The skill of cycling.

snollup

After reading Zorba's signature aloud, Cycling, it takes a lot of hard work just to be average., my wife just asked me the follow:

Is there a skill to cycling or is it just a question of being really fit and pedaling as fast as possible?

I'm finding it difficult to answer her, can you help please?

Thanks.

godihatedehills

I've long thought the factors affecting your success in cycling are dedication and discipline more than any innate skill.

Slideshowbob

Good bike handling skills are important once racing.

Being able to read a race and compete intelligently conserving energy in a massed start race is also a skill.

godihatedehills

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Good bike handling skills are important once racing.

Being able to read a race and compete intelligently conserving energy in a massed start race is also a skill.

Both true.

I meant more physical skills than tactical ones. Also, bike handling skills are important in a race but they probably won't win it for you.

Slideshowbob

godihatedehills wrote: »

Both true.

I meant more physical skills than tactical ones. Also, bike handling skills are important in a race but they probably won't win it for you.

What you mean by physical skill? can you describe one for another sport?

happygoose

I think you'll get a slightly biased answer to this here in 410, ask the same question in another sports forum and you'll get a different answer.

shaungil

For racing, choosing correct gears at the right time, following the right wheels, picking the right line out of a corner, knowing when to go into the red to go with the right break, knowing when to go into the red to hang on for dear life, avoid catching the wind by drafting in the correct place, letting on your dying to avoid doing a turn, doing a turn when every muscle below your waist is cramping so your break doesn't get caught, sitting on and kidding others into chasing a break so you can get place in the sprint.

Raced tonight with some big boys and the skills they have make life so much easy for them Oh yeah and they are unbelievably fast too.

Captain Havoc

happygoose wrote: »

I think you'll get a slightly biased answer to this here in 410, ask the same question in another sports forum and you'll get a different answer.

Probably because non cyclists won't understand the skills involved in cycling, some can't understand drafting. I'm sure half the posters here couldn't tell you the strenghts and weaknesses of different soccer tactics because they don't follow it. I did a small bit of league racing this year and quickly discovered it's a whole different ball game, at a guess I'd say it's a different sport when you're at A1?

Lumen

When people talk of sporting skill, they generally mean brain-body skills like hand-eye co-ordination which involve precise co-ordination of muscle movements and timing, rather than mind skills like tactical awareness. The cycling equivalent of those skills is bike handling.

For me, the important thing is not whether skills are necessary. Riding a bike without stabilisers is a necessary skill, but every cyclist can do that. The important factor is whether (bike handling) skills win races, and I don't think they do for the most part, with the odd bizarre exception like Schlecking off your chain at a critical moment.

There are sports with less "skill" involved, like distance running. But compared to something like F1, where drivers have needed to produce a specific amount of force during braking to within a couple of percent of perfection, whilst travelling at 300kph, moderating 1000bhp under their right foot, and having their head almost torn off by deceleration forces, cycling is not skill-oriented.

That says nothing of the heavy tactical requirements, or the mental toughness required in training, but other sports have those too.

That said, descending properly really takes some skill, but I suspect that some of the pros just don't practice enough.

Slideshowbob

I think in considering other sports with high skills soccer is a much better example than formula 1 motor racing.

Motor racing is elitist. How many great drivers could be out there but they didn't have access as a kid to start car racing?

Where-as football is alot more accessible

shaungil

Knowing position of photographer to be at front for photos.

Staro give master classes on thsi one.

brianthebard

godihatedehills wrote: »

I've long thought the factors affecting your success in cycling are dedication and discipline more than any innate skill.

Once a person takes away their bias and love for a sport they will realise that dedication and discipline count far more than 'innate' skill than anything else. Moreover, innate skill can and is programmed into athletes. With the right amount of time training and will anyone can take up any sport and be very good at it. imo....

Lumen

@SSB, after reading the link you posted on the other thread.

