The skill of cycling.

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 12:07AM

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I must disagree. I am sure Pete has not had and will continue to without difficulty have no difficulty in concluding that there is no way that his body has / will have the potential to reach TDF endurance levels, even if he lived and trained like a pro and had started at age -9 months even even!!

Granted the world is indeed eartly.

but there is no way. a short sprint is all i got.

tomasrojo · 12-08-2010 12:10AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

There is plenty of research that shows that to become world class on a musical instrument or a high skilled sports are as the result of an early start with constant good quality repetitive practice and not any god given/genetic gift.

I don't know much about becoming proficient in sport, but this isn't true for music. There are certain innate gifts that some individuals have and others don't. It's impossible to imagine becoming a concert-standard musician without a great deal of work, but it doesn't mean that anyone who puts in a great deal of work can become a concert-standard musician. Ask any music teacher and they'll tell you that some pupils make extraordinary progress in almost no time, while others plod along for years, barely improving.

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 12:11AM

Slideshowbob wrote: »

You can point to better examples than that surely?

Of course its an over simplified version of what happens. But if you can point me to a study that shows that any human can reach TDF level fitness (And that study must not be conducted by Michele Ferrari), then I will concede that you are correct.

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 12:18AM

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't know much about becoming proficient in sport, but this isn't true for music. There are certain innate gifts that some individuals have and others don't. It's impossible to imagine becoming a concert-standard musician without a great deal of work, but it doesn't mean that anyone who puts in a great deal of work can become a concert-standard musician. Ask any music teacher and they'll tell you that some pupils make extraordinary progress in almost no time, while others plod along for years, barely improving.

The time spent practising is an over simplification, it must be quality practise. And students may be plodding along because they aren't in fact practising and just turning up for lessons.

Slideshowbob · 12-08-2010 12:27AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

" It takes supreme dedication and mental toughness to seperate yourself from the other equally gifted athletes. But the skill level is not high. .

You think you don't need high neuromuscular Skills to be a good cyclist?
You think all that separated the TDf winners and second was dedication and mental toughness? I don't because physical ability is more fundamental

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 12:43AM

Slideshowbob wrote: »

You think you don't need high neuromuscular Skills to be a good cyclist?

I suppose we'll have to define the term neuromuscular skill first. What do you mean by this neuromuscular skill. Its hard to find a proper definition for it on the web.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

You think all that separated the TDf winners and second was dedication and mental toughness? I don't because physical ability is more fundamental

No. I didn't say that.

lol, Actually I said something similar to that but it was an incomplete list of all things necessary

hinault · 12-08-2010 12:51AM

I agree with those posters who suggest that dedication/discipline count for a lot more than skill when it comes to being a good/great cyclist.

Having said that - and I don't like to name drop - I was great friends with Laurence Roche brother of you know who.
And in my racing career back then, I have never seen anyone race as smoothly as he did.
All the Roches just had this inate quality where they fit a bike perfectly.

Is this learned ? or is it just natural?
I think part of it is natural to be fair.
That is not to say that he didn't work extremely hard to achieve what he did.
He did work very hard.
But he had natural ability, skill if you like.

hinault · 12-08-2010 12:54AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

So you are telling me that had I started early enough that I could have been the 10,000km athletics champion of the world or even of Ireland? I'd say I wouldn't win a club race had I started at age 1.

There are many examples of people turning up in cycling and being good at it out of the blocks. Because they were born with superior cardiovascular capacity. I was not and there is no way on this earthly world I could develop it. Are you suggesting the human body is endlessly adaptable? when it comes to speed an endurance?

Also, I don't want this to come across as me dissing cycling. It takes supreme dedication and mental toughness to seperate yourself from the other equally gifted athletes. But the skill level is not high. Sure look at denis menchov. He cycles like a drunk and he won a giro.

Ullrich in 1996 and 1997 T'sDF was dreadful when it came to bike skills.
The man could not descend properly.
He took corners at a snails place. His angle of approach to said corner was all wrong.

Didn't stop him finishing 2nd on GC in 1996 and 1st on GC in 1997.

brianthebard · 12-08-2010 12:55AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

So you are telling me that had I started early enough that I could have been the 10,000km athletics champion of the world or even of Ireland? I'd say I wouldn't win a club race had I started at age 1.

There are many examples of people turning up in cycling and being good at it out of the blocks. Because they were born with superior cardiovascular capacity. I was not and there is no way on this earthly world I could develop it. Are you suggesting the human body is endlessly adaptable? when it comes to speed an endurance?

Also, I don't want this to come across as me dissing cycling. It takes supreme dedication and mental toughness to seperate yourself from the other equally gifted athletes. But the skill level is not high. Sure look at denis menchov. He cycles like a drunk and he won a giro.

Yes very much so. Now granted I can't prove it, but neither can you prove that if you had started at a year old it would have changed anything. So I guess we're about even in that regard. Without knowing the background of those newcomers, their training, goals, etc, its very hard to say that they dominated cycling out of the blue. Its far easier to surmise that they were training at endurance sports beforehand and thus found it relatively to transfer over.

