Midlands International Airport: Good idea or not?

veryangryman · 09-01-2010 02:12PM

A very common phrase used on this forum, ie "gombeenism" is used to poo-poo any sort of regional development opportunity. Its like the trendy phrase to use on boards.

Well guess what? Not all of us want to go near Dublin or any of its associated crap. I would hazard a guess that 50% of the workforce there would move away to the other regions if they had such an opportunity. No i dont have figures, but what i do have is a huge bunch of angry commuters on the C+T forum over rail strikes, traffic, gritting etc. God help those poor people if they maybe had a choice to live somewhere else and make a living without losing 4 hours of their day honking horns or queueing with scumbags and beggars on the Luas.

Was it "gombeenism" to put the Dept of Education/Ericsson/Elan offices in Athlone, some social welfare offices in Letterkenny, or other regional projects up and down the country? Ask these workers if theyd rather live in the capital

Yes the lions share should be in Dublin, but for gods sake, can you take the rods out of your backsides and actually give ideas the time of day before dismissing them as gombeenism.

10-01-2010 01:34PM

Another reason M O'Leary said he wouldn't want to use a Midlands airport is the simple fact that it's one of the foggiest parts of the country
Even with all the latest technology, pilots don't like landing in fog.
Drove past Clara yesterday morning, very thick fog!

edit: link to westmeath independant report

markpb · 10-01-2010 02:00PM

veryangryman wrote: »

A very common phrase used on this forum, ie "gombeenism" is used to poo-poo any sort of regional development opportunity. Its like the trendy phrase to use on boards.`

Gombeenism is a term used when people want everything to be built in their local area for no reason other than they don't want to travel to cities and can't accept that living away from cities means you can't have all the infrastructure of a city. Building an airport in Mullingar because you don't "want to go near Dublin or any of its associated crap" is a terrible reason to make national infrastructural decisions. If you said that there was no airport nearby and that the centre of Ireland was lacking in airports, it might be worth thinking about it but Ireland is so small that no-where is far from an airport.

what i do have is a huge bunch of angry commuters on the C+T forum over rail strikes, traffic, gritting etc. God help those poor people if they maybe had a choice to live somewhere else

The same threads are full of people from outside cities complaining that Dubs have it easy, that conditions are much worse, that they haven't been able to get to work/school for weeks. Is it possible that bad weather could affect parts outside Dublin too, sometimes worse?

Was it "gombeenism" to put the Dept of Education/Ericsson/Elan offices in Athlone, some social welfare offices in Letterkenny, or other regional projects up and down the country? Ask these workers if theyd rather live in the capital

If moving any government department fulfilled a social policy, provided the same level of service to customers and came at a negligible cost, it wasn't gombeenism. What actually happened was that the staff did not want to move. Land was bought, offices were built, people were denied promotions, communication and travel expenses went up as staff were split across two locations and the whole plan came crumbling to a halt.

If, as you claim, people wanted to leave Dublin, why was decentralisation such as disaster? None of this is relevant to the topic on hand, you're just demonstrating that the only reason you want the airport is because you dislike Dublin.

When the people of Horseleap realise the airport comes with a runway and over-flights for 18 hours a day, I'm fairly sure the level of pressure local TDs will face to block it will be unprecedented.

Baboushka · 11-01-2010 12:47PM

markpb wrote: »

Gombeenism is a term used when people want everything to be built in their local area for no reason other than they don't want to travel to cities and can't accept that living away from cities means you can't have all the infrastructure of a city.

Want to provide a dictionary link for this? I'll bet you can't. VAM was right on this one. Gombeenism is just a silly insult, used on this site by city folk to dimiss anything suggested for other areas. As in this case there are often good reasons dismiss the suggestions but the lazy and inarticulate tend to fall back on "gombeenism" and "parish pump" to make their points.

Building an airport in Mullingar because you don't "want to go near Dublin or any of its associated crap" is a terrible reason to make national infrastructural decisions. If you said that there was no airport nearby and that the centre of Ireland was lacking in airports, it might be worth thinking about it but Ireland is so small that no-where is far from an airport.

Noone is looking to build an airport in Mullingar so it might help if you looked at a map of Ireland.

If moving any government department fulfilled a social policy, provided the same level of service to customers and came at a negligible cost, it wasn't gombeenism. What actually happened was that the staff did not want to move. Land was bought, offices were built, people were denied promotions, communication and travel expenses went up as staff were split across two locations and the whole plan came crumbling to a halt.

What actually happened was that people did not want to move to those particular locations. The biggest problem with decentralisation was that those who tried to organise it failed to understand what decentralisation is. It is not about putting something in every town and village throughout the country. It would have been more successful if it just focused on some relocations to Cork, Limerick, Galway and maybe Waterford.

