We Are So Irrelevant to the Grand Scheme of Life...

Sticky_Fingers · 23-08-2010 07:53AM

Hurray for the pale blue dot we call our home, its the only one we'll ever have so lets try and keep it tidy

Sea Sharp · 23-08-2010 07:55AM

In my opinion the grand scheme of things is the one that's irrelevant.

Wibbs · 23-08-2010 09:06AM

In these debates, you either get the hippies "we're sooooooooo important" or the nihilists wearing black "We're nothing. Nothing I tell you!!".

I'd go for somewhere in the middle myself. For all the conjecture about intelligent alien life we're the only ones we know of. Life itself may all over the place or it might be very very rare. So far it seems as far as evidence goes, intelligent alien life is rare, well non existent, at least in our cosmic backyard and at this time.

xflyer wrote:

But I think space travel further than a pointless effort to hit Mars will end there. We are stuck here for as long as the Earth lasts.

That's a damn pity if it turns out to be true. Going on the basis that so far at least we're alone, we need to get out there. We need to have at least one other colony of humanity(mars being the obvious place). At the moment we're an "island" species and they're very vulnerable. Just one self sustaining colony increases our chances of survival and progress exponentially. Neill Armstrong was European in origin, but Europeans didnt go to the moon, their colonists did. The first humans to see another star up close could be martians, not earthlings.

So yep I think we're important as a species. Very. You hear people say "oh intelligence was an evolutionary fluke" and they're right. Out of the billions of years of life here, fins and wings and feet evolved many times in very different species, our kinda smarts only the once. Someone once said that intelligence was just another bauble on the xmas tree of evolution. I say bollocks, it's the dirty great effin star at the top. Without it the universe wouldnt have had self knowledge. Everyone just reading this thread is doing something very very special. Something no other animal ever has. If we go extinct, the chances are very high considering our fluke no other animal will. That's pretty damned relevant as far as Im concerned.

Samba · 23-08-2010 09:23AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U

I think irrelevant is a bad word to use in our case.

The earth is precisely the right distance from the sun in order to support life, be it chance or divine intervention you can hardly refer to that fact as irrelevant, there's an estimated 100 thousand million stars just in the Milky Way alone but only a fraction of these are positioned around certain planets that potentially could support life.

The circumstances under which life has managed to evolve on earth are actually quite extraordinary.

We're actually probably the envy of every carbon molecule and atom that wasn't as lucky as us!

Brendog · 23-08-2010 09:26AM

Reading this really beats the monday mornign slump....lol jk....I want to kill myself

fakearms123 · 23-08-2010 09:51AM

We are relevant in the grand scheme, Jesus and his travelling White-headed Capuchin monkey companion visit me before I go to bed every night, they arrive outside in the laneway beside my house and beckon me from the window to come out, Jesus told me that we are all God's children and that in order to understand God's word I must drink from the chalice of knowledge, its not so much a drinking motion, more a sucking, dribbling and swallowing motion, after I have performed the "act of courage" as Jesus likes to call it then I move onto his monkey, Jesus told me that I must become one with the animals and gain trust with the animals, although I dont think this is true because when I drink and suck the knowledge from the monkey he always bites and scratches me up until the knowledge is released then he relaxes. Although I feel no changes from this ceremony, Jesus has assured me that I have gained an understanding of our existence but all I see are these burning red sores around my lips

Sykk · 23-08-2010 10:00AM

Adequate wrote: »

Do you ever get the feeling that we really are extremely insignificant in the whole context of things?

Think about all the other galaxies that exist in our universe and there's millions of them, vaster and more expansive then our one!
There's also millions more universes then ours. Then there's also the millions of universes that we don't know about BUT we flipping know about.

So it got me thinking, that far from being at the centre of things, far from being important, far from being even relevant, nobody knows we're here.

So let's wreck tha joint!

There is only one Universe. I think you meant to say "There's millions of Solar Systems in each Galaxy and millions of galaxies in the Universe". And I'd still have to correct you!.. There's Billions to Trillions. Have peek at the astronomy and space forum.

Samba · 23-08-2010 10:14AM

fakearms123 wrote: »

We are relevant in the grand scheme, Jesus and his travelling White-headed Capuchin monkey companion visit me before I go to bed every night, they arrive outside in the laneway beside my house and beckon me from the window to come out, Jesus told me that we are all God's children and that in order to understand God's word I must drink from the chalice of knowledge, its not so much a drinking motion, more a sucking, dribbling and swallowing motion, after I have performed the "act of courage" as Jesus likes to call it then I move onto his monkey, Jesus told me that I must become one with the animals and gain trust with the animals, although I dont think this is true because when I drink and suck the knowledge from the monkey he always bites and scratches me up until the knowledge is released then he relaxes. Although I feel no changes from this ceremony, Jesus has assured me that I have gained an understanding of our existence but all I see are these burning red sores around my lips

In future, you may want to safeguard your boards log in details from these two.