Now, full disclosure, I don't believe in the genetic argument, which might and will be made in the next few pages of this thread, but generally speaking disregarding outliers I feel my argument holds firm.

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 12:55AM

hinault wrote: »

But he had natural ability, skill if you like.

I thought the whole point of this debate was that skill was acquired and talent was genetic?

DirkVoodoo · 12-08-2010 12:58AM

brianthebard wrote: »

Once a person takes away their bias and love for a sport they will realise that dedication and discipline count far more than 'innate' skill than anything else. Moreover, innate skill can and is programmed into athletes. With the right amount of time training and will anyone can take up any sport and be very good at it. imo....

I don't think any amount of training or practice can make a mediocre footballer as good as Messi.

Some people are just naturally gifted and excel at a particular sport (or several!).

hinault · 12-08-2010 12:58AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

I thought the whole point of this debate was that skill was acquired and talent was genetic?

I'm convinced that what Laurence (and Stephen) had was genetic, having seen them up close.

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 01:05AM

brianthebard wrote: »

Yes very much so. Now granted I can't prove it, but neither can you prove that if you had started at a year old it would have changed anything. So I guess we're about even in that regard. Without knowing the background of those newcomers, their training, goals, etc, its very hard to say that they dominated cycling out of the blue. Its far easier to surmise that they were training at endurance sports beforehand and thus found it relatively to transfer over.

No its far easier to surmise that Lemond was doing down hill skiing, Hinault was cycling to work and Fignon played a bit football. They all took up cycle racing and from the word go were awesome at it. Because they were genetically far superior. Had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis. Same goes if Fignon had grown up cycle racing all his life and then suddenly decided to switch to football.

And even if they had been doing endurance sports. what transferred over was their endurance and fitness not skill.

brianthebard · 12-08-2010 01:18AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

No its far easier to surmise that Lemond was doing down hill skiing, Hinault was cycling to work and Fignon played a bit football. They all took up cycle racing and from the word go were awesome at it. Because they were genetically far superior. Had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis. Same goes if Fignon had grown up cycle racing all his life and then suddenly decided to switch to football.

And even if they had been doing endurance sports. what transferred over was their endurance and fitness not skill.

Right and that's where the genetic outliers argument comes in. However I don't believe, and you have no way of proving, that 'had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis.'

You're right to say that their endurance and fitness transferred over, that was my argument all along.

adrianshanahan · 12-08-2010 01:19AM

The Skill of Cycling....

Why people on this topic being so narrow minded thinking road cycling is the be all / end all of cycling or even the peak of cycling ability?

There is no denying that the TDF cyclist are absolute cycling machines, but look at this and re consider your value of cycling skills...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19zFlPah-o

or look at any top end Down Hill MTB race and see the skills on display there or even elite XC MTBers who combine technical cycling skills along with race and endurance.

But hey I'm not at this very long or any good so I wouldn't know very much.

Adrian

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 01:44AM

adrianshanahan wrote: »

what adrian said

I was just thinking of all these examples as I was driving home from work. I'd agree they require high amounts of learned skill. Also Cadel Evan's handling skills helped him to a stage win in the Giro. But that stage and Paris Roubaix are an exception rather than the rule in road cycling.

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 02:13AM

brianthebard wrote: »

However I don't believe, and you have no way of proving, that 'had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis.'

We have proof in the fact that he skiied before he ever bike raced. And he's not a winter olympic gold medalists but a TDF winner. About 2 minutes in to this interview you will hear him say he downhill and freestyle skiied, fished, camped and went for cycles with his Dad. Then he took up cycle racing at 14 and won his first eleven races. Then asked to be moved up categories for a challenge.
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2006/08/20greg-lemond/

brianthebard · 12-08-2010 02:16AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

We have proof in the fact that he skiied before he ever bike raced. And he's not a winter olympic gold medalists but a TDF winner. About 2 minutes in to this interview you will hear him say he downhill and freestyle skiied, fished, camped and went for cycles with his Dad. Then he took up cycle racing at 14 and won his first eleven races. Then asked to be moved up categories for a challenge.
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2006/08/20greg-lemond/

That's nowhere near proof. That just means he used to do a particular sport and now he does another. If anything it means that cycling was a less skillful sport and his previous experience meant he was able to transfer between the two easily. Perhaps if it was the other way around he would have needed more training to be as good as skiing.

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 02:28AM

brianthebard wrote: »

If anything it means that cycling was a less skillful sport

which is what i have been saying all along. so we're on the same team? grand. I must go to sleep now.

brianthebard · 12-08-2010 02:35AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

which is what i have been saying all along. so we're on the same team? grand. I must go to sleep now.

afraid not because you've argued in favour of genetic skill and the suggestion that you would not be capable of being a better endurance athlete regardless of time spent training for such, which is pretty much the opposite of what I've argued.

Slideshowbob · 12-08-2010 07:41AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

I thought the whole point of this debate was that skill was acquired and talent was genetic?