If, as you claim, people wanted to leave Dublin, why was decentralisation such as disaster? None of this is relevant to the topic on hand, you're just demonstrating that the only reason you want the airport is because you dislike Dublin.

When the people of Horseleap realise the airport comes with a runway and over-flights for 18 hours a day, I'm fairly sure the level of pressure local TDs will face to block it will be unprecedented.

One thing we can agree on is that they wont have to worry about theseover-flights because this pipe-dream is never going to happen.

leonardjos · 11-01-2010 02:00PM

My view on Irish airports is that they are all built in the wrong place.

Shannon should've been built on the edge of Limerick city on one of the many railway lines (in service and out of service) that serve the city and hinterland.

Knock should've been built on the edge of Galway city (likewise on a railway line).

Dublin Airport should've been built in another site which had rail access to the city. Although this mistake is easiest to correct with the proposed metro line.

Do we need another subsidised airport in the wrong place? - No.

Baboushka · 11-01-2010 02:44PM

leonardjos wrote: »

My view on Irish airports is that they are all built in the wrong place.

Shannon should've been built on the edge of Limerick city on one of the many railway lines (in service and out of service) that serve the city and hinterland.

Knock should've been built on the edge of Galway city (likewise on a railway line).

Dublin Airport should've been built in another site which had rail access to the city. Although this mistake is easiest to correct with the proposed metro line.

Do we need another subsidised airport in the wrong place? - No.

While I dont think that the location of Dublin or Shannon are such major issues, I certainly agree with your core argument. Imagine if, rather than investing so heavily in Knock, Kerry, Sligo and Donegal; we increased the length of the runways in both Galway and Waterford. This would surely have made both cities more attractive to live in and to invest in resulting in higher populations and more cost-effective centres of population.

dowlingm · 11-01-2010 07:40PM

If SNN had been built closer to Limerick the Aeroflot era would have been fairly hard on those under the flight path! I remember driving to Ennis when an Il-86 was taking off - plus the smoke trails!

Canada made a massive mistake with Mirabel - a cautionary tale of locating an airport for political reasons where people don't want to go and trying to force airlines to use it. At least SNN is an ETOPS diversion airport/US airbase :rolleyes:

Chris_533976 · 11-01-2010 08:46PM

Baboushka wrote: »

While I dont think that the location of Dublin or Shannon are such major issues, I certainly agree with your core argument. Imagine if, rather than investing so heavily in Knock, Kerry, Sligo and Donegal; we increased the length of the runways in both Galway and Waterford. This would surely have made both cities more attractive to live in and to invest in resulting in higher populations and more cost-effective centres of population.

Galway airport is too close to Shannon. Galway airport should go and Knock should be sorted. Ireland has far too many airports (and seaports, I mean for heavens sake Waterford, Rosslare AND New Ross dont need one each).

Baboushka · 13-01-2010 12:53PM

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Galway airport is too close to Shannon. Galway airport should go and Knock should be sorted. Ireland has far too many airports (and seaports, I mean for heavens sake Waterford, Rosslare AND New Ross dont need one each).

I agree with you but the ideal place for an airport on the West coast would have been Galway. As the earlier poster said the big mistake in this country has been the locating of infrstructure.

We do need some proper rationalising of infrastructure which makes the idea of a midlands airport even more stupid.

Neworder79 · 17-08-2010 11:52AM

Midlands/Offaly International Airport plan has passed a major hurdle today being granted Strategic Infrastructure Status on the grounds that:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0817/1224276972609.html

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/PC0074.htm

An Bord Pleanála report ..."Having regard to the nature and scale of the proposed facility comprising, in the 1st instance, a 2.8 km long runway, 6,000 sq.m. terminal building and ancillary airport facilities, with 2 million passengers to be attained by 2020, it is my opinion that the proposed development would comprise ‘an airport (with not less than 2 million instances of passenger use per annum) or any runway, taxiway, pier, car park, terminal or other facility or installation related to it (whether as regards passenger traffic or cargo traffic)’’. I would tend to concur with the prospective applicant’s contention that it is the purpose of the size and capability of the airport that makes it strategic. The aim is to provide for 2 million passengers by 2020 with the applicant providing supporting information to corroborate its claims that such a target is attainable."

An Bord Pleanála report ..." In terms of the criteria set out in section 37(2) and without addressing the specific planning
merits, in my view, the proposed development would:
(a) be of strategic economic importance to the region and the state in that it is aiming to provide a reliever airport to Dublin airport and increase competition in the aviation market.
(b) contribute to the realisation of the objectives of the National Spatial Strategy by improving accessibility and connectivity in the Midlands region which could assist in the improvement in the economic performance within the gateway.
(c) by reason of the scale of the project, in such close proximity to County
Westmeath would be likely to have a significant effect on the area of more than one planning authority."

