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The Spirit of Collins?

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Comments

  • #32
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    It is my considered opinion that in the fullness of time history will record the greatness of Michael Collins and it will be recorded at my expense.

    Eamn De Valera quote

    Comment in 1966, quoted in Michael Collins : A Biography (1990) by Tim Pat Coogan, p. 432

    about the only true words Dev ever uttered


  • #33
    Notorious97
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    Collins didn’t lose anybody anything let alone lose us the 6 counties. Britian were never going to give them as part of an irish state. Thats a fact, the unionists had close links with the conservatives and this simply was not going to be a reality. What Collins did believe was that we instead had to convince unionists within the 6 counties to the potential for more power within a united free Ireland that they currently had. Unfortunately he never got the chance to put any of his plans in motion. When other irish leaders concentrated on a single act of freeing Ireland, Collins always thought about what came after that.

    Dev fu*ked Collins over in my opinion, and im not sure how Boards feels about Dev but i for one do not rate him at all. The civil war was a terrible time when whole families were split over the treaty, but i strongly doubt they could have lasted another round, i think if we had rejected the free state on offer Britain would have had a blank cheque to run riot in this country and squash any movement against british rule, and the rest of the world (not that they ever done much for us at the time) could not have questioned Britain on it as they had offered us some freedom....’not the ultimate freedom that all nations desire, but the freedom to achieve it’ to quote the man himself.


  • #34
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    What would Stephen Gately do?


  • #35
    StephenHendry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,146 ✭✭✭StephenHendry


    i read the yesterday that young FG were boycotting it because lenihan was giving the speech. couldn't believe , the nerve of those fcuking cnuts ,


  • #36
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,967 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Kasabian wrote: »
    Not according to my Grandad.

    This is probably a difference in generations.
    I knew my grandparents pretty much worshipped Dev but realy so did a good proportion of that generation, maybe even yours.

    In our local town, there is even an estate called De Valera Court as there was an old hotel there where he stayed when visiting the town.
    Is it true there isn't a street in Ireland named after De Valera?

    Anyway, a few decades ago Collins wasn't nearly as popular as he is today.
    These things goes in cycles, maybe in another 30 years we will all be praising De Valera again.

    StephenHendry wrote: »
    i read the yesterday that young FG were boycotting it because lenihan was giving the speech. couldn't believe , the nerve of those fcuking cnuts ,

    Tbh, if Enda Kenny gave the speech for Bodenstown at the FF annual event, I'd be reading pretty much the same story. No real difference in the parties


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  • #37
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well I won't ask who your granddad is, to preserve your I.D. but with respect, others from the same generation have had a different outlook and analyses to your granddad based on their closeness to Dev, Collins and events of the day.

    It's a huge topic alone that's still being discussed today in historical quarters.

    biggins pretty much has the accepted (by historians) view on this. I've read both Collins' and De Valeras biogs and there really is no other way to view the events as they were.

    It was - as was very typical of Dev - a political master stroke.


  • #38
    podgemonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭podgemonster


    It should never be forgotten what Michael Collins did for our country or indeed any man who put his life on the line to give us freedom from the biggest empire at the time.

    There are no perfect men in the world, only perfect intentions.

    Collins also kicked ass in Taken :P


  • #39
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    ...pretty much has the accepted (by historians) view on this...

    It was - as was very typical of Dev - a political master stroke.

    All very true. Collins was/is seen as the patsy for Dev.


  • #40
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Actually I feel that this has gone a long way to heal the last lingering civil war divisions and bad feeling. So fair play Lenihan. Thumbs up!


  • #41
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Actually I feel that this has gone a long way to heal the last lingering civil war divisions and bad feeling. So fair play Lenihan. Thumbs up!

    The last what now?

    The vast majority of people today don't care about any of that nonsense.


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  • #42
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    The last what now?

    The vast majority of people today don't care about any of that nonsense.
    Some people do. So I say fair play.


  • #43
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    If Collins were around I'd like to see him get the Squad after the Gombeens. I wouldn't mind paying the Squad's expenses after all bullets are cheap.


  • #44
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    If Collins were around I'd like to see him get the Squad after the Gombeens. I wouldn't mind paying the Squad's expenses after all bullets are cheap.
    So is talk, go get a gun and do it yourself! :D


  • #45
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    So is talk, go get a gun and do it yourself! :D

    sure you cant just ask your friends? :):)


  • #46
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    sure you cant just ask your friends? :):)
    I have none :(


  • #47
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    If Collins were around I'd like to see him get the Squad after the Gombeens.