If cycling requires so much skill, then how can someone be winning a Junior World Championship after only doing it for a year?

You wouldn't get that in any ball sport I can think of.

petethedrummer

brianthebard wrote: »

With the right amount of time training and will anyone can take up any sport and be very good at it. imo....

Hmmm there's a limit when it comes to cycling, endurance sports and sprinting. I think you have your natural aerobic/anerobic capacity which you can only improve on so much... its not limitless

When they started cycling Lemond, Hinault and Fignon all destroyed their competition without much experience of cycle racing. Fair enough, Hinault had done alot of cycling as a means to get around but in his book he says he could lap the entire field in circuit races.

Christophe Lemaitre started track sprinting(running) at 15 and didn't know anything about the sport and is now the European champion at 20. There is no way he'd go from zero to being european champion at golf in 5 years.

Rebecca Romero came from rowing and was almost immediately successful in cycling. If she started at golf at a late age. She'd never get results as quick.

My own glittering sports career consists of being totally sedentary for my teenage years, returning to gaa at 23 and being at the head of training sprints. But midpack on long runs, which never really improved, certainly not to be anywhere near the front. My housemate who does alot less cycling than me, destroys me on flat spins. But for as long as we both shall live, he will not beat me in a sprint. So I can safely conclude that there is no way in this earthly world that my body has the potential to reach TDF endurance levels, even if I lived and trained like a pro and had started at age 1.

Slideshowbob

Lumen wrote: »

@SSB, after reading the link you posted on the other thread.

If cycling requires so much skill, then how can someone be winning a Junior World Championship after only doing it for a year?

You wouldn't get that in any ball sport I can think of.

You can be born with skill / apptitude for certain sports wouldn't you agree!?!

Anyway if ye all wana be real smart about it just google neuromuscular skills!

http://www.endurancefit.com/tag/neuromuscular-skills/

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Motor racing is elitist. How many great drivers could be out there but they didn't have access as a kid to start car racing?

'Forget Senna and Schuey. Tommy Byrne was the best of them all.' Eddie Jordan...I'm not sure this is relevant to anything but I thought I'd post it.

FISMA

Cycling is a mental game.

How many times are you trying to drop someone, just about to give up, legs crying out for mercy, and then it happens. The lad on your wheel starts to drop back.

Next comes that surge of Energy, from where? Who knows? But the second you sense weakness, game on.

Slideshowbob

There's also a "skill" to writing about your efforts post-competition on boards :rolleyes:

Lumen

Slideshowbob wrote: »

You can be born with skill / aptitude for certain sports wouldn't you agree!?!

No.

If you mean "you can be born with aptitude for certain classes of sports", e.g. aerobic vs sprint well obviously yes. But skill is not the same as aptitude, since aptitude incorporates physical aspects (such as muscle type) completely unrelated to skill.

Hence why people can transfer fairly quickly between cross country running, rowing, skiing and cycling (e.g. Rebecca Romero, with world medals in rowing and cycling only a year apart).

Any examples of world class football players going to tennis, or vice versa?

petethedrummer

FISMA wrote: »

Cycling is a mental game.

Its no more mental than any other sport. In fact golf/darts/snooker or any sport where you can develop the yips have a much greater mental element.

Slideshowbob

Lumen wrote: »

No.

If you mean "you can be born with aptitude for certain classes of sports", e.g. aerobic vs sprint well obviously yes. But skill is not the same as aptitude, since aptitude incorporates physical aspects (such as muscle type) completely unrelated to skill.

Hence why people can transfer fairly quickly between cross country running, rowing, skiing and cycling (e.g. Rebecca Romero, with world medals in rowing and cycling only a year apart).

Any examples of world class football players going to tennis, or vice versa?

hmmm why may one 14 year old with no practice but great hand-eye co-ordination be a better tennis player than one who is more aerobically fit? he may have a certain dexterity / apptitude for tennis which is in fact a skill!! He can still work on this! You need a aptitude for a skill which can be god given / genetic.

