - same as one of mine. That school had five books on their list - mine has about 15, for the same class!!!

Back when I went to school every primary school in the country used the same books and much the same in secondary. Don't they know there is a sodding recession.

Toto Wolfcastle · 25-08-2010 09:40PM

Ha new editions. You should see the state of some of the books we have to give the students under the book rental scheme. All 1st to 3rd years in my school get their books under the book rental scheme, apart from a few. Although the Irish course has changed a bit at Junior Cert level we still have to use the old books because of lack of funding. We can make do with them though I suppose and at least the parents save money. The newer versions are more user friendly though.

ordinary_girl · 25-08-2010 10:28PM

Wertz wrote: »

What they did was technically copyright infringement and would be frowned on in a lot of schools....but I say fair play to them.

Funnily enough they never actually needed to print anything out from the revised editions, the older editions had basically the same information as the newer ones, bar one or two more chapters that may have had more detail than in the older ones.

oceanclub · 25-08-2010 10:34PM

Wertz wrote: »

...and the great Folens conspiracy continues.

Googling Folens is a bit of a surprise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Folens

Albert Folens (1917-2003) was a Belgian-born publisher of educational materials in the Republic of Ireland. His company, Folens, is a major publisher of educational materials.

[...]

Hidden History: Ireland's Nazis, a two-part documentary series shown on RTÉ revealed his collaboration with the Third Reich. (The first part was broadcast on RTÉ 1 on January 7, 2007, the second on January 16). Juliette Folens, his widow, obtained a temporary High Court injunction to prevent the use of a 1987 interview with her husband on an ex parte basis. The Folens family issued a press release denying that Albert Folens was ever involved with Nazi war crimes, though he was a member of the Flemish Legion.[1] After the programme was broadcast, a letter containing a death threat was sent to Albert Folens' widow Juliette.

P.

Misanthrope · 25-08-2010 11:00PM

Terry wrote: »

You must be American.
Allow me to explain things in a term you may understand.
Shít costs more in Ireland.

My cousin just had to pay over €1,000 for books and uniforms between both of her children.

Also, we call them "Black boards" and not "Chalk boards". "Black" is not a bad word in Ireland,

I'm not American.
I was lowballing those figures because I wanted to understate the case,thinking that to most people the conservative estimate would be shocking enough.
It seems that most got the point,but you interpreted it as an opportunity to do some yank bashing.But you jumped the gun and sprinted all the way to epic failure once again because I am as Irish as a moving statue.
You also insinuated that I prefer to call blackboards, chalkboards, because I am motivated by racial prejudice.This is a wild and unfounded accusation.

I guess Terry, you must be the Forum Bully jumping right on the new boy's back.I don't get bullied Terry, especially not by someone who claims to be an alcoholic junkie with an Rx addiction to boot.You don't think I'd roll over for someone like that do you?

Keep pitching them kid and I'll keep knocking them out onto the street:rolleyes:

landsleaving · 25-08-2010 11:10PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

I'm not American.
I was lowballing those figures because I wanted to understate the case,thinking that to most people the conservative estimate would be shocking enough.
It seems that most got the point,but you interpreted it as an opportunity to do some yank bashing.But you jumped the gun and sprinted all the way to epic failure once again because I am as Irish as a moving statue.
You also insinuated that I prefer to call blackboards, chalkboards, because I am motivated by racial prejudice.This is a wild and unfounded accusation.

I guess Terry, you must be the Forum Bully jumping right on the new boy's back.I don't get bullied Terry, especially not by someone who claims to be an alcoholic junkie with an Rx addiction to boot.You don't think I'd roll over for someone like that do you?

Keep pitching them kid and I'll keep knocking them out onto the street:rolleyes:

We don't play baseball here... you just slipped up big time. :pac:

byhookorbycrook · 25-08-2010 11:10PM

errr..we actually call them whiteboards, I don't know of any school using chalk anymore, it's markers and whiteboards.

GTE · 25-08-2010 11:11PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

They're still using textbooks?

