Google's 200 new jobs ...

ex6 · 21-08-2010 12:21AM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Sorry to cut across the thread, but is it grammatically possible to be half fluent?

Kinda like half expecting something.

Its just a "figure of speach" I would think... Perhaps s/he understands language fully, but writes with mistakes? Or perhaps s/he is fluent with the languake s/he knows at "street level", but would be in trouble with more technical / scientific / financial / medical / ... terms?

ei.sdraob · 21-08-2010 02:13PM

Mervin J Minky wrote: »

That is not really fair. I am Lithuanian and I speak four languages fluently; Lithuanian (obviously), Latvian (because it is very closely related to my native language), Russian & English (because they were spoken & encouraged in school). I have leant these languages from an early age and I seriously doubt I could pick up another language at 29 years of age and especially become fluent so I could become employable, especially to interact with native speakers, as it would take years to gain that level of fluency.

Hey I actually agree with you,

its very hard to pick up a language in school (especially with the crop of teachers we have) hence why i think spending dozen+ years learning Irish in school without it being widely spoken in society is waste of time

Best way is to be dropped in a country and get immersed in the culture, tv etc
Which is how I learned, i tried to learn German and French in school but no luck there

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Sorry to cut across the thread, but is it grammatically possible to be half fluent?

Kinda like half expecting something.

Well one of the languages i can speak perfectly and do regularly with family, but have hard time with the grammar when putting pen to paper despite doing that quite well at one time, simply a lack of practice and laziness
Its actually very easy to forget a language over time with no practice, I seen it happen with my parents

liammur · 21-08-2010 02:28PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Hey I actually agree with you,

its very hard to pick up a language in school (especially with the crop of teachers we have) hence why i think spending dozen+ years learning Irish in school without it being widely spoken in society is waste of time

Unfair to blame our teachers, certainly some of them are poor, but i wouldn't generalise.

ahal · 21-08-2010 02:50PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Best way is to be dropped in a country and get immersed in the culture, tv etc
Which is how I learned, i tried to learn German and French in school but no luck there

Quite true, and I'd have to wonder why all the 'twinning' of towns here never resulted in much more than junkets for politicians. For example Bray is twinned with Wurzburg, but bar sending a class of primary kids over now and then I don't see much in the way of languages exchange happening.

Imho learning a language from a book is totally unnatural. It's grand to a point, but only to a point: gets you the basics. The fact that I can write German much better than speak it is probably not a coincidence. I do remember back in the day that the Goethe Institute had courses in Germany, but they were in the thousands.

astrofool · 21-08-2010 03:04PM

Knowing Google and it's employees well, a lot of these jobs will likely go to Irish people. It's the fact that they can bring non-Irish into the country that these jobs exist at all (otherwise they'd be created somewhere else).

The original statement is indeed stupendously stupid.

It's getting harder and harder to find truly skilled people in Ireland (unless you want a house built).

Nijmegen · 21-08-2010 03:32PM

Yeash. "Jobs for the Irish or no jobs at all!" is a silly position.

1. We've done rather well out of the EU, mobility, etc, ourselves

2. Some of these jobs in this global company require skills - like languages - that not all Irish people have

3. For every job created in google there are jobs created elsewhere (remember when Dell pulled out and we got worried about the people cleaning the office, working in the grocery store, driving the truck to bring the goods to the grocery store... Etc). In short, any economic activity, tax and so forth is good for the country

I'm sorry OP, but the insular type of economics you seem to be thinking of died with Dev.

WalterMitty · 21-08-2010 05:52PM

liammur wrote: »

Unfair to blame our teachers, certainly some of them are poor, but i wouldn't generalise.

i know very few people who can speak Irish fluently or had good experiences with in school despite it being taught to everyone for their entire school life! That says a lot about the teachers in Ireland and the structure they are part of that stops Irish becoming more known.

ahal · 21-08-2010 05:54PM

astrofool wrote: »

The original statement is indeed stupendously stupid.

It's getting harder and harder to find truly skilled people in Ireland (unless you want a house built).

You're entitled to your opinion. Your arguement seems to run on anecdotal 'evidence' and Government soundbites.

Nijmegen wrote: »

Yeash. "Jobs for the Irish or no jobs at all!" is a silly position.

1. We've done rather well out of the EU, mobility, etc, ourselves

2. Some of these jobs in this global company require skills - like languages - that not all Irish people have

3. For every job created in google there are jobs created elsewhere (remember when Dell pulled out and we got worried about the people cleaning the office, working in the grocery store, driving the truck to bring the goods to the grocery store... Etc). In short, any economic activity, tax and so forth is good for the country

I'm sorry OP, but the insular type of economics you seem to be thinking of died with Dev.

