"TUI calls on schoolbook publishers" to cop the f**k on

the_syco

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/tui-calls-on-schoolbook-publishers-to-review-sales-strategies-470810.html
http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/18479571/?view=Standard

Parents are facing high school book costs because publishers continue to issue new editions of textbooks even though the school syllabus has not changed, a teachers' union has said.

The Teacher's Union of Ireland is calling on publishers to review their marketing and sales strategies in light of increased unemployment and lower wages.

The TUI said teachers were forced to use the latest editions, because it was too disruptive and confusing when students in the same class were using different editions of a text book.

This has always been the problem. 2nd hand books usually did the job, with only slight grammatical differences between the new and old books usually. It's about time someone did this!

King Felix

I always used to sell my books to someone in the year below me/buy them from someone in the year above me.

Don't people do that any more?

KeithM89_old

Just buy one and photocopy it for the whole class - problem solved

sponsoredwalk

Well I think this is justification enough to take away teachers benefits...

Oh, not that kind of thread, carry on!

Misanthrope

They're still using textbooks?

There's this new thing called the internets which is like a series of tubes.I think Al Gore invented it.Anyway I'm told it is not bound by the conventional limitations of the printing press, invented by one Joe Gutenburg in 1440.

Perhaps someone should look into this.

Terry

Misanthrope wrote: »

They're still using textbooks?

There's this new thing called the internets which is like a series of tubes.I think Al Gore invented it.Anyway I'm told it is not bound by the conventional limitations of the printing press, invented by one Joe Gutenburg in 1440.

Perhaps someone should look into this.

Yeah, because all schools have unlimited amounts of PCs and laptops.

GLaDOS

Terry wrote: »

Yeah, because all schools have unlimited amounts of PCs and laptops.

Also if I had a laptop instead of a book in school I'd have gotten no work done...

Chuchoter

About time. My brother when he was going into 1st year last year had NONE of my books, though I had just finished junior cycle that year (I was going into 4th year)

Wertz

...and the great Folens conspiracy continues.

Churn out the same sh*t with slightly different wording and some revisions every 2-3 years, have someone at the dept of education add it to the syllabus and watch the euros roll in, all the while making sure that any secondhand or book re-use scheme is undermined by a decree from on high that the latest texts must be used.

Foolproof.

CrazyRabbit

Terry wrote: »

Yeah, because all schools have unlimited amounts of PCs and laptops.

You mean that they don't have all have iPads or Kindle's? Shocking! :eek:

peckerhead

Wertz wrote: »

Churn out the same sh*t with slightly different wording and some revisions every 2-3 years, have someone at the dept of education add it to the syllabus and watch the euros roll in, all the while making sure that any secondhand or book re-use scheme is undermined by a decree from on high that the latest texts must be used.

The Department provide lists of recommended texts. Schools choose which ones to use. It's well within the power of teachers and principals (INTO, ASTI and TUI members) to end this institutionalised profiteering. But then the authors of the overpriced tat that passes for school textbooks in this country (largely retired INTO, ASTI and TUI members) would lose out on royalties.

Much better to issue sanctimonious press releases at the appropriate time of year and change nothing. WTF, they want businesses to seek to make less profit?

Celly Smunt

if the syllabus hasn't changed why don't the teachers just use the old edition?.....sigh

Misanthrope

Terry wrote: »

Yeah, because all schools have unlimited amounts of PCs and laptops.

Ok then............. how much do all the books required for 6 years of secondary schooling cost?In my day it came to about 120 bucks per annum, with many being second hand.Lets round that down and say 100 pa.So for 6 years of textbooks were looking at 600 bucks.You can easily buy 2 laptops for that money if you bulk buy.

Ever heard of the laptop program for African schools.100- 150 for a linux laptop that can do all the basics.

So while Luddites here guffaw at what they think is way too 'out there', ie a computer for every desk,developing nations will be producing an army of computer literate generations.All the while we'll be arguing over the congruence of our paper curriculum while they will be accessing designated sites which are continuously updated and expanded

Bring back chalk boards and dunce caps.Is it any wonder we're falling behind?

Wertz

peckerhead wrote: »

It's well within the power of teachers and principals (INTO, ASTI and TUI members) to end this institutionalised profiteering. But then the authors of the overpriced tat that passes for school textbooks in this country (mostly retired INTO, ASTI and TUI members) would lose out on royalties.

...and so the great circle jerk continues.

Don't these people get decent pensions and such?

Celly Smunt

Misanthrope wrote: »

Ok then............. how much do all the books required for 6 years of secondary schooling cost?In my day it came to about 120 bucks per annum, with many being second hand.Lets round that down and say 100 pa.So for 6 years of textbooks were looking at 600 bucks.You can easily buy 2 laptops for that money if you bulk buy.