There's this new thing called the internets which is like a series of tubes.I think Al Gore invented it.Anyway I'm told it is not bound by the conventional limitations of the printing press, invented by one Joe Gutenburg in 1440.

Perhaps someone should look into this.

Oh for heavens sake cop on, thats not even good as a tongue in cheek remark. Secondary schools never had the funding to buy and develop their network of computers and software that would be needed for this. And dont suggest families should buy the computer.

"Oh no, the new *e-textbook* providers software needs a a critical update" Can you imagine a class room of 24 doing that?

1) They would never have it as just a plain old PDF so it would be their own format and program
2) The cost of this program would be a yearly maintenance cost
3) It plain and simple would never be done the way it should in this country.

Then add to that hardware failures
Lost USB keys,
The rain you have to walk through if you had a laptop.
The inherent one up manship that the kids would demand with the quality of their laptops. Standardised laptops maybe? No. It would go out to a company who would mess it up and rip everyone off.
Cost of installing a computer terminal per student to the current school buildings?
Electrical connection
Ethernet. Dont say wireless networking, all hell would break loose!
General IT costs of setting it up.
Damage and vandalism to equipment?
Computer competency from an early Secondary age would be essential and never guaranteed
Power cut?
Actually learning a whole syllabus off a computer screen? I would NEVER want to go near the current History syllabus on a laptop for example. Note taking would be night mare.

Its one thing to tell them to get their act together with regards to textbooks, saying that IT is the answer is only going to move the money making scam to a different format which for the most part is not needed.

Its a horrible problem which has the simplest answer in the world for me.

mike65 · 25-08-2010 11:14PM

How often does the text of Coriolanus or Lord of the Flies change? Have new rivers been discovered or new laws of physics? 2+2 still equals 4 surely?

Misanthrope · 25-08-2010 11:16PM

landsleaving wrote: »

We don't play baseball here... you just slipped up big time. :pac:

Eh............... ya you do.That's why Ireland has a national team.There was even a docu-movie made about them a few years back.You slipped up my friend, by assuming that you know everything.

Nice try.

landsleaving · 25-08-2010 11:18PM

Misanthrope wrote: »

Eh............... ya you do.That's why Ireland has a national team.There was even a docu-movie made about them a few years back.You slipped up my friend, by assuming that you know everything.

Nice try.

Why do I always forget, the internets are serious business.

But why did you say 'you' do and not 'we' do if you are Irish... AHA! :P

gaeilgegrinds1 · 25-08-2010 11:21PM

I'm a teacher. We have nothing to do with publishers in my school. Usually succeed in using old books and supplementing them, arrange fairs so students can buy books 2nd or 3rd hand. Very much alone though!

Misanthrope · 25-08-2010 11:27PM

bbk wrote: »

Oh for heavens sake cop on, thats not even good as a tongue in cheek remark. Secondary schools never had the funding to buy and develop their network of computers and software that would be needed for this. And dont suggest families should buy the computer.

"Oh no, the new *e-textbook* providers software needs a a critical update" Can you imagine a class room of 24 doing that?

1) They would never have it as just a plain old PDF so it would be their own format and program
2) The cost of this program would be a yearly maintenance cost
3) It plain and simple would never be done the way it should in this country.

Its one thing to tell them to get their act together with regards to textbooks, saying that IT is the answer is only going to move the money making scam to a different format which for the most part is not needed.

I would NEVER want to go near the current History syllabus on a laptop for example.

Its a horrible problem which has the simplest answer in the world for me.

And we'll have girls dancing at the crossroads as the men come in from the fields.....................

The money is not the issue here.Not when we stand by and watch crooked banks and CEOs swipe billions.The money is there.The 80 million that Sean Fitzpatrick diverted from Anglo would more than cover a pc for every desk.

Are you a technophobe, a Luddite?Are you aware that the rest of the world is moving on up while Irish children are trying to figure out which already obsolete dog eared pile of pulp they need to squander their parents money on?