Ability to adapt to learn skills etc is genetic

Slideshowbob · 12-08-2010 07:43AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

No its far easier to surmise that Lemond was doing down hill skiing, Hinault was cycling to work and Fignon played a bit football. They all took up cycle racing and from the word go were awesome at it. Because they were genetically far superior. Had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis. Same goes if Fignon had grown up cycle racing all his life and then suddenly decided to switch to football.

And even if they had been doing endurance sports. what transferred over was their endurance and fitness not skill.

if if if my aunt had balls she be related to Vinokurov

blorg · 12-08-2010 09:13AM

Slideshowbob wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RNAYR3KPIg

Great crash, I hadn't seen that one, thanks. Apart from Freire managing to stop and stay upright watch Flecha slide through a rapidly closing gap in the middle of the crash, look back and then shake his head crossing the line. A real nice, whew! that was close moment, I am sure we have all had them.

On the subject of miraculous saves, I am sure most of you have seen this one, Gregory Bauge in the 2009 track world championships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-z0Kh0pvNM

tomasrojo · 12-08-2010 11:02AM

petethedrummer wrote: »

The time spent practising is an over simplification, it must be quality practise. And students may be plodding along because they aren't in fact practising and just turning up for lessons.

Quality practice will mean a pupil makes more progress than that same pupil would make with unfocussed practice.

But some pupils are just better at playing than others, if not from the very beginning, at least early on. It's usually a complex of skills that they possess, some of which are physical and some of which are mental. Some are down to personality. An ability to play with restraint and taste is partly an aspect of personality, and some people with phenomenal technique never acquire it.

There are even some elementary physical differences that make a difference. If a pupil has poor ability to stretch their fingers apart or has very short fingers or both, then they won't be able to progress very far playing classical guitar. I'm sure that's true of other musical disciplines, but classical guitar is the one I know something about.

So while quality practice is very important in becoming excellent at anything worthwhile, it really isn't everything (unfortunately).

petethedrummer · 12-08-2010 11:14AM

sorry can't reply, I'm on site commissioning. can't doss today.:(

seamus · 12-08-2010 11:19AM

I think it would be silly to suggest that nothing is out of the reach of anyone. There are subtle physical differences in everyone. And while it's possible for almost anyone to reach the "good amateur" level at almost anything (unless they have an actual disability), the top spots and highest level of competition are reserved for those who possess both the necessary physical and mental traits to get to that level. Simply having the genetic physique is never enough.

I'm pretty sure everyone at some point knows someone in school who annihilated the competition at <insert hobby>, everyone was convinced they'd become a professional, but when they reached their teen years they simply faded out because they didn't have the mental determination/focus/stamina to go through it.

Exactly the same, we probably all know someone who spends their days and nights working at <insert hobby>, but has never progressed beyond the amateur barrier.

I think what gives us the false sense of possible achievement is the sheer numbers involved. When you look at the TDF and see 200 riders, it seems as though there are lots, therefore it must be something reachable by even your average Joe.
But when you consider that there are 7 billion people on this planet and only 200 have the physical and mental capacity to make the TDF this year, it goes to show just how elite the top-level of any competition really is.

Granted, 7 billion people don't cycle, but even if we have 2 million competitive cyclists worldwide, then that means that only 1 in every 10,000 competitive cyclists has the ability to make the top level.

The idea that everyone has the potential to make good of themselves is totally worthwhile. The idea that everyone has the potential to the best is complete nonsense. Only a fraction of people have the potential to be the best.

brianthebard · 12-08-2010 11:51AM

seamus wrote: »

Granted, 7 billion people don't cycle, but even if we have 2 million competitive cyclists worldwide, then that means that only 1 in every 10,000 competitive cyclists has the ability to make the top level.

The idea that everyone has the potential to make good of themselves is totally worthwhile. The idea that everyone has the potential to the best is complete nonsense. Only a fraction of people have the potential to be the best.

I don't disagree with what you're saying here, and I agree that only a few will ever be the best of the best, that's what outliers are. But when we think about things like the TDF we have to (imo) keep in mind the business aspects of the event and also that the TDF is not open to 2million cyclists regardless of whether they were all capable or not. Which clearly not all of them would be, but, you know what I mean....

I guess the point is, anyone can have the skills and with dedication and training, can become quite good. However not everyone can progress to elite level, for numerous reasons outside of simple issues of skill and dedication, just like not everyone in a company can become CEO regardless of whether they would be capable or not.

adrianshanahan · 12-08-2010 11:52AM

Now here is a roadie with some serious skills....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z1fSpZNXhU

Lumen · 12-08-2010 11:58AM

adrianshanahan wrote: »

Now here is a roadie trials rider on a road bike with some serious skills....

Edited for accuracy.

Is that not MacAskill? It's amazing what being born ginger will do for some people.

adrianshanahan · 12-08-2010 12:10PM

It may well be McAskill, either way its pretty savage.

The skill of cycling.

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