    But he's not. Because he's been dead for nearly a century..... along with his ideals.


  • #48
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    But he's not. Because he's been dead for nearly a century..... along with his ideals.


    "what if there were no hypothetical questions?" - George Carlin.


  • #49
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    PeterIanStaker wrote: »
    "what if there were no hypothetical questions?" - George Carlin.

    Does someone have to die before you value their opinion?


  • #50
    Notorious97
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Does someone have to die before you value their opinion?


    Apostles of Freedom are ever idolised when dead, but crucified when alive - James Connolly


  • #51
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    And people wonder why this country is a backwater ****hole?

    Fools clinging to century old 'heroes' and their outdated ideology.


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  • #52
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    And people wonder why this country is a backwater ****hole?

    Fools clinging to century old 'heroes' and their outdated ideology.
    Quit yo jibba jabba- Mr T


  • #53
    Notorious97
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    And people wonder why this country is a backwater ****hole?

    Fools clinging to century old 'heroes' and their outdated ideology.


    Why are we fools? I was just quoting somebody, oh i forgot anything you say is always correct, sorry for my post and any future posts.


  • #54
    burke08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭burke08


    Kasabian wrote: »
    He lost us 6 counties.


    the north was set up in 1920 as a seperate state with its own parliment not after the treaty talks. Collins and the delegation had no hope of regaining the north as it was already created . It would have been nearly impossiable for the the british government to remove the belfast parliment with out its consent and with out the support of the consertivates whom had a majority in westminster at that stage


  • #55
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    burke08 wrote: »
    the north was set up in 1920 as a seperate state with its own parliment not after the treaty talks. Collins and the delegation had no hope of regaining the north as it was already created . It would have been nearly impossiable for the the british government to remove the belfast parliment with out its consent and with out the support of the consertivates whom had a majority in westminster at that stage

    And who do you think you are with your historical accuracies, eh? Eh?


  • #56
    kpbdublin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 156 ✭✭kpbdublin


    Collins is the father of modern terrorism - sentimentalised and mythologised by nationalist Ireland because he got in the way of a bullet. Ireland would have got its independence in a much less divisive fashion without him and the War of Independence IRA.


  • #57
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    burke08 wrote: »
    the north was set up in 1920 as a seperate state with its own parliment not after the treaty talks. Collins and the delegation had no hope of regaining the north as it was already created . It would have been nearly impossiable for the the british government to remove the belfast parliment with out its consent and with out the support of the consertivates whom had a majority in westminster at that stage
    Which is why I said earlier that they were lost already - and Dev knew that but didn't want to be the fall guy to be taking the blame for their loss.
    Hell no, the top man never takes the fall - so he passes that duty downwards and creates a patsy.
    Collins was picked as he was also seen as someone that could replace Dev and Dev didn't also like the idea that there was a possible powerful person snapping at his heels.
    So he did what he did and took care of two problems in the one go.
    He sent Collins to his fate across an English table. The rest is history.


  • #58
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    kpbdublin wrote: »
    Collins is the father of modern terrorism - sentimentalised and mythologised by nationalist Ireland because he got in the way of a bullet. Ireland would have got its independence in a much less divisive fashion without him and the War of Independence IRA.

    basis? facts and sources to back your theory?,as far as i can see your post doesn't agree with my gullet


  • #59
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    Biggins wrote: »
    Which is why I said earlier that they were lost already - and Dev knew that but didn't want to be the fall guy to be taking the blame for their loss.
    Hell no, the top man never takes the fall - so he passes that duty downwards and creates a patsy.
    Collins was picked as he was also seen as someone that could replace Dev and Dev didn't also like the idea that there was a possible powerful person snapping at his heels.
    So he did what he did and took care of two problems in the one go.
    He sent Collins to his fate across an English table. The rest is history.

    Dev was a snake of a man


  • #60
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    kpbdublin wrote: »
    Collins is the father of modern terrorism - sentimentalised and mythologised by nationalist Ireland because he got in the way of a bullet. Ireland would have got its independence in a much less divisive fashion without him and the War of Independence IRA.
    That's an opinion and your free to think it but till I see your background data to verify that hypothesis, I'll stick with an alternative version that has more historic information to back it up.


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