So why don't the schools have the funding?Who's fault is it?Is that just the way it is and the way it'll always be.

As for families not being able to afford them.Most can afford cigarettes and alcohol and sky sports and a movie channel.It's about priorities.And your priority seems to be to adopt a never-can-win defeatist,and regressive outlook.....................................Best of luck with that.

Misanthrope · 25-08-2010 11:38PM

landsleaving wrote: »

Why do I always forget, the internets are serious business.

But why did you say 'you' do and not 'we' do if you are Irish... AHA! :P

Because I am in the States right now.If I was in Ireland with you,I'd refer to we.But I am not in Ireland,where you are, so there can be no we,until I get back............. 'kay?Get it now?Or is this a Ireland v USA thing for you?

I can't think of what i could do to allay your paranoia that I might be a yank posing as an Irishman.If you can come up with something, run it by me.It'd be nice to end this digression,started by Terry,the eh ...Wrestling Mod who ironically has a chip on his shoulder over America or the possibility one of it's citizens might be in here posting.
Do you really want to ride on his crazy train or can we just drop it and accept that I'm Irish?

landsleaving · 25-08-2010 11:42PM

Calm down man, it was pretty obviously a joke.

Although riding a crazy train sounds fun, lets do that.

GTE · 25-08-2010 11:45PM

My responses are in the red font and below the quote.

Misanthrope wrote: »

And we'll have girls dancing at the crossroads as the men come in from the fields.....................
Try to keep it on topic, you are only weakening my view of your argument with that tripe

The money is not the issue here.Not when we stand by and watch crooked banks and CEOs swipe billions.The money is there.The 80 million that Sean Fitzpatrick diverted from Anglo would more than cover a pc for every desk.
There is money rolling about like grass clippings in the Spring but we are talking about the here and now in this thread, and in the here and now the schools dont have the funding and they just didnt before hand
Are you a technophobe, a Luddite?Are you aware that the rest of the world is moving on up while Irish children are trying to figure out which already obsolete dog eared pile of pulp they need to squander their parents money on?
I do not suffer from technophobia by any means. If you would care to explain what your point meant as to back it up. That would be better then trying to be funny or witty about it in your language. The format in which its delivered isnt a problem. Arguments about the way its taught and the course content can be raised but whether it comes in a book or in a digital format is not of any real significance

So why don't the schools have the funding?Who's fault is it?Is that just the way it is and the way it'll always be.
Many reasons, not worth getting into here as it would derail a thread. With any luck it wont always be like that however money would be much better spend used to upgrade the PE department, Tech graph, Technology, Metalwork, Woodwork, General facilities and of course a top of the range computing department so our kids can get the education they need for the future with regards to IT

As for families not being able to afford them.Most can afford cigarettes and alcohol and sky sports and a movie channel.It's about priorities.And your priority seems to be to adopt a never-can-win defeatist,and regressive outlook.....................................Best of luck with that.

My outlook is realistic. Money would be used on the wrong thing if your idea of how subjects should be taught is realised.

There is no reason why the English and History department should suddenly become more technological. Teaching practices and course content would be what is needed to encourage those subjects.

Instead of giving everystudent a computer terminal investing the money in subjects like maths, physics, tech graph and others I mentioned and more would benefit from investments in technology but that is because having a teacher with a well written program like Crocodile clips to help explain and design electrical circuits is much better then reading the theory in books.

Misanthrope · 26-08-2010 12:02AM

landsleaving wrote: »

Calm down man, it was pretty obviously a joke.

Although riding a crazy train sounds fun, lets do that.

Sorry for overreacting.I'm a noob and I'm not familiar yet with most of the posters in here and since I've got nothing but (very poor) flak of one individual in particular, i might be a lil bit defensive.