Plans submitted to An Board Pleanala include:

2.7km long and 60 metre wide runway (with the potential for its expansion to 3.5km)
with a capacity to accommodate 9 million passengers.
• 6,000 sqm. terminal building with capacity for 2 million passengers.
• Ancillary aviation services including cargo related business, hangars/maintenance
building, fire station, control tower.
• Carparking
• Business Park

"The proposed project is to act as a reliever airport for Dublin and is expected to reach 2 million passengers per annum by 2020. There is potential for cargo business at 50,000 tonnes per annum. A rail line and station within the airport, which will connect to the Dublin-Galway rail line to the south, is proposed."

dubhthach · 17-08-2010 12:39PM

If the airport ever gets built and Ryanair decided to operate out of it then I can expect it to be branded "Dublin West International Airport" :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob · 17-08-2010 01:11PM

dubhthach wrote: »

If the airport ever gets built and Ryanair decided to operate out of it then I can expect it to be branded "Dublin West International Airport" :rolleyes:

Liverpool West would be a typical Ryanair name for something like this

saywhatyousee · 17-08-2010 09:23PM

this is madness all these airports are ridiculous
waterford,donegal,sligo,galway,kerry
i would close them all
it madness to think ireland has 8 international airports:eek:

veryangryman · 17-08-2010 09:28PM

saywhatyousee wrote: »

this is madness all these airports are ridiculous
waterford,donegal,sligo,galway,kerry
i would close them all
it madness to think ireland has 8 international airports:eek:

Dude. Until the Infrastructure gets sorted, every one is needed.

Kerry long way from Cork/Shannon on crap roads
Donegal long way from Derry on crap roads
Sligo (not far but) from Knock on crap roads
Galway long way from Knock/Shannon on crap roads
Waterford long way from Cork on mainly crap roads

Find a comparative country in size and population and check wiki for its airport list. You might be surprised at the findings

Godge · 17-08-2010 10:42PM

veryangryman wrote: »

Dude. Until the Infrastructure gets sorted, every one is needed.

Kerry long way from Cork/Shannon on crap roads
Donegal long way from Derry on crap roads
Sligo (not far but) from Knock on crap roads
Galway long way from Knock/Shannon on crap roads
Waterford long way from Cork on mainly crap roads

Find a comparative country in size and population and check wiki for its airport list. You might be surprised at the findings

What is a long way? Tired driving from Luton into London or Hahn into Frankfurt?

If we improved access to Shannon by building a bridge across the Shannon north of Limerick, it would be just over 2 hours to West Dublin. Adding in the tunnel and the upgrade of the Cork/Limerick road and the Limerick/Galway road, over 80% of the population would be within two hours of Shannon, Belfast or Dublin. Why need any more airports?

Zebra3 · 17-08-2010 11:52PM

I don't think this is about building one international airport in the midlands.

The real decision is do we build two international airports in the midlands. I mean if people from Westmeath don't want to drive up to Dublin cos of its "associated crap", what happens if they don't like any associated crap of Offaly if we build one there?

Best to be on the safe side....

:rolleyes:

17-08-2010 11:54PM

At least if we have an airport in the midlands, we won't need to pay any more road tolls!

Sponge Bob · 18-08-2010 12:46AM

I could kind of understand this project if the runway were as long as Dublin Runway 2 ( proposed) for the ultra long haul traffic Dublin cannot handle as it cannot take off fully loaded and which runway is not to be built for quite some some time in Dublin.

This would require 3100 metres of runway not 2700 metres just like the 'too short' Runway 1 in Dublin now has.

Shannon has 3200 metres of runway and can handle ultra large ultra long haul planes, seen them myself down there.

Replicating Dublin Runway 1 seems utterly pointless to me.

dubhthach · 18-08-2010 07:11AM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Shannon has 3200 metres of runway and can handle ultra large ultra long haul planes, seen them myself down there.

Replicating Dublin Runway 1 seems utterly pointless to me.

Shannon's runway is also designated as an emergency landing site for the Space Shuttle (if they overshoot florida on landing). It was also one of the sites on the Soviet Nuclear target list, as they reckoned they US would use it for troop transport if the cold war turned hot.

veryangryman · 18-08-2010 08:18AM

Godge wrote: »

What is a long way? Tired driving from Luton into London or Hahn into Frankfurt?

100 miles on a good road vs 100 miles on a bad road. It becomes about time, which i think you understand by the unquoted part of your post.