Yet another person who hasn't read the OP. I was referring to sourcing within the existing overflow of labour in the market.

1/ The EU has done better out of us actually. What you call 'Mobility' isn't a "happy clappy" thing. Our SKILLED people go abroad while we bring skilled people from abroad, meanwhile accepting nearly 500,000 unemployed. Now that's silly!

2/ Utter rubbish. Are you telling me that out of 500,000 there's need for endless 'relocation' adverts for Dutch technical support? Not one Dutch person among that number? The I.T. sector is displacement by definition. Have you walked around inside any of these places lately? I have.

There's nothing insular about my arguement. Every other country in the World has a plan. It usually goes "look after the existing numbers (and I include foreign labour in that equation) first". We clearly don't. Sadly many can not see past the end of their nose while they're getting by - God knows, that is an Irish trait!

I'll come back to this thread in a few years, obviously the Dell syndrome is at work here - no long term view. Most of what I see is "I'm alright jack" and "don't rock the boat", no intelligent debate beyond throwaway remarks and truly rubbish anecdotal 'evidence' based around the year 2000. Ireland is currently a hub through which the World passes through, and until the "I'm alright Jack" folk are out on their ears it's lost on you.

No wonder the Government have such an easy ride.

danbohan · 21-08-2010 07:07PM

liammur wrote: »

Unfair to blame our teachers, certainly some of them are poor, but i wouldn't generalise.

well somebody is very much to blame , teachers , dept , govt, its nuts that in 2010 our kids are leaving school without been fluent in at least one european language and they should also have a language like chinese {mandarin , ?} as well .

RichardAnd · 21-08-2010 09:52PM

danbohan wrote: »

well somebody is very much to blame , teachers , dept , govt, its nuts that in 2010 our kids are leaving school without been fluent in at least one european language and they should also have a language like chinese {mandarin , ?} as well .

To be fair, the reason people in this country are so bad at languages is because there is no incentive to learn. We all got taught Irish for 12 years yet only a fraction of us learned to speak it. Is this the fault of the teachers? No, it's the fault of the students because they were given ample opportunity to learn another language yet they choose not to take it.

21-08-2010 10:14PM

"John Herlihy, Google's vice president of global ad operations, said the office had acted as a magnet for talented employees from across Europe."

What exactly is the problem OP? Having the Google office here attracted talent. There's nothing there about Google actively recruiting outside Ireland. Google advertise a position, and anyone who's eligible to apply, can. They pick the best person for the job. What are you saying they should have done?

gurramok · 21-08-2010 11:52PM

astrofool wrote: »

Knowing Google and it's employees well, a lot of these jobs will likely go to Irish people. It's the fact that they can bring non-Irish into the country that these jobs exist at all (otherwise they'd be created somewhere else).

The original statement is indeed stupendously stupid.

It's getting harder and harder to find truly skilled people in Ireland (unless you want a house built).

This is an incredibly stupid post. I live near Google HQ on Barrow st, Dublin and the vast majority of its 1500 employees are non-Irish. Its stated this as fact if you bother Google the facts on their workforce here.

http://www.irishjobs.ie/ForumWW/WWIndividualArticle.aspx?ForumTypeID=2476

Google now has one of the most multilingual workforces of any employer in Ireland, with staff from 37 countries. Up to 70pc of its workers in Dublin are from overseas. The multilingual nature of the search engine means that many of the 500 new jobs are expected to be taken up by foreigners.

These jobs do nothing for denting that Irish unemployment rate except bringing in some income taxes. Its still not reducing the Live Register total. And yes, it takes years to learn a foreign language especially technically as Google requires so forget about training the 450,000 people out there seeking a job, it ain't gonna happen.

ardmacha · 22-08-2010 12:31AM

These jobs do nothing for denting that Irish unemployment rate except bringing in some income taxes.

Income taxes are very welcome of course, but as noted earlier in the thread these employees will also spend most of their wages in Ireland on rents and other services. The people serving them in shops, painting their apartments etc may well come from the Live Register.

This type of multinational support is always going to have many nationalities, whereever it is located.

gurramok · 22-08-2010 12:35AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Income taxes are very welcome of course, but as noted earlier in the thread these employees will also spend most of their wages in Ireland on rents and other services. The people serving them in shops, painting their apartments etc may well come from the Live Register.

This type of multinational support is always going to have many nationalities, whereever it is located.