Owen · 26-08-2010 12:08AM

I really don't get this. We have kids dragging heavy bags, and parents buying expensive books. The new Kindle which is only on sale this week is dirt cheap, really really cheap, and can store thousands of books. Wouldn't it be a lot better if every kid had a Kindle, and a copybook for notes and homework? Bags would be featherlite, and kids would learn a little bit about tech too, and any spinal issues from carrying large bags with constantly shifting centres of gravity would be done away with.

[EDIT] Plus the Kindle can be used for years too!

landsleaving · 26-08-2010 12:12AM

Misanthrope wrote: »

Sorry for overreacting.I'm a noob and I'm not familiar yet with most of the posters in here and since I've got nothing but (very poor) flak of one individual in particular, i might be a lil bit defensive.

Ah no worries, you weren't abusive or anything, just sticking up for yourself, and I read the other thread and saw it got a bit heated so I can see where you're coming from, didn't mean to make you feel like we were ganging up on you.

ascanbe · 26-08-2010 12:35AM

Misanthrope wrote: »

I'm not American.
I was lowballing those figures because I wanted to understate the case,thinking that to most people the conservative estimate would be shocking enough.
It seems that most got the point,but you interpreted it as an opportunity to do some yank bashing.But you jumped the gun and sprinted all the way to epic failure once again because I am as Irish as a moving statue.
You also insinuated that I prefer to call blackboards, chalkboards, because I am motivated by racial prejudice.This is a wild and unfounded accusation.

I guess Terry, you must be the Forum Bully jumping right on the new boy's back.I don't get bullied Terry, especially not by someone who claims to be an alcoholic junkie with an Rx addiction to boot.You don't think I'd roll over for someone like that do you?

Keep pitching them kid and I'll keep knocking them out onto the street:rolleyes:

I think he was intimating that your motivation in calling them chalkboards was 'political correctness'; for many people around here, that's a far worse crime.

Misanthrope · 26-08-2010 12:36AM

bbk wrote: »

My responses are in the red font and below the quote.

My outlook is realistic. Money would be used on the wrong thing if your idea of how subjects should be taught is realised.

There is no reason why the English and History department should suddenly become more technological. Teaching practices and course content would be what is needed to encourage those subjects.

Instead of giving everystudent a computer terminal investing the money in subjects like maths, physics, tech graph and others I mentioned and more would benefit from investments in technology but that is because having a teacher with a well written program like Crocodile clips to help explain and design electrical circuits is much better then reading the theory in books.

This is about our future not the present.The world is moving now at a frightening pace.Technologies are developing, merging,morphing, dying at an ever growing pace.Pretty soon,if you have to wait for a book to be written,printed and bound, you have lost the race.

Ireland is falling way way behind in education standards.We're going from being one of the best,in the 80s and early 90s to middle of the pack right now.We are slipping.

We must move with the times.Whenever we do it rewards us.Whenever we don't we suffer.

Maybe a laptop for every child is too much to ask.But so is asking them to spend thousands on books that are designed to be more obsolete than books already are.

We need a coordinated central database for our education system that is updated continuously and is interactive.That is essential.Such a resource could even be shared by a few countries.An interface would be required obviously, and it doesn't have to be a pc.
Something like a kindle could work.If a few leading nations adopted kindle , and made it the new standard for educational text, all others would follow and Kindles would be sold in massive volume until the next 'step up'.I'm sure if you ordered 100,000 Kindles you'd get some kind of trade discount.Do Folens give such a discount for their outdated books?I doubt it.

The last 2 universities I attended were moving to total computer and web based operation at least in my faculties.That was 10 years ago.I haven't purchased a book in over 12 years.I acquire everything online.I don't have time to hang around bookstores.Who does?Why are the big bookstore chains all folding or downsizing?Its a sign of the times.

I was in school when the USSR broke up, and overnight my geography books became obsolete.It was 2 years before we got an updated book.That was fine then as most schools weren't online.

Picture that scenario today.The only thing to do would be accumulate the new information on the office web connection and then run off photocopies to the entire school as an amendment to the obsolete books.Is that where we want to be?