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

There's also a "skill" to writing about your efforts post-competition on boards :rolleyes:

You win the prize for most condesending poster hands down.

Slideshowbob

petethedrummer wrote: »

You win the prize for most condesending poster hands down.

Yes - only in terms of former cycling glories - clearly not in eloquence and plaumaucing on boards

mcgratheoin

Lumen wrote: »

Schlecking off your chain at a critical moment.

Oooh, I like this - I predict a new verb in the lexicon of cycling
"I Shlecked my chain off attacking on the climb" :cool:

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

hmmm why may one 14 year old with no practice but great hand-eye co-ordination be a better tennis player than one who is more aerobically fit? he may have a certain dexterity / apptitude for tennis which is in fact a skill!! He can still work on this! You need a aptitude for a skill which can be god given / genetic.

There is plenty of research that shows that to become world class on a musical instrument or a high skilled sports are as the result of an early start with constant good quality repetitive practice and not any god given/genetic gift.

Slideshowbob

petethedrummer wrote: »

There is plenty of research that shows that to become world class on a musical instrument or a high skilled sports are as the result of an early start with constant good quality repetitive practice and not any god given/genetic gift.

If there is plenty of research should be easy for you to provide a few links on the topic if you would be so kind?

There are also the bully type parents you have to factor when you get into those sort of "past-times" for kids.

Back to the topic though - one rider who would stand out for me as particularly skilled is Oscar Friere. If you look at this video you can see he is behind Boonen in the black jersey and has to do some serious jamming on to avoid the pile up. There's actually another pic somewhere on the web which shows smoke eminating from his tyres as he skidded at this incident.

Also, Friere won his world titles with great skill iirc, peaking at the right time in the season with prior injuries to contend with, finding the right group to be in the selections at the finish. That would also be a skill to me in cycling - using your aptitude / dexterity getting the optimum from your body / resources to achieve the best possible result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RNAYR3KPIg

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

If there is plenty of research should be easy for you to provide a few links on the topic if you would be so kind?

http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&q=10000+hours+of+practice&aq=f&aqi=g-c1g2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=b029d84a58fd62cf

brianthebard

petethedrummer wrote: »

Hmmm there's a limit when it comes to cycling, endurance sports and sprinting. I think you have your natural aerobic/anerobic capacity which you can only improve on so much... its not limitless.
So I can safely conclude that there is no way in this earthly world that my body has the potential to reach TDF endurance levels, even if I lived and trained like a pro and had started at age 1.

you have no way of proving that assertion though, which is why people can inject conjecture and opinion into their 'scientific' understanding of sports. All I can say is that it is possible to convert Type I muscle fibres to perform Type II fibres. This should tell you all you need to know about aerobic/anaerobic capacity.

Lumen wrote: »

No.

Any examples of world class football players going to tennis, or vice versa?

If you're making money in a sport why would you change? or vice versa?

Slideshowbob

A link to 10,000 hours of practice? :eek:

Would you advocate that for a child interested in any pursuit at all?

Clicking on the first link which brings us to a Wikipedia page about a book, we can read about the book:

"Criticism focused on the book's style and oversimplified conceptualizations. Displeased with Gladwell's generalizations drawn from small amounts of data, Roger Gathman wrote in The Austin American-Statesman that this was uncharacteristic of him, and believed that the approach points to a "certain exhaustion in his favorite method".[14] He remarked that in Outliers, the experiments, analyses, and conclusions drawn are too mechanically applied to historical or cultural phenomena to "create a cognitive 'gotcha' moment", that Gladwell's analytical method was no longer working, and that "it's high time for Gladwell to produce something more challenging than his beautifully executed tomb robberies of old sociology papers."[14] Boyd Tonkin in The Independent held a similar opinion, and wondered why Gladwell "does not yet hold a tenured professorship at the University of the Bleedin' Obvious".[15]"

Moving on to that same authors Wikipedia page we see:

"Criticism of Gladwell tends to focus on lack of careful rigor, specifically falling prey to a variety of logical fallacies and cognitive biases."