Ever heard of the laptop program for African schools.100- 150 for a linux laptop that can do all the basics.

So while Luddites here guffaw at what they think is way too 'out there', ie a computer for every desk,developing nations will be producing an army of computer literate generations.All the while we'll be arguing over the congruence of our paper curriculum while they will be accessing designated sites which are continuously updated and expanded

Bring back chalk boards and dunce caps.Is it any wonder we're falling behind?

600 bucks?! no way dude?!

mikemac

Wait until college.
Some books like law books can cost 100 euro or more.
That's just for one book

And the person who telling you to buy is your lecturer who wrote the damn thing!

Celly Smunt

feelingstressed wrote: »

Wait until college.
Some books like law books can cost 100 euro or more.
That's just for one book

And the person who telling you to buy is your lecturer who wrote the damn thing!

law lol.

dory

About time! It's ridiculous how often they bring out new ones.

Celly Smunt

dory wrote: »

About time! It's ridiculous how often they bring out new ones.

i heard its once a year,crazy

Herb Powell

peckerhead wrote: »

The Department provide lists of recommended texts. Schools choose which ones to use. It's well within the power of teachers and principals (INTO, ASTI and TUI members) to end this institutionalised profiteering. But then the authors of the overpriced tat that passes for school textbooks in this country (largely retired INTO, ASTI and TUI members) would lose out on royalties.

Much better to issue sanctimonious press releases at the appropriate time of year and change nothing. WTF, they want businesses to seek to make less profit?

you think the teachers are in on this? I'm sorry but that's the biggest load of bullsh1t I've ever heard

Hank_Jones

The Celtic Tiger mentality strikes again.

Robbing bastards really.
Aways bought as many second hand books as possible when I went to school.
My brothers were years ahead and I still used some of their books.

Those poor Celtic Tiger children.

plein de force

King Felix wrote: »

I always used to sell my books to someone in the year below me/buy them from someone in the year above me.

Don't people do that any more?

the books are always changing! so sometimes one year might not be using the same book as the one below

ejmaztec

plein de force wrote: »

the books are always changing! so sometimes one year might not be using the same book as the one below

It's not down here, where'd you put it?

Lukker-

Fair play to the TUI, absolutely joke. Compare some of the texts, the minor differences is laughable.

Misanthrope

pmcmahon wrote: »

600 bucks?! no way dude?!

No way what?No way you get 2 laptops for 600.Look ye here ..................................... http://laptopunder300.net/

Or do you mean no way 6 years of school books could cost 600?

How much does one text book cost? Less than 10 bucks?No way......... they vary from about 11 to 35 rag a piece.I sat 11 subjects for leaving, none of which was covered in a single book, at least 2 books per subject.That's 22 books for me at say, 10 bucks a pop for 3 years.
That by today's prices (extremely conservative estimate) is 660 for just my LC

Celly Smunt

Misanthrope wrote: »

No way what?No way you get 2 laptops for 600.Look ye here ..................................... http://laptopunder300.net/

Or do you mean no way 6 years of school books could cost 600?

How much does one text book cost? Less than 10 bucks?No way......... they vary from about 11 to 35 rag a piece.I sat 11 subjects for leaving, none of which was covered in a single book, at least 2 books per subject.That's 22 books for me at say, 10 bucks a pop for 3 years.
That by today's prices (extremely conservative estimate) is 660 for just my LC

i was just commenting on your use of the word "bucks",kids these days sigh.

Misanthrope

pmcmahon wrote: »

i was just commenting on your use of the word "bucks",kids these days sigh.

I thought as much.It's a result of a certain amount of schooling and living on the far side of the pond.Ask someone for 100 yoyos over here and the outcome would be laughable.
I'll try and use the appropriate denomination next time.By the way nobody here accepts buckskins as payment any more.I'm just way behind the times with my terminology.And I'll wager thee a thrupenny bit I'm ain't the only one

ordinary_girl

Wertz wrote: »

...and the great Folens conspiracy continues.

Churn out the same sh*t with slightly different wording and some revisions every 2-3 years, have someone at the dept of education add it to the syllabus and watch the euros roll in, all the while making sure that any secondhand or book re-use scheme is undermined by a decree from on high that the latest texts must be used.

Foolproof.

This pisses me off so much. When I was in school some of my teachers encouraged us to only get the books second-hand, they'd print out the extra bits from revised editions if they magically were needed (they never were).

Stephen

Ooh, delicious pedantry.