23-08-2010 10:15AM

Sykk wrote: »

There is only one Universe. I think you meant to say "There's millions of Solar Systems in each Galaxy and millions of galaxies in the Universe". And I'd still have to correct you!.. There's Billions to Trillions. Have peek at the astronomy and space forum.

Actually, they were talking about the multiverse/parallel universe theory. Or rather, they were quoting directly from Tommy Tiernan's first DVD, and that's what he was talking about

dlofnep · 23-08-2010 10:21AM

OP has obviously started smoking hash by the looks on his last 2 threads.

smokedeels · 23-08-2010 10:24AM

*opens his heart to the benign indifference of the universe*

xflyer · 23-08-2010 11:31AM

Fuzzy wrote: »

Here is a token reply.
Your posts are ignored, yes.
But they ARE read by people.
The people just don't care enough about your opinion to reply to you.
This could be for a number of reasons, including but not limited to: Mentioning god as if he/it/she is a proven entity, lack of lolcats, condescending manner despite having weak posts, waffle, no lulz or possibility of replying with lulz.
AH maybe isn't for you. Cool story though.:pac:

You've kind of proved my point. The God thing being a good example. I said

Your duty is to enjoy your life, you have no destiny and you won't go to heaven to be welcomed by God or anyone else.

Meaning there is no God, no destiny no heaven. If you misunderstood that it means you misread my post, thus proving my contribution was pointless in the grand scheme of things.
BTW I love your condescending reply to my condescending manner;) AH I think is for me.

Deus Ex Machina · 23-08-2010 01:58PM

The strange thing about questioning humanity's significance in the universe is that it is a question which originates in a human mind, a thing which has a strong proclivity towards finding meaning, purpose or significance in all things. This is because basic survival, the Darwinian origin of our minds, is routed in finding the meaning and purpose of the various elements of our environment. To take an arbitrary example, early homo sapiens survived because they saw that food which was heated by fire was less likely to cause death by poisoning than that which wasn't, therefore fire has a purpose. Ontological questions aren't part of this consideration, our minds evolved to find meaning and purpose in a very limited environment, but at the level of the universe we still tend to apply these same lines of reasoning, which leads us to questions such as "what is the meaning of life" or conclusions such as "we do/don't matter" in the grand scheme of things.

Why should there be anything like a purpose or meaning? Why should the universe do anything other than simply exist? We expect things to have meaning because that is the tendency of our minds, but there is no reason to believe that our expectations, formed on (relatively speaking) a micro level, apply on the macro level of the universe?

What can be said is that human existence is all any human has experienced by definition, so to us, to ourselves, it has enormous significance.

Wibbs · 23-08-2010 03:27PM

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

The strange thing about questioning humanity's significance in the universe is that it is a question which originates in a human mind, a thing which has a strong proclivity towards finding meaning, purpose or significance in all things. This is because basic survival, the Darwinian origin of our minds, is routed in finding the meaning and purpose of the various elements of our environment.

Oh I agree. Too often the big questions are rooted in a very human mindset. One could also argue though that that human mind is a product of the universe and what we define as purpose may spring from a greater purpose of the universe itself. The nature of that purpose may be forever out of reach, but just because it originates in the human mind, doesnt automatically negate the notion that there might be one, however unfathomable.

To take an arbitrary example, early homo sapiens survived because they saw that food which was heated by fire was less likely to cause death by poisoning than that which wasn't, therefore fire has a purpose.

Well homo erectus and fire and cooking was more about releasing more nutrients than removing poisons. Though that doesnt takeaway its purpose. Though the question also arises did erectus have enough of a mind to discern purpose? Chances are bruning food was a complete fluke and remained so for a long time. That attachment of purpose may well have come much later. Which also begs the question why? It's not required of us as a species. Even as an intelligent one. Plenty of people today consider the notion of a universal purpose as being incorrect and are perfectly fine. Some in the past did too. It must have had some other evolutionary pressure on it.

Ontological questions aren't part of this consideration, our minds evolved to find meaning and purpose in a very limited environment, but at the level of the universe we still tend to apply these same lines of reasoning, which leads us to questions such as "what is the meaning of life" or conclusions such as "we do/don't matter" in the grand scheme of things.

I get you, but I'm not sure I would entirely agree. Those questions have been around for a very long time. They spring instantly from the start of recorded history. Our explanations have become more complex, but the question still holds whether you're stuck on an island or standing on the moon going WTF?