Malcolm Gladwell is someone with a history degree, he may write interesting books with fancy titbits but he is hardly cutting edge when it proper analysis of children's development in relation to sport and music.

You can point to better examples than that surely?

Slideshowbob

brianthebard wrote: »

you have no way of proving that assertion though, which is why people can inject conjecture and opinion into their 'scientific' understanding of sports. All I can say is that it is possible to convert Type I muscle fibres to perform Type II fibres. This should tell you all you need to know about aerobic/anaerobic capacity.

I must disagree. I am sure Pete has not had and will continue to without difficulty have no difficulty in concluding that there is no way that his body has / will have the potential to reach TDF endurance levels, even if he lived and trained like a pro and had started at age -9 months even even!!

Granted the world is indeed eartly.

petethedrummer

brianthebard wrote: »

you have no way of proving that assertion though, which is why people can inject conjecture and opinion into their 'scientific' understanding of sports. All I can say is that it is possible to convert Type I muscle fibres to perform Type II fibres. This should tell you all you need to know about aerobic/anaerobic capacity.

So you are telling me that had I started early enough that I could have been the 10,000km athletics champion of the world or even of Ireland? I'd say I wouldn't win a club race had I started at age 1.

There are many examples of people turning up in cycling and being good at it out of the blocks. Because they were born with superior cardiovascular capacity. I was not and there is no way on this earthly world I could develop it. Are you suggesting the human body is endlessly adaptable? when it comes to speed an endurance?

Also, I don't want this to come across as me dissing cycling. It takes supreme dedication and mental toughness to seperate yourself from the other equally gifted athletes. But the skill level is not high. Sure look at denis menchov. He cycles like a drunk and he won a giro.

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I must disagree. I am sure Pete has not had and will continue to without difficulty have no difficulty in concluding that there is no way that his body has / will have the potential to reach TDF endurance levels, even if he lived and trained like a pro and had started at age -9 months even even!!

Granted the world is indeed eartly.

but there is no way. a short sprint is all i got.

tomasrojo

petethedrummer wrote: »

There is plenty of research that shows that to become world class on a musical instrument or a high skilled sports are as the result of an early start with constant good quality repetitive practice and not any god given/genetic gift.

I don't know much about becoming proficient in sport, but this isn't true for music. There are certain innate gifts that some individuals have and others don't. It's impossible to imagine becoming a concert-standard musician without a great deal of work, but it doesn't mean that anyone who puts in a great deal of work can become a concert-standard musician. Ask any music teacher and they'll tell you that some pupils make extraordinary progress in almost no time, while others plod along for years, barely improving.

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

You can point to better examples than that surely?

Of course its an over simplified version of what happens. But if you can point me to a study that shows that any human can reach TDF level fitness (And that study must not be conducted by Michele Ferrari), then I will concede that you are correct.

petethedrummer

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't know much about becoming proficient in sport, but this isn't true for music. There are certain innate gifts that some individuals have and others don't. It's impossible to imagine becoming a concert-standard musician without a great deal of work, but it doesn't mean that anyone who puts in a great deal of work can become a concert-standard musician. Ask any music teacher and they'll tell you that some pupils make extraordinary progress in almost no time, while others plod along for years, barely improving.

The time spent practising is an over simplification, it must be quality practise. And students may be plodding along because they aren't in fact practising and just turning up for lessons.

Slideshowbob

petethedrummer wrote: »

" It takes supreme dedication and mental toughness to seperate yourself from the other equally gifted athletes. But the skill level is not high. .

You think you don't need high neuromuscular Skills to be a good cyclist?
You think all that separated the TDf winners and second was dedication and mental toughness? I don't because physical ability is more fundamental

petethedrummer

Slideshowbob wrote: »

You think you don't need high neuromuscular Skills to be a good cyclist?