Terry

Misanthrope wrote: »

Ok then............. how much do all the books required for 6 years of secondary schooling cost?In my day it came to about 120 bucks per annum, with many being second hand.Lets round that down and say 100 pa.So for 6 years of textbooks were looking at 600 bucks.You can easily buy 2 laptops for that money if you bulk buy.

Ever heard of the laptop program for African schools.100- 150 for a linux laptop that can do all the basics.

So while Luddites here guffaw at what they think is way too 'out there', ie a computer for every desk,developing nations will be producing an army of computer literate generations.All the while we'll be arguing over the congruence of our paper curriculum while they will be accessing designated sites which are continuously updated and expanded

Bring back chalk boards and dunce caps.Is it any wonder we're falling behind?

You must be American.
Allow me to explain things in a term you may understand.
Shít costs more in Ireland.

My cousin just had to pay over €1,000 for books and uniforms between both of her children.

Also, we call them "Black boards" and not "Chalk boards". "Black" is not a bad word in Ireland,

Wertz

Hank_Jones wrote: »

The Celtic Tiger mentality strikes again.

Nah man, this has been going on since at least the 80's...it probably just moved up a gear during the boom and now a lot of people are seeing it for what it is 'cause they're tight for cash.

Wertz

Rest_Energy wrote: »

This pisses me off so much. When I was in school some of my teachers encouraged us to only get the books second-hand, they'd print out the extra bits from revised additions if they magically were needed (they never were).

What they did was technically copyright infringement and would be frowned on in a lot of schools....but I say fair play to them.

Another thing dreamt up by these publishers is the concept of workbooks...printed books costing many times more than a plain copy/foolscap but designed to be written in and hence used once and binned at end of year.

You know I have most of my LC books in a box someplace...I bet if I dug them out and comared to today's, the differences in the maths and sciences at least would be miniscule, at least in terms of text and content. I also fail to see how learning a european language can vary from year to year...the onl thing that should need occasional revision is history and perhaps geography.

Someone mentioned laptops...desirable, fragile and portable...how many get broken or nicked in a school setting if they were brought in? At least a book is hardwearing and if it goes for a walk, you're not talking about hundreds to replace it.

ascanbe

Are we still producing an adequate supply of wallpaper to cover all these books?

xOxSinéadxOx

It's ridiculous alright, was noticing it that my sister can't use any of my my old books they're all diferent now

up for anything

I paid €400 for first year books in 2007.
I paid €250 for second year books in 2008.
Another €150 odd for third year in 2009.
And €120 for transition year in 2010.
Dreading 2011.....

Just paid €400 for first year books - 2010.

Guess what! Only about three books that I could buy second hand and couldn't sell any of the first three years books on because they are no longer on the list. Rip off. Primary school books the same - caught sight of another schools book list for third class today - same as one of mine. That school had five books on their list - mine has about 15, for the same class!!!

Back when I went to school every primary school in the country used the same books and much the same in secondary. Don't they know there is a sodding recession.

Toto Wolfcastle

Ha new editions. You should see the state of some of the books we have to give the students under the book rental scheme. All 1st to 3rd years in my school get their books under the book rental scheme, apart from a few. Although the Irish course has changed a bit at Junior Cert level we still have to use the old books because of lack of funding. We can make do with them though I suppose and at least the parents save money. The newer versions are more user friendly though.

ordinary_girl

Wertz wrote: »

What they did was technically copyright infringement and would be frowned on in a lot of schools....but I say fair play to them.

Funnily enough they never actually needed to print anything out from the revised editions, the older editions had basically the same information as the newer ones, bar one or two more chapters that may have had more detail than in the older ones.

oceanclub

Wertz wrote: »

...and the great Folens conspiracy continues.

Googling Folens is a bit of a surprise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Folens

Albert Folens (1917-2003) was a Belgian-born publisher of educational materials in the Republic of Ireland. His company, Folens, is a major publisher of educational materials.

[...]

Hidden History: Ireland's Nazis, a two-part documentary series shown on RTÉ revealed his collaboration with the Third Reich. (The first part was broadcast on RTÉ 1 on January 7, 2007, the second on January 16). Juliette Folens, his widow, obtained a temporary High Court injunction to prevent the use of a 1987 interview with her husband on an ex parte basis. The Folens family issued a press release denying that Albert Folens was ever involved with Nazi war crimes, though he was a member of the Flemish Legion.[1] After the programme was broadcast, a letter containing a death threat was sent to Albert Folens' widow Juliette.

P.

Misanthrope

Terry wrote: »

You must be American.
Allow me to explain things in a term you may understand.
Shít costs more in Ireland.

My cousin just had to pay over €1,000 for books and uniforms between both of her children.