Terry · 26-08-2010 12:58AM

Misanthrope wrote: »

I'm not American.
I was lowballing those figures because I wanted to understate the case,thinking that to most people the conservative estimate would be shocking enough.
It seems that most got the point,but you interpreted it as an opportunity to do some yank bashing.But you jumped the gun and sprinted all the way to epic failure once again because I am as Irish as a moving statue.
You also insinuated that I prefer to call blackboards, chalkboards, because I am motivated by racial prejudice.This is a wild and unfounded accusation.

I guess Terry, you must be the Forum Bully jumping right on the new boy's back.I don't get bullied Terry, especially not by someone who claims to be an alcoholic junkie with an Rx addiction to boot.You don't think I'd roll over for someone like that do you?

Keep pitching them kid and I'll keep knocking them out onto the street:rolleyes:

Congratulations on doing so well in America. However, I would appreciate if you used Irish terminology when replying to my posts, or referencing me.

I have no idea what Rx is.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

errr..we actually call them whiteboards, I don't know of any school using chalk anymore, it's markers and whiteboards.

I'm deeply offended by that.

Misanthrope wrote: »

Because I am in the States right now.If I was in Ireland with you,I'd refer to we.But I am not in Ireland,where you are, so there can be no we,until I get back............. 'kay?Get it now?Or is this a Ireland v USA thing for you?

I can't think of what i could do to allay your paranoia that I might be a yank posing as an Irishman.If you can come up with something, run it by me.It'd be nice to end this digression,started by Terry,the eh ...Wrestling Mod who ironically has a chip on his shoulder over America or the possibility one of it's citizens might be in here posting.
Do you really want to ride on his crazy train or can we just drop it and accept that I'm Irish?

Dude, it's not a chip on my shoulder. It's a crisp. Tayto cheese and onion to be specific.

Misanthrope · 26-08-2010 01:38AM

Terry wrote: »

I have no idea what Rx is.

Every druggie worth his Xanax knows that Rx is shorthand for 'prescription'.

A 'junkie' is an abuser of heroin btw.

I call crisps 'crisps'.They're definitely not chips, no matter what the yanks say.If you send me a picture of your shoulder,I'll get a pack of Taytos and try and teach them the difference.;)

Misanthrope · 26-08-2010 01:42AM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I really don't get this. We have kids dragging heavy bags, and parents buying expensive books. The new Kindle which is only on sale this week is dirt cheap, really really cheap, and can store thousands of books. Wouldn't it be a lot better if every kid had a Kindle, and a copybook for notes and homework? Bags would be featherlite, and kids would learn a little bit about tech too, and any spinal issues from carrying large bags with constantly shifting centres of gravity would be done away with.

[EDIT] Plus the Kindle can be used for years too!

I couldn't agree more.Would need to have colour capability to maximise potential.But this is by far the most practical solution I've heard.

ascanbe · 26-08-2010 01:54AM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I really don't get this. We have kids dragging heavy bags, and parents buying expensive books. The new Kindle which is only on sale this week is dirt cheap, really really cheap, and can store thousands of books. Wouldn't it be a lot better if every kid had a Kindle, and a copybook for notes and homework? , Bags would be featherlite and kids would learn a little bit about tech too, and any spinal issues from carrying large bags with constantly shifting centres of gravity would be done away with.

[EDIT] Plus the Kindle can be used for years too!

I agree with the rest of your post, but the bit i've highlighted is just not on...

Pedro K · 26-08-2010 02:31AM

KeithM89 wrote: »

Just buy one and photocopy it for the whole class - problem solved

Given the fact that every year parents have to contribute a sum of money towards administration and photocopying fees (at least in my schools anyway, so much for free education) this isn't a bad idea at all.

Misanthrope · 26-08-2010 02:48AM

Pedro K wrote: »

Given the fact that every year parents have to contribute a sum of money towards administration and photocopying fees (at least in my schools anyway, so much for free education) this isn't a bad idea at all.

A violation of copyright though.

"TUI calls on schoolbook publishers" to cop the f**k on

Comments