Why should there be anything like a purpose or meaning? Why should the universe do anything other than simply exist? We expect things to have meaning because that is the tendency of our minds, but there is no reason to believe that our expectations, formed on (relatively speaking) a micro level, apply on the macro level of the universe?

Oh I agree. Our brief lives alone impact on these questions. A machine intelligence that would be essentially immortal, may have a very different angle on the philosophy of purpose. Like I said though, just because we expect meaning it doesnt mean that meaning doesnt exist in this universe, nor does it suggest there is. It's not a proof either way and can be argued either way.

What can be said is that human existence is all any human has experienced by definition, so to us, to ourselves, it has enormous significance.

Agreed.

Deus Ex Machina · 23-08-2010 11:05PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree. Too often the big questions are rooted in a very human mindset. One could also argue though that that human mind is a product of the universe and what we define as purpose may spring from a greater purpose of the universe itself. The nature of that purpose may be forever out of reach, but just because it originates in the human mind, doesnt automatically negate the notion that there might be one, however unfathomable. Well homo erectus and fire and cooking was more about releasing more nutrients than removing poisons. Though that doesnt takeaway its purpose. Though the question also arises did erectus have enough of a mind to discern purpose? Chances are bruning food was a complete fluke and remained so for a long time. That attachment of purpose may well have come much later. Which also begs the question why? It's not required of us as a species. Even as an intelligent one. Plenty of people today consider the notion of a universal purpose as being incorrect and are perfectly fine. Some in the past did too. It must have had some other evolutionary pressure on it.I get you, but I'm not sure I would entirely agree. Those questions have been around for a very long time. They spring instantly from the start of recorded history. Our explanations have become more complex, but the question still holds whether you're stuck on an island or standing on the moon going WTF?

Oh I agree. Our brief lives alone impact on these questions. A machine intelligence that would be essentially immortal, may have a very different angle on the philosophy of purpose. Like I said though, just because we expect meaning it doesnt mean that meaning doesnt exist in this universe, nor does it suggest there is. It's not a proof either way and can be argued either way.
Agreed.

I agree with the idea that it is possible to move beyond our tendency towards a teleological understanding of the universe, I do however believe that such a progression comes as a result of a combination of intellect and learning. I think that our default setting is to believe that meaning and purpose, or the absence thereof, are inherent within a system, rather than judgements which we make and we alone value.

I may have neglected to mention that I am in fact agnostic towards the possibility of meaning/purpose in the universe. I don't believe that our expectations negate or prove anything, and I don't think we will ever know if there is indeed a higher purpose or meaning than that which we create for ourselves in our endeavours.

bleg · 23-08-2010 11:34PM

"I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides."
—Carl Sagan "In the Valley of the Shadow," Parade, March 10, 1996

foxyboxer · 23-08-2010 11:38PM

Hmmm are we all programmed at the sub-atomic level and living in a sophisticated computer simulation which including our known universe was designed and programmed by a cosmic being which based on how we perform against a pre-conceived set of rules (say 10 commandments) determines if we progress to the next level (heaven) and so forth. Basically, try to imagine the most sophisticated release of The Sims. Newton, Einstein et al merely discovered the parameters or functions of their and our future descendents.

Or does the wall and furniture behind me only exist when i focus my eyes on them? that my desk at work will not be rendered until i get there?

Or that if the universe is infinite, that an infinite version of each of us will eventually manifest itself at some point in time?

Life would be boring if we knew all the answers.

damn you morgan freeman and discovery channel!

Gone West · 24-08-2010 07:38AM

xflyer wrote: »

You've kind of proved my point. The God thing being a good example. I saidMeaning there is no God, no destiny no heaven. If you misunderstood that it means you misread my post, thus proving my contribution was pointless in the grand scheme of things.
BTW I love your condescending reply to my condescending manner;) AH I think is for me.

Misunderstood? Possibly.
Misread? Perhaps, because of your clumsy grammar and poor sentence structure.

Craebear · 24-08-2010 09:25AM

I really hope in my life we can discover more about our galaxy and maybe contact life with comparable intelligence to us. I hope even more than when that happens we will be put in our place. Kind of like what happened in Star Trek when Humanity came into contact with Vulcans :cool:

rhythm90 · 24-08-2010 02:07PM

Adequate wrote: »

Do you ever get the feeling that we really are extremely insignificant in the whole context of things?

Think about all the other galaxies that exist in our universe and there's millions of them, vaster and more expansive then our one!
There's also millions more universes then ours. Then there's also the millions of universes that we don't know about BUT we flipping know about.

So it got me thinking, that far from being at the centre of things, far from being important, far from being even relevant, nobody knows we're here.

So let's wreck tha joint!

Put the bong down OP... It's only lunchtime.

We Are So Irrelevant to the Grand Scheme of Life...

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