Also, we call them "Black boards" and not "Chalk boards". "Black" is not a bad word in Ireland,

I'm not American.
I was lowballing those figures because I wanted to understate the case,thinking that to most people the conservative estimate would be shocking enough.
It seems that most got the point,but you interpreted it as an opportunity to do some yank bashing.But you jumped the gun and sprinted all the way to epic failure once again because I am as Irish as a moving statue.
You also insinuated that I prefer to call blackboards, chalkboards, because I am motivated by racial prejudice.This is a wild and unfounded accusation.

I guess Terry, you must be the Forum Bully jumping right on the new boy's back.I don't get bullied Terry, especially not by someone who claims to be an alcoholic junkie with an Rx addiction to boot.You don't think I'd roll over for someone like that do you?

Keep pitching them kid and I'll keep knocking them out onto the street:rolleyes:

landsleaving

Misanthrope wrote: »

I'm not American.
I was lowballing those figures because I wanted to understate the case,thinking that to most people the conservative estimate would be shocking enough.
It seems that most got the point,but you interpreted it as an opportunity to do some yank bashing.But you jumped the gun and sprinted all the way to epic failure once again because I am as Irish as a moving statue.
You also insinuated that I prefer to call blackboards, chalkboards, because I am motivated by racial prejudice.This is a wild and unfounded accusation.

I guess Terry, you must be the Forum Bully jumping right on the new boy's back.I don't get bullied Terry, especially not by someone who claims to be an alcoholic junkie with an Rx addiction to boot.You don't think I'd roll over for someone like that do you?

Keep pitching them kid and I'll keep knocking them out onto the street:rolleyes:

We don't play baseball here... you just slipped up big time. :pac:

byhookorbycrook

errr..we actually call them whiteboards, I don't know of any school using chalk anymore, it's markers and whiteboards.

GTE

Misanthrope wrote: »

They're still using textbooks?

There's this new thing called the internets which is like a series of tubes.I think Al Gore invented it.Anyway I'm told it is not bound by the conventional limitations of the printing press, invented by one Joe Gutenburg in 1440.

Perhaps someone should look into this.

Oh for heavens sake cop on, thats not even good as a tongue in cheek remark. Secondary schools never had the funding to buy and develop their network of computers and software that would be needed for this. And dont suggest families should buy the computer.

"Oh no, the new *e-textbook* providers software needs a a critical update" Can you imagine a class room of 24 doing that?

1) They would never have it as just a plain old PDF so it would be their own format and program
2) The cost of this program would be a yearly maintenance cost
3) It plain and simple would never be done the way it should in this country.

Then add to that hardware failures
Lost USB keys,
The rain you have to walk through if you had a laptop.
The inherent one up manship that the kids would demand with the quality of their laptops. Standardised laptops maybe? No. It would go out to a company who would mess it up and rip everyone off.
Cost of installing a computer terminal per student to the current school buildings?
Electrical connection
Ethernet. Dont say wireless networking, all hell would break loose!
General IT costs of setting it up.
Damage and vandalism to equipment?
Computer competency from an early Secondary age would be essential and never guaranteed
Power cut?
Actually learning a whole syllabus off a computer screen? I would NEVER want to go near the current History syllabus on a laptop for example. Note taking would be night mare.

Its one thing to tell them to get their act together with regards to textbooks, saying that IT is the answer is only going to move the money making scam to a different format which for the most part is not needed.



Its a horrible problem which has the simplest answer in the world for me.

mike65

How often does the text of Coriolanus or Lord of the Flies change? Have new rivers been discovered or new laws of physics? 2+2 still equals 4 surely?

Misanthrope

landsleaving wrote: »

We don't play baseball here... you just slipped up big time. :pac:

Eh............... ya you do.That's why Ireland has a national team.There was even a docu-movie made about them a few years back.You slipped up my friend, by assuming that you know everything.

Nice try.

landsleaving

Misanthrope wrote: »

Eh............... ya you do.That's why Ireland has a national team.There was even a docu-movie made about them a few years back.You slipped up my friend, by assuming that you know everything.

Nice try.

Why do I always forget, the internets are serious business.

But why did you say 'you' do and not 'we' do if you are Irish... AHA! :P

gaeilgegrinds1

I'm a teacher. We have nothing to do with publishers in my school. Usually succeed in using old books and supplementing them, arrange fairs so students can buy books 2nd or 3rd hand. Very much alone though!

Misanthrope

bbk wrote: »

Oh for heavens sake cop on, thats not even good as a tongue in cheek remark. Secondary schools never had the funding to buy and develop their network of computers and software that would be needed for this. And dont suggest families should buy the computer.