It is indeed like the Spar next to Google on Barrow st. It won't dent the Live Register total that much you know.

gurramok · 22-08-2010 12:42AM

On the rent subject from Google employees, I can give a local input. The vast majority(if not all) rent in that area and are helping rents(along with RS applicants) stabilise as far as up to Ringsend village itself as the vast majority of foreigners rent instead of buying.

On topic, its fine and dandy getting jobs here but it ain't gonna help your techie Slovakian job vacancy to be filled by an Irish person. Get real, these type of jobs will not dent the Irish Live Register one iota.

ardmacha · 22-08-2010 01:03AM

Get real, these type of jobs will not dent the Irish Live Register one iota.

Of course these jobs do not have the strongest connection to the Irish economy. But just as tourists support Irish jobs, each foreigner based here will support a service job. The people doing these service jobs might never get a tech job in Google. The government will end up with half of the Google payroll through direct and indirect taxes which means they do not have to cut something. And 10-15% will go to Irish people.

gurramok · 22-08-2010 01:09AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Of course these jobs do not have the strongest connection to the Irish economy. But just as tourists support Irish jobs, each foreigner based here will support a service job. The people doing these service jobs might never get a tech job in Google. The government will end up with half of the Google payroll through direct and indirect taxes which means they do not have to cut something. And 10-15% will go to Irish people.

Thats a cool idea. Foreigners subsidising Irish people who can't(not thru laziness) learn foreign languages technically!

Lets see, do we want the Irish employees off the Live Register end up in Spar type jobs in order to have a quality of life?!

ardmacha · 22-08-2010 01:56AM

The idea that Irish people are going to learn all of these languages is fanciful. . There will be 20 languages in this centre, it is much easier to find someone from Hungary with some knowledge of spatial technologies than to have someone here (other than the increasing number of people from these places) study both these technologies and Hungarian. No matter where in Europe you located this you wouldn't have coverage for more than 3 or 4 of these languages from locals.

But there is a serious point here, well trained Irish people may well find jobs in technical areas, for instance IBM are hiring 200 for work on their Smart Cities project entirely in English, but some of these require people with PhDs in particular areas. The problem is not these people finding jobs, but in finding jobs for people without these skills. The guy that used to drive a lorry delivering timber to building sites can get a job delivering goods to Spar, he is not going to end up as a Geospatial analysis and visualisation Research Scientist in IBM and there is little point in regretting that he does not get that job. The challenge is to integrate the IBMs and Googles with Irish universities so that the non language related jobs can go to Irish graduates.

gandalf · 22-08-2010 09:41AM

To be honest I am not sure what people want here. The "errr they are taking our jobs arguement" doesn't apply to a lot of these types of jobs as they in some cases involve languages that Irish people will never get the chance to learn via our educational establishments.

Also bear in mind that hiring decisions could be moulded by the attitudes of the target markets towards people that they deal with over the phone. I worked (years ago) in a call centre environment and they had to change the majority of the German Team to native speakers because the Germans did not like buying from foreign sounding people.

At the end of the day 200 jobs is 200 jobs and we as an economy benefit from the taxes from these jobs and from the employees expenditure. We also gain from having these people become part of our society and the majority make it a more open, diverse and vibrant society.

As for learning a new language when you are older, yes it is hard. I am trying to learn French at the moment and am finding it a complete and utter bitch. But I have to, not because I am going for a job. I married one of those that came to our shores for a job. She's French and we have a 10 week old son who will be brought up bi-lingual. I have to learn French because otherwise he will be answering me in a language I won't understand.

murphaph · 22-08-2010 10:32AM

gandalf wrote: »

As for learning a new language when you are older, yes it is hard. I am trying to learn French at the moment and am finding it a complete and utter bitch. But I have to, not because I am going for a job. I married one of those that came to our shores for a job. She's French and we have a 10 week old son who will be brought up bi-lingual. I have to learn French because otherwise he will be answering me in a language I won't understand.

Irish? lol.

I'm in a similar situation. I learned German because I wanted to move and work here (don't actually need it for work though, but it's nice to be included in German conversations in the office) and my GF is German so it's only fair that we speak both languages with each other and of course, we want kids and I want to be able to understand them when they speak German.

The Irish attempt at getting kids to learn foreign languages is about as useful as the same failed attempt at getting them to learn Irish. I left school with good points apart from my languages (Irish and German, I did ok in honours English funnily enough) which really let me down. I put it down to a lack of ability but now I know that was rubbish, I can speak German FFS! The teacher (she tought me both Irish and German) was just a load of rubbish and when I look back I realise that her German skills were attrocious (constantly looking in a dictionary).

Part of the fault lies in the fact (at least when I was a kid) that we don't learn ENGLISH grammar at school. At least not to the same extent that continentals learn about their own languages. It helps them A LOT to learn foreign languages.