I suppose we'll have to define the term neuromuscular skill first. What do you mean by this neuromuscular skill. Its hard to find a proper definition for it on the web.

Slideshowbob wrote: »

You think all that separated the TDf winners and second was dedication and mental toughness? I don't because physical ability is more fundamental

No. I didn't say that.

lol, Actually I said something similar to that but it was an incomplete list of all things necessary

hinault

I agree with those posters who suggest that dedication/discipline count for a lot more than skill when it comes to being a good/great cyclist.

Having said that - and I don't like to name drop - I was great friends with Laurence Roche brother of you know who.
And in my racing career back then, I have never seen anyone race as smoothly as he did.
All the Roches just had this inate quality where they fit a bike perfectly.

Is this learned ? or is it just natural?
I think part of it is natural to be fair.
That is not to say that he didn't work extremely hard to achieve what he did.
He did work very hard.
But he had natural ability, skill if you like.

hinault

petethedrummer wrote: »

So you are telling me that had I started early enough that I could have been the 10,000km athletics champion of the world or even of Ireland? I'd say I wouldn't win a club race had I started at age 1.

There are many examples of people turning up in cycling and being good at it out of the blocks. Because they were born with superior cardiovascular capacity. I was not and there is no way on this earthly world I could develop it. Are you suggesting the human body is endlessly adaptable? when it comes to speed an endurance?

Also, I don't want this to come across as me dissing cycling. It takes supreme dedication and mental toughness to seperate yourself from the other equally gifted athletes. But the skill level is not high. Sure look at denis menchov. He cycles like a drunk and he won a giro.

Ullrich in 1996 and 1997 T'sDF was dreadful when it came to bike skills.
The man could not descend properly.
He took corners at a snails place. His angle of approach to said corner was all wrong.

Didn't stop him finishing 2nd on GC in 1996 and 1st on GC in 1997.

brianthebard

petethedrummer wrote: »

So you are telling me that had I started early enough that I could have been the 10,000km athletics champion of the world or even of Ireland? I'd say I wouldn't win a club race had I started at age 1.

There are many examples of people turning up in cycling and being good at it out of the blocks. Because they were born with superior cardiovascular capacity. I was not and there is no way on this earthly world I could develop it. Are you suggesting the human body is endlessly adaptable? when it comes to speed an endurance?

Also, I don't want this to come across as me dissing cycling. It takes supreme dedication and mental toughness to seperate yourself from the other equally gifted athletes. But the skill level is not high. Sure look at denis menchov. He cycles like a drunk and he won a giro.

Yes very much so. Now granted I can't prove it, but neither can you prove that if you had started at a year old it would have changed anything. So I guess we're about even in that regard. Without knowing the background of those newcomers, their training, goals, etc, its very hard to say that they dominated cycling out of the blue. Its far easier to surmise that they were training at endurance sports beforehand and thus found it relatively to transfer over.

Now, full disclosure, I don't believe in the genetic argument, which might and will be made in the next few pages of this thread, but generally speaking disregarding outliers I feel my argument holds firm.

petethedrummer

hinault wrote: »

But he had natural ability, skill if you like.

I thought the whole point of this debate was that skill was acquired and talent was genetic?

DirkVoodoo

brianthebard wrote: »

Once a person takes away their bias and love for a sport they will realise that dedication and discipline count far more than 'innate' skill than anything else. Moreover, innate skill can and is programmed into athletes. With the right amount of time training and will anyone can take up any sport and be very good at it. imo....

I don't think any amount of training or practice can make a mediocre footballer as good as Messi.

Some people are just naturally gifted and excel at a particular sport (or several!).

hinault

petethedrummer wrote: »

I thought the whole point of this debate was that skill was acquired and talent was genetic?