"Oh no, the new *e-textbook* providers software needs a a critical update" Can you imagine a class room of 24 doing that?

1) They would never have it as just a plain old PDF so it would be their own format and program
2) The cost of this program would be a yearly maintenance cost
3) It plain and simple would never be done the way it should in this country.

Its one thing to tell them to get their act together with regards to textbooks, saying that IT is the answer is only going to move the money making scam to a different format which for the most part is not needed.

I would NEVER want to go near the current History syllabus on a laptop for example.

Its a horrible problem which has the simplest answer in the world for me.

And we'll have girls dancing at the crossroads as the men come in from the fields.....................

The money is not the issue here.Not when we stand by and watch crooked banks and CEOs swipe billions.The money is there.The 80 million that Sean Fitzpatrick diverted from Anglo would more than cover a pc for every desk.

Are you a technophobe, a Luddite?Are you aware that the rest of the world is moving on up while Irish children are trying to figure out which already obsolete dog eared pile of pulp they need to squander their parents money on?

So why don't the schools have the funding?Who's fault is it?Is that just the way it is and the way it'll always be.

As for families not being able to afford them.Most can afford cigarettes and alcohol and sky sports and a movie channel.It's about priorities.And your priority seems to be to adopt a never-can-win defeatist,and regressive outlook.....................................Best of luck with that.

Misanthrope

landsleaving wrote: »

Why do I always forget, the internets are serious business.

But why did you say 'you' do and not 'we' do if you are Irish... AHA! :P

Because I am in the States right now.If I was in Ireland with you,I'd refer to we.But I am not in Ireland,where you are, so there can be no we,until I get back............. 'kay?Get it now?Or is this a Ireland v USA thing for you?

I can't think of what i could do to allay your paranoia that I might be a yank posing as an Irishman.If you can come up with something, run it by me.It'd be nice to end this digression,started by Terry,the eh ...Wrestling Mod who ironically has a chip on his shoulder over America or the possibility one of it's citizens might be in here posting.
Do you really want to ride on his crazy train or can we just drop it and accept that I'm Irish?

landsleaving

Calm down man, it was pretty obviously a joke.

Although riding a crazy train sounds fun, lets do that.

GTE

My responses are in the red font and below the quote.

Misanthrope wrote: »

And we'll have girls dancing at the crossroads as the men come in from the fields.....................
Try to keep it on topic, you are only weakening my view of your argument with that tripe

The money is not the issue here.Not when we stand by and watch crooked banks and CEOs swipe billions.The money is there.The 80 million that Sean Fitzpatrick diverted from Anglo would more than cover a pc for every desk.
There is money rolling about like grass clippings in the Spring but we are talking about the here and now in this thread, and in the here and now the schools dont have the funding and they just didnt before hand
Are you a technophobe, a Luddite?Are you aware that the rest of the world is moving on up while Irish children are trying to figure out which already obsolete dog eared pile of pulp they need to squander their parents money on?
I do not suffer from technophobia by any means. If you would care to explain what your point meant as to back it up. That would be better then trying to be funny or witty about it in your language. The format in which its delivered isnt a problem. Arguments about the way its taught and the course content can be raised but whether it comes in a book or in a digital format is not of any real significance

So why don't the schools have the funding?Who's fault is it?Is that just the way it is and the way it'll always be.
Many reasons, not worth getting into here as it would derail a thread. With any luck it wont always be like that however money would be much better spend used to upgrade the PE department, Tech graph, Technology, Metalwork, Woodwork, General facilities and of course a top of the range computing department so our kids can get the education they need for the future with regards to IT

As for families not being able to afford them.Most can afford cigarettes and alcohol and sky sports and a movie channel.It's about priorities.And your priority seems to be to adopt a never-can-win defeatist,and regressive outlook.....................................Best of luck with that.

My outlook is realistic. Money would be used on the wrong thing if your idea of how subjects should be taught is realised.

There is no reason why the English and History department should suddenly become more technological. Teaching practices and course content would be what is needed to encourage those subjects.

Instead of giving everystudent a computer terminal investing the money in subjects like maths, physics, tech graph and others I mentioned and more would benefit from investments in technology but that is because having a teacher with a well written program like Crocodile clips to help explain and design electrical circuits is much better then reading the theory in books.

Misanthrope

landsleaving wrote: »

Calm down man, it was pretty obviously a joke.

Although riding a crazy train sounds fun, lets do that.

Sorry for overreacting.I'm a noob and I'm not familiar yet with most of the posters in here and since I've got nothing but (very poor) flak of one individual in particular, i might be a lil bit defensive.