RichardAnd · 22-08-2010 12:39PM

murphaph wrote: »

The Irish attempt at getting kids to learn foreign languages is about as useful as the same failed attempt at getting them to learn Irish. I left school with good points apart from my languages (Irish and German, I did ok in honours English funnily enough) which really let me down. I put it down to a lack of ability but now I know that was rubbish, I can speak German FFS! The teacher (she tought me both Irish and German) was just a load of rubbish and when I look back I realise that her German skills were attrocious (constantly looking in a dictionary).

Part of the fault lies in the fact (at least when I was a kid) that we don't learn ENGLISH grammar at school. At least not to the same extent that continentals learn about their own languages. It helps them A LOT to learn foreign languages.

Subjects taught in Irish schools are invariably flawed, languages or otherwise. The focus is on memorising data and regurgitation it, understanding is optional.

When I was in school, I excelled at two subjects, English and History but my grades for either were never exceptional. This was because I simply could not memorise off dozens of poems and quotes from books. Rather, I read them and tried to understand them but that doesn't get you an A.

But this is going off topic. I will say though that in my experience, intelligence has nothing to do with grades and sadly, in this country, this is a fact that seems to be utterly lost.

maninasia · 22-08-2010 01:20PM

Irish people shouldn't kick themselves too much for their atrocious language schools. It's the outdated teaching system, lack of opportunities and also the lack of incentives for learning that is the problem. Since we speak English we have little incentive like the rest of the world to learn the language of business and media, science, politics and entertainment. It's a prerequisite for most professionals worldwide. The continentals often live near countries with other languages, it's easier for them to do immersion study or to have opportunities to travel and interact with speakers of other languages.
I speak an Asian language fluently and it's not because I'm gifted but just because I have the incentive (family/work/life) by living here, I worked hard at it in my own time and I can pick it up because it's all around me. My French from school is almost non-existent despite being an honours students, we went through many teachers of varying awfulness..it was a miracle we learned anything!

So if you have kids consider to invest some money for them to study in a foreign country for 6 mths-1 year, if possible.

22-08-2010 01:45PM

maninasia wrote: »

Irish people shouldn't kick themselves too much for their atrocious language schools.

Perhaps, although it's arguable that the general populace isn't demanding good language teaching. But what Irish people definitely shouldn't do is criticise companies for not hiring underqualified Irish people instead of qualified immigrants

RichardAnd · 22-08-2010 01:48PM

maninasia wrote: »

Irish people shouldn't kick themselves too much for their atrocious language schools.

You're right, it's FF's fault, and the bankers, and don't forget them civil servants either.

It was them what made me not able to talk France!

:rolleyes:

Arsenal1986 · 22-08-2010 02:04PM

As an aside, I hear they are not a fantastic company to work for with regards to salary etc.

I know a couple of acquaintances that work there and they dont like it, the image of working for a 'cool' company like google is apparently a bit different then the reality.

ahal · 22-08-2010 04:34PM

gandalf wrote: »

To be honest I am not sure what people want here. The "errr they are taking our jobs arguement" doesn't apply to a lot of these types of jobs as they in some cases involve languages that Irish people will never get the chance to learn via our educational establishments.

I think I've already explained where I stand on that. Of the total unemployed in this country, a signifigant minority are 'non nationals'. If one of same leaves a job in Spar and takes up a job in Google, Irish person gets the job in Spar ... it's not a racial arguement it's a logical / numbers arguement. I don't see the point in adding to an existing pool of unemployed - both national and non national.

gandalf wrote: »

I worked (years ago) in a call centre environment and they had to change the majority of the German Team to native speakers because the Germans did not like buying from foreign sounding people.

Apart from the fact that any HR person saying that would be quite racist, sounds like an excuse to outsource jobs. This is where leadership is needed ... sure we need jobs, but large companies need to play by some rules.

gandalf wrote: »

At the end of the day 200 jobs is 200 jobs and we as an economy benefit from the taxes from these jobs and from the employees expenditure.

What, more money to put into Anglo? If activity doesn't result in jobs in the market, it's useless. The Govt. is just a big black hole. Not much good to the guy or girl in the dole que.

Incidentally, I worked with 3 Nigerians, one Latvian, one Belarusian, two Chinese and one Ukrainian. I worked with them all in 2 years, in the same job. It was a job that required two people, so for one of me there were 8 foreigners in that time. I eventually left, because my rights were being seriously eroded (others working my official roster, etc) The guy from Belarus went home because he couldn't take the way he was treated. The rest sat beside the phone to see if they were working a given day.