I'm convinced that what Laurence (and Stephen) had was genetic, having seen them up close.

petethedrummer

brianthebard wrote: »

Yes very much so. Now granted I can't prove it, but neither can you prove that if you had started at a year old it would have changed anything. So I guess we're about even in that regard. Without knowing the background of those newcomers, their training, goals, etc, its very hard to say that they dominated cycling out of the blue. Its far easier to surmise that they were training at endurance sports beforehand and thus found it relatively to transfer over.

No its far easier to surmise that Lemond was doing down hill skiing, Hinault was cycling to work and Fignon played a bit football. They all took up cycle racing and from the word go were awesome at it. Because they were genetically far superior. Had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis. Same goes if Fignon had grown up cycle racing all his life and then suddenly decided to switch to football.

And even if they had been doing endurance sports. what transferred over was their endurance and fitness not skill.

brianthebard

petethedrummer wrote: »

No its far easier to surmise that Lemond was doing down hill skiing, Hinault was cycling to work and Fignon played a bit football. They all took up cycle racing and from the word go were awesome at it. Because they were genetically far superior. Had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis. Same goes if Fignon had grown up cycle racing all his life and then suddenly decided to switch to football.

And even if they had been doing endurance sports. what transferred over was their endurance and fitness not skill.

Right and that's where the genetic outliers argument comes in. However I don't believe, and you have no way of proving, that 'had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis.'

You're right to say that their endurance and fitness transferred over, that was my argument all along.

adrianshanahan

The Skill of Cycling....

Why people on this topic being so narrow minded thinking road cycling is the be all / end all of cycling or even the peak of cycling ability?

There is no denying that the TDF cyclist are absolute cycling machines, but look at this and re consider your value of cycling skills...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z19zFlPah-o

or look at any top end Down Hill MTB race and see the skills on display there or even elite XC MTBers who combine technical cycling skills along with race and endurance.

But hey I'm not at this very long or any good so I wouldn't know very much.


Adrian

petethedrummer

adrianshanahan wrote: »

what adrian said

I was just thinking of all these examples as I was driving home from work. I'd agree they require high amounts of learned skill. Also Cadel Evan's handling skills helped him to a stage win in the Giro. But that stage and Paris Roubaix are an exception rather than the rule in road cycling.

petethedrummer

brianthebard wrote: »

However I don't believe, and you have no way of proving, that 'had lemond never skied and only ever cycled there is no way he would just have been world class from the moment he strapped on a pair of skis.'

We have proof in the fact that he skiied before he ever bike raced. And he's not a winter olympic gold medalists but a TDF winner. About 2 minutes in to this interview you will hear him say he downhill and freestyle skiied, fished, camped and went for cycles with his Dad. Then he took up cycle racing at 14 and won his first eleven races. Then asked to be moved up categories for a challenge.
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2006/08/20greg-lemond/

brianthebard

petethedrummer wrote: »

We have proof in the fact that he skiied before he ever bike raced. And he's not a winter olympic gold medalists but a TDF winner. About 2 minutes in to this interview you will hear him say he downhill and freestyle skiied, fished, camped and went for cycles with his Dad. Then he took up cycle racing at 14 and won his first eleven races. Then asked to be moved up categories for a challenge.
http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2006/08/20greg-lemond/

That's nowhere near proof. That just means he used to do a particular sport and now he does another. If anything it means that cycling was a less skillful sport and his previous experience meant he was able to transfer between the two easily. Perhaps if it was the other way around he would have needed more training to be as good as skiing.

petethedrummer

brianthebard wrote: »

If anything it means that cycling was a less skillful sport

which is what i have been saying all along. so we're on the same team? grand. I must go to sleep now.

brianthebard

petethedrummer wrote: »

which is what i have been saying all along. so we're on the same team? grand. I must go to sleep now.

afraid not because you've argued in favour of genetic skill and the suggestion that you would not be capable of being a better endurance athlete regardless of time spent training for such, which is pretty much the opposite of what I've argued.