By all means close down 2-3 of that list when we get DC sorted on all interurbans + Atlantic corridoor. But were looking at 20 years before that is realistic. For now, i stick with my point that they are needed to avoid rural isolation for quite alot of the country's citzens

markpb · 18-08-2010 08:21AM

veryangryman wrote: »

they are needed to avoid rural isolation for quite alot of the country's citzens

The rest of your post was fine but this takes the biscuit. You don't solve rural isolation problems with airports and you don't build airports, especially not international ones, for rural areas.

veryangryman · 18-08-2010 08:43AM

markpb wrote: »

The rest of your post was fine but this takes the biscuit. You don't solve rural isolation problems with airports and you don't build airports, especially not international ones, for rural areas.

What im saying is that without proper infrastructure, they are needed. Right now. Yes they likely should not have been built prior to DCs being built but we are where we are. Close Galway and Sligo after Atlantic corridoor open. Donegal and Kerry, id keep for access to Dublin as they will never have decent enough roads.

saywhatyousee · 18-08-2010 02:10PM

yeah no need for galway and sligo airports
galway is an hour from knock and shannon
sligo is 40 minutes from knock

KevR · 18-08-2010 03:47PM

saywhatyousee wrote: »

yeah no need for galway and sligo airports
galway is an hour from knock and shannon
sligo is 40 minutes from knock

It's just a pity that there are so many airports on the West Coast, each with their own diluted timetables which can't compete with Dublin. I have 3 airports within an hour of where I live (Galway, Knock and Shannon) but I end up having to use Dublin almost everytime I fly anywhere simply because I can't get flights that I want/suit my needs from the other airports. It's a crazy situation that the West of Ireland is in regarding airports.

coolperson05 · 19-08-2010 01:24AM

Surely if they closed Sligo/Galway/Donegal and really worked on Knock? That got a new terminal a while ago. Make this a big Ryanair hub for all the west. Get Shannon back on the long haul track by improving access (eg. the mentioned bridge. And people on the south and east can use Cork/Dublin. 4 Good airports are better than 7/8 substandard. Ryanair and Aerlingus need to be encourage to support Shannon/Knock better. I think Knock all the way with new M18/M19

Neworder79 · 19-08-2010 09:06AM

It's just a pity that there are so many airports on the West Coast, each with their own diluted timetables which can't compete with Dublin. I have 3 airports within an hour of where I live (Galway, Knock and Shannon) but I end up having to use Dublin almost everytime I fly anywhere simply because I can't get flights that I want/suit my needs from the other airports. It's a crazy situation that the West of Ireland is in regarding airports.

Surely if they closed Sligo/Galway/Donegal and really worked on Knock? That got a new terminal a while ago. Make this a big Ryanair hub for all the west. Get Shannon back on the long haul track by improving access (eg. the mentioned bridge. And people on the south and east can use Cork/Dublin. 4 Good airports are better than 7/8 substandard. Ryanair and Aerlingus need to be encourage to support Shannon/Knock better. I think Knock all the way with new M18/M19

You are correct in saying the number and proximity of western airports dilutes the market through over competition and results in a poorer offering for the customer overall, through thinly spread routes, low frequency, poorly developed airports.

However "they" (I presume you mean the government) have no control as all bar Shannon are privately run, as will the proposed Midlands airport. If they had a coherent aviation policy they might look at air access strategically and focus public grants and investment only on 2/3 key gateways and providing quality access to them, such as Shannon and Knock in the West, which already have the infrastructure to handle growth. But the current Governments policy seems to be "goodies for all", especially come election time.

cson · 19-08-2010 12:00PM

You ressurrect Shannon very easily imo if you made a Long Haul hub for Ryanair. Yes Ryanair. I'm sure O'Leray is exploring expanding into Low cost Long Haul and if made Shannon a hub for all Ryanair Long Haul flights you could well route a lot of passenger traffic through it.

Sponge Bob · 19-08-2010 11:20PM

cson wrote: »

You ressurrect Shannon very easily imo if you made a Long Haul hub for Ryanair. Yes Ryanair.

News from 2008, O'Leary said quite a lot but never mentioned Shannon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfIY24BErBE

SeanW · 20-08-2010 12:43AM

I live in, and love, the Midlands.

And I think this is a lousy idea. Ireland has too many airports already, especially along the West coast. These have often been "developed" at the cost of policies affecting Dublin, for example, in a "cutting of your nose to spite your face" fashion. This airport could not possibly justify its existance as an International Airport, unless it was Ryanairport named "Dublin (Horseleap)"

All the good roads and railways lead to Dublin. Living in Longford for example, an international airport would about as much use to me being in Timbuktu as being somewhere in Offaly. I would be much better served if the politicians invested in Dublin Airport properly, so that it could handle one of these babies for example. As would almost everyone in Leinster outside of Co. Offaly.

G_R · 20-08-2010 12:55PM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfIY24BErBE

that man is a genius, give the people what they want:D:D:D

Midlands International Airport: Good idea or not?

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