Now if someone can tell me that this is good, I'm all ears - and it was widespread. I'm not suggesting that large tech. companies are at the same lark (though no doubt some are) but there's a common thread. Someone who's not well established here will do anything to keep their job. That's called "flexibility" these days, I think, and amounts to a bad situation all 'round. It has more to do with exploiting fear than multiculturalism.

Of the 20% or so on the dole who are not originally Irish, Google can get their employees. If some of them need a bit of working on, enter Government and Fas. That should be the deal. I can see a colossal mess on the way as things stand. It's a no - brainer to continue recruiting abroad at this time.

At the end of the day, I can see a lot of major companies pulling out of Ireland as things are going. At the moment we're in a 'holding pattern' while they get their operations abroad set up, and what will be left is an even more massive amount of unemployed people. To those who choose to believe that I dislike foreigners, wait until you see the explosion of racism that will create (evidence: every other country in the World)

Ireland is basically a call centre. It seems illogical to me that someone comes from half way around the World to speak their native language in Dublin anyway. How long will it be before setup is in that country itself? In these days of telecommunications it's hardly a 'feat'. These jobs can be moved easily, and I'd love to know what the plan is (nothing?) for when they do.

No point in slagging me off, I'm just calling it as I see it. It'd be great if people got involved a bit more in the debate and stopped trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't invent AIDS / Famine / RTA's either :rolleyes:

22-08-2010 04:59PM

ahal wrote: »

sure we need jobs, but large companies need to play by some rules.

What rules? They already play by plenty, but what are you saying should be done in this situation? Google aren't allowed to hire people who apply who aren't resident already, regardless of their talent level? What about people who are resident here a week? A month? A year? Where do you want to draw the line?

ahal wrote: »

What, more money to put into Anglo? If activity doesn't result in jobs in the market, it's useless. The Govt. is just a big black hole. Not much good to the guy or girl in the dole que.

You realise the money is going out from the government either way? If we're not getting the money from the tax spent by immigrants, our expenditure doesn't go down

ahal wrote: »

Of the 20% or so on the dole who are not originally Irish, Google can get their employees. If some of them need a bit of working on, enter Government and Fas. That should be the deal. I can see a colossal mess on the way as things stand. It's a no - brainer to continue recruiting abroad at this time.

They almost certainly can't get the employees they need from the currently unemployed. And even if they could get the bare minimum, they could get a much higher quality by hiring the best applicants. If the people on the dole want a job at Google, they're free to apply, as is anyone who's eligible to work here. Google will pick the best applicants. What do you want them to do? Should they wait until the government and Fás manage to educate the workforce to suit their particular requirements? I suppose it'll only take a year or two, Google will surely be happy to wait around til then

ex6 · 22-08-2010 04:59PM

ahal wrote: »

Ireland is basically a call centre. It seems illogical to me that someone comes from half way around the World to speak their native language in Dublin anyway. How long will it be before setup is in that country itself? In these days of telecommunications it's hardly a 'feat'. These jobs can be moved easily, and I'd love to know what the plan is (nothing?) for when they do.

Well for big companies it is all about costs. For Google, Intel, HP, CPL, whoever, it does not matter if they pay someone lets say 20000-25000 yearly salary in Ireland, in UK, in France, in Germany or in lets say Latvia.

What matters, are all the related costs. If you have offices in 10 european countries, it means you have to own or rent 10 properties. you have to have 10 different local companies, different bookkeepers (as all countries have different book-keeping laws and even different amounts of VAT.). If you have that all is centralized to one place you will save costs.

Another thing is training your personel. My employer has couple of coatches here in Dublin, who teach and train people in Finnish, German, Dutch, French or Swedish speaking employees. Againg huge savings ... otherwize the coaches would have to give online training what is not so effective, or constantly be travelling from one local office to another.

Last but not least - having different people working in one place gives synergy... If I have a problem with my work, I can easily ask help from a dutch or danish guy sitting next to me... sure this could be done electronically in Instant Messenger... but not as effectively as in person.

oppenheimer1 · 22-08-2010 05:17PM

This site amazes and frustrates me at times. How can a job announcement be seen as a bad thing? So what if they need people from overseas to fill the vacancies.

ex6 · 22-08-2010 05:26PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This site amazes and frustrates me at times. How can a job announcement be seen as a bad thing? So what if they need people from overseas to fill the vacancies.

Well, many people seem to thing that:

IF
google is hiring someone outside of Ireland
THEN
some poor Irish guy or gal stays unemployed

This is true in "blue collar" type of jobs and companies ... but not true if you are after specifically skilled IT people.

Google's 200 new